Critique One of My Favorites

[rocknanchor]

Appraising a favorite quote, Surely, you must have one among several that could be considered?

Here’s one of mine, ,

You cannot have the indwelling [also infilling] without turning the [Church service] gavel to the Holy Spirit and you turn to a great truth, for the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ (John 16:7,14:26) – C.M. Ward

 

[rocknanchor]

Appraising a favorite quote, Surely, you must have one among several that could be considered?

Here’s one of mine, ,

You cannot have the indwelling [also infilling] without turning the [Church service] gavel to the Holy Spirit and you turn to a great truth, for the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ (John 16:7,14:26) – C.M. Ward

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you, ,But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, ,has set you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, , will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. (John 16:7, Acts 20:28, John 14:26)​

One thing we all agree on is this: Jesus did physically leave us, Hooray! Long-live the thing we agree on, NOT on things that divide us! But, as we know, that fundamental, victorious unity is short-lived. Let’s talk about it.

Some we must admit, are unavoidable, but, I suggest here the vast majority are quite infantile! Among the many things Brother Ward said in his lifetime, some, I hold in sharp disagreement. But this ‘truth’ as he says is as unfiltered as it gets.

For there are so many influences around that the young convert is faced with such a steep uphill battle that they would benefit far more from you who hold the truth if we could step back from the playing field just long enough to address some of these things that ends up distancing themselves from biblical truths.

The Elephant Issue, Doctrinal Bias Gone Bonkers

New Testament OS (‘Oversight’, Hebrews 13:7), or​

New Testament DH (‘Double-honor’, 1Timothy 5:17)?​

One of the first things to slap a new convert’s face is our UN-CHRISTIAN divide over the “Vicar”. A search within AI is futile;

Vicar: Pastor, Elder, Minister, Bishop, Deacon​

OS: Pastor, Elder, Minister, Bishop, Deacon​

AI tries to apply subtle variables to the differences of Church OS vs Vicar, but is incapable of removing them from those who are considered to be a ‘Vicar’. So the question remains over this issue that has done far more than just threatened unity which we are told over and over in the NT to keep. That question is, by the New Testament standard, how well has DH survived? We know Cephas (Peter) found error enough “to be blamed”, Has today’s DH found error? I just told you it does – divisions.

How do we know? Ask yourself, Does today’s DH demonstrate an approval for the excellence of 1 John 2:27, or treat it as “a lie”?

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.​

There may be other examples, but if those are sound, so will they be here, will either be shown to treat the ‘Vicar’ as worthy of far more than DH, or, well within the above NT bounds!

 

[rocknanchor]

What a trajectory of error it is to turn one’s back on the Holy Spirit’s choice of words for each of us “not to think more highly of himself than he ought”(Rom 12:3). Not only for the flock of God to heed, but OS who take part to exceed DH.

For that is all that is required is to take part in the dismantling spiritual communion, AKA: dreadful quenching of the Holy Spirit. Making it easy to sow the needed discord to garner more and more disciples. Spirit of Christ, recover in ourselves to forgive thoughts that has done this.

Just as the Apostle said following such actions, “when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat”. Behold what ease of calamity we grant from you guessed it, error-strapped OS.

How oft-comes the rebuttal; ‘the gates, the gates of hell are nowhere in overcoming sight!’ Oblivious, neither is the awareness, neither is the sensitivity to hear a thunderclap so long ago.

Revelation’s harlot, Babylon, does corrupt all, including the regular churched to welcome error when care is not upheld, to which God tells his own to reward her double to all she has rewarded you. DH (Double Honor) and DD (Double Dishonor). The correction here is not a grievous requirement.​

 

[rocknanchor]

So they continue to, ,

", , treat the ‘Vicar’ as worthy of far more than DH

It's the same old double-headed beast to bow to. To do so they not only must reject 1., The solo scriptura doctrine of the Holy Spirit shown here, but 2., frantically try to preserve the "flock's" tradition the Apostle said would be decimated after his departure. How unfortunate (sarc) the Apostle spoke and placed this inspiration of the Spirit that uproots confidence in much of any of the ancient tradition.

What is in effect since then? If they ", ,think more highly of himself than he ought, , it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat”. They are clearly an affront to the Holy Spirit's voice. To reduce His voice by this fallen tradition. They might as well say God is 'very' awesome, or 'highly' awesome. Fools! You only begin to scratch the surface when your works exalt Him as infinitely awesome. Even then, you are at His mercy. Repent!

 

[boughtwithaprice]

An interesting thread. May I ask questions to better understand your point?

Are you saying that tradition was decimated at the departure of Christ, so ancient traditions are suspect?

You also seem to say that there are overseers worthy of double honor. What qualifies one as an overseer? Are you advocating sola scriptura for all believers, or must we acknowledge that there are overseers worthy of double honor?

Sorry if I misunderstood you, peace be with you

 

[rocknanchor]

An interesting thread. May I ask questions to better understand your point?

Greetings 'BWAP'! Grace and peace in the presence of Christ! Surely!

Are you saying that tradition was decimated at the departure of Christ, so ancient traditions are suspect?

Oh my no, forgive me, the lack is all mine. The Apostle's departure and prophetic attack of Acts 20:29 is routinely made an insignificant spectacle. Highly underestimated by a good many for what potential of widespread damaging effect it has had on who knows how much of the Apostle's tradition-s.

You also seem to say that there are overseers worthy of double honor. What qualifies one as an overseer?

Amusing way you put that here, as yes, the argument could be made that too much of a good thing has wreaked havoc on our spiritual ear. What I would suggest has happened is along the spoils of HRM (hermeneutical application). Some HRM is good, but, as sometimes in study it can happen, the temptation to get caught up in un-checked use of HRM interpretation which I think, can unravel what God intended for the listeners of the WOF (word of faith) in it's unfiltered form to benefit (1Thess 2:13), for without the HOF (hearing of faith), HRM study would be championed as quite nearly the ONLY method thought to begin and end study with which only serves to bolster oneself away from those things that need no qualifications of HRM. In effect, if in the hands of the young, it wrest away the HOF. An example from the Orthodox, Catholic and some Protestant is they exhibit a low HOF for the Master's addressing the disciples as well as much of the epistles too such as the 'diminishing of gifts' other 'time-sensitive' instructions (1Cor 14:36).

So, the qualification for an overseer could himself be on a variable scale of growth short of 'full age' or 'fully furnished' which would not disqualify him necessarily, so long as he maintains a steadfast use of the WOF.

Are you advocating sola scriptura for all believers, or must we acknowledge that there are overseers worthy of double honor?

Have to say here that overseers DO maintain both solo scriptura AND to the best of their ability, let that same WOF further those traditions as seen.

Hope I haven't confused further! Blessings!

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Forgive me, I do not wish to make your thinking an amusement. I want to understand what you are saying.
Acts 20:29 does say that savage wolves will come in, and we can see it going on even today, but the verse does not say that the Apostles would become wolves themselves.
Would it not make sense for us, almost 2000 yrs later, to attempt to discern Apostolic teaching?

I like that you rely on the word of God and not necessarily the words of men. Scripture says we are to study to show ourselves approved, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

I came across a second century work by Iraneus, who was taught by Polycarp, who directly knew John the Apostle. It is called Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching. Are you familiar with it?
I believe that it is worth the read in light of today’s many hermeneutics.

What I got from it is that it is not outward appearances that count, but the complete denial of ourselves in following in Christs footsteps

I like the Assemblies of God in that they believe signs and wonders should follow those that believe. The Gospel is not proclaimed by logic alone. The problem I have is that signs and wonders alone can be deceiving. Scripture tells us that Antichrist will come with signs and wonders and be so convincing as to deceive the very elect. How are we to tell the difference and have proper discernment?

Blessings and peace to you form Our Lord Jesus Christ, and great topic for a thread. I would hope to continue a pleasant discussion with you

 

[rocknanchor]

Forgive me, I do not wish to make your thinking an amusement. I want to understand what you are saying.
Acts 20:29 does say that savage wolves will come in, and we can see it going on even today, but the verse does not say that the Apostles would become wolves themselves.
Would it not make sense for us, almost 2000 yrs later, to attempt to discern Apostolic teaching?

Your right on track, it would indeed make such sense. I should have worded more accurately, Apostle's prophetic soon-coming attack of wolves.

I like that you rely on the word of God and not necessarily the words of men. Scripture says we are to study to show ourselves approved, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

As you say later on, the word itself commenting on words and traditions of men and ''every wind of doctrine''. How much the commonwealth of the Church has soundly taken on so much baggage ''turned aside''.

I came across a second century work by Iraneus, who was taught by Polycarp, who directly knew John the Apostle. It is called Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching. Are you familiar with it?
I believe that it is worth the read in light of today’s many hermeneutics.

What I got from it is that it is not outward appearances that count, but the complete denial of ourselves in following in Christs footsteps

Fascinating!! No, un-familiar with that work. Only vaguely familiar with Iraneus, but not Polycarp. Did he have freedom to visit John on Patmos? Well yes, as the Gospel narrative of self-denial is repeated several times short of the Spirit's compelling remark for self-preservation, , (1Cor 11:22)

I like the Assemblies of God in that they believe signs and wonders should follow those that believe. The Gospel is not proclaimed by logic alone. The problem I have is that signs and wonders alone can be deceiving. Scripture tells us that Antichrist will come with signs and wonders and be so convincing as to deceive the very elect. How are we to tell the difference and have proper discernment?

Right! SO-glad to hear. Now you do recall the Apostle John did instruct to ''test the spirits to see whether they be of God''. Now that test it goes on is in the spirit's confession. I like how Jesus put it, we know them ''by their fruits'', not just by their spoken words. Almost all our teachers of renown will remark that false teachers will consistently stray from glorifying the risen Christ. I might add what Paul said of Satan's preacher's 'righteous' over-shot from the pulpit. (2Cor 11:15).

Blessings and peace to you form Our Lord Jesus Christ, and great topic for a thread. I would hope to continue a pleasant discussion with you

My-yes! Peace be multiplied to you and your's in that matchless name of Jesus Christ, to whom all glory rest. Eager to do the same. I may be a space receiving any additional as I know others as well as you do too. But thank you very much and God bless!