Censorship?

[Amo2]

You are absolutely entitled to your own opinions about how easily Catholics could have received aid from the Roman empire to establish a public education system. There is no historical record of the Apostles telling this to the bishops they appointed, or those bishops to their successors when Catholicism was formally adopted as a state religion by the Roman Empire in the 300s. I would not chastise them for not implementing your idea, they may very well have had other spiritual callings and pressing concerns. Remember the old saying: "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes."

Yes, I know of the many and main distractions professed Christians became involved in, the most prominent of which was competition for political favor and establishment within the Roman empire. A closer examination of the history of the proliferation of the holy scriptures, will no doubt be revealing.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is no historical record of the Apostles telling this to the bishops they appointed, or those bishops to their successors when Catholicism was formally adopted as a state religion by the Roman Empire in the 300s

Remember, this didn’t happen until the reign of Emperor Theodosius in the 380s, after he smashed the Altar of Victory and moved to ban Paganism and Arianism (perhaps emboldened by the successful vigil St. Ambrose organized in Milan in defiance of his own order to turn a basillica over to the Arians to prevent unrest).

Prior to that point, Christianity was the state religion only in Edessa, Armenia, Georgia and Ethiopia. After the death of St. Constantine, the Arians tried, and came very close to succeeding, at making Arianism the state religion of the Roman Empire, but ironically I would argue this was averted by Emperor Julian “the Apostate” who rejected not only Christianity but heretical forms of Christianity like Arianism, and released St. Athanasius and other Christian bishops from exile, hoping for the fireworks that this would cause - but there weren’t any, rather, the Arians were slowly and steadily corrected within the Roman Empire, so that most of the remaining Arian population consisted of Ostrogoths and Visigoths who had been mal-evangelized by Arian “missionaries” - the same tribes who would later sack Rome and kill so many Christians.

 

[Amo2]

Remember, this didn’t happen until the reign of Emperor Theodosius in the 380s, after he smashed the Altar of Victory and moved to ban Paganism and Arianism (perhaps emboldened by the successful vigil St. Ambrose organized in Milan in defiance of his own order to turn a basillica over to the Arians to prevent unrest).

Prior to that point, Christianity was the state religion only in Edessa, Armenia, Georgia and Ethiopia. After the death of St. Constantine, the Arians tried, and came very close to succeeding, at making Arianism the state religion of the Roman Empire, but ironically I would argue this was averted by Emperor Julian “the Apostate” who rejected not only Christianity but heretical forms of Christianity like Arianism, and released St. Athanasius and other Christian bishops from exile, hoping for the fireworks that this would cause - but there weren’t any, rather, the Arians were slowly and steadily corrected within the Roman Empire, so that most of the remaining Arian population consisted of Ostrogoths and Visigoths who had been mal-evangelized by Arian “missionaries” - the same tribes who would later sack Rome and kill so many Christians.

The main problem in all of the above, is that professed Christinas should become not only so divided, but actually mean spirited and violent toward each other. To the extent that the political arm of the state or empire should have to intervene to keep the peace. Thereby creating the longing among professed Christians for state or imperial favor and establishment. Imagine that, the world having to step in an take control of "Christianity" having become such a great disturber of the peace of nations. Not because they preached the gospel with power, but rather because they would not tolerate the freedom of other professed Christians to have some different views than their own. Which each side demonstrated when they had the imperial power to do so by forbidding the beliefs and teachings of the others, with penalties of banishment and death.

Jhn 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[Amo2]

If the claims of the above video are true, it would seem that Vatican and Russian Orthodoxy are definitely pro censorship. Basically forbidding the gospel to go forward, as various denominations might view it. I'll have to look deeper into this, to establish censorship or not. Anyone else have any insight or info in relation to this matter?

 

[Valletta]

Yes, I know of the many and main distractions professed Christians became involved in, the most prominent of which was competition for political favor and establishment within the Roman empire. A closer examination of the history of the proliferation of the holy scriptures, will no doubt be revealing.

Please name some of "the most prominent" Christians you are speaking of. What historical documents do you have from their times in regard to this "competition?"

 

[Valletta]

The main problem in all of the above, is that professed Christinas should become not only so divided, but actually mean spirited and violent toward each other. To the extent that the political arm of the state or empire should have to intervene to keep the peace. Thereby creating the longing among professed Christians for state or imperial favor and establishment. Imagine that, the world having to step in an take control of "Christianity" having become such a great disturber of the peace of nations. Not because they preached the gospel with power, but rather because they would not tolerate the freedom of other professed Christians to have some different views than their own. Which each side demonstrated when they had the imperial power to do so by forbidding the beliefs and teachings of the others, with penalties of banishment and death.

Jhn 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

This "longing" that you speak of, can you name some of the professed Christians who said they had such a "longing" and provide us some documentation?

 

[The Liturgist]

The main problem in all of the above, is that professed Christinas should become not only so divided, but actually mean spirited and violent toward each other.

The only people engaging in violence towards Christians in the fourth century towards Christians were Pagans and Arians - neither of whom were professed Christians. Arians are not Christians, because they deny the Incarnation and deity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and they persecuted us, not vice versa.

Indeed the amount of violence waged against Christians by Arians was extreme, including the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths and later the conquest of Italy by the Ostrogoths in the late sixth century.

Contrary to what your church asserts, there was no Christian on Christian violence. No violence between Christians happened on a large scale until the heretic Nestorius became Patriarch of Constantinople in the early fifth century and began persecuting Christians for using the word “Theotokos” in reference to the Blessed Virgin Mary, for which he was deposed, but not met with violence, at the Council of Ephesus, in 433 AD.

 

[Amo2]

Please name some of "the most prominent" Christians you are speaking of. What historical documents do you have from their times in regard to this "competition?"

Go to the following link and read and see for yourself -

Gibbons Decline & Fall & Christianity

Interesting quotes concerning “Christianity” from The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon All emphasis in following quotes is mine. My comments in blue. Chapter 3 Of the Constitution of the Roman Empire, in the Age of the Antonines. Part I The obvious...

www.christianforums.com

Or just ignore and declare all such as false history. There is plenty there to work with, and more to come from other sources when the examination of Gibbon's works is finished. Apart from this, I am not dancing to your tune, when you deny all such already provided and demand more or other historical documents or accounts.

 

[The Liturgist]

Go to the following link and read and see for yourself -

Gibbons Decline & Fall & Christianity

Interesting quotes concerning “Christianity” from The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon All emphasis in following quotes is mine. My comments in blue. Chapter 3 Of the Constitution of the Roman Empire, in the Age of the Antonines. Part I The obvious...

www.christianforums.com

Or just ignore and declare all such as false history. There is plenty there to work with, and more to come from other sources when the examination of Gibbon's works is finished. Apart from this, I am not dancing to your tune, when you deny all such already provided and demand more or other historical documents or accounts.

Or, you could find a contemporary, peer-reviewed work to support your claims not sourced from a flawed and dated 18th century work, which was impressive for the time, but Edward Gibbon was limited in his knowledge, or from the writings of 19th century leaders of your religion.

I don’t think its too much to ask for you to provide contemporary sources.

And also regarding your claim the Roman church killed over 100 million people during the Middle Ages, that remains entirely unsubstantiated - no support exists for that claim even from dated and flawed works of historians such as Gibbon.

Nor for your claim of large scale violence between Christians during the fourth century (since the violence was inflicted against Christians by Arians, who are not Christians according to the CF Statement of Faith because they reject the deity of Christ).

 

[Amo2]

This "longing" that you speak of, can you name some of the professed Christians who said they had such a "longing" and provide us some documentation?

Had they not such a longing, they would never have allowed an emperor to arbitrate and then dictate what is or is not authentic biblical doctrine or teaching for themselves or others. And then agree that such should be forced upon all by imperial command. Rather willing to suffer persecution for their faith, than surrender it to the kings or powers that be of this earth. As a great many did.

Apart from this, follow my previous advice in my last post as well. Why would you argue with this when I have already supplied you with a Papal Encyclical in which the Pope basically declared that Catholicism is in obvious favor of a united church and state. As long as that church is their own no doubt. Still, I will provide more such evidence yet. The following quote from Mirari Vos, On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism,
by Pope Gregory XVI - 1832, was in my post addressing the censorship supported by this same dicument.

20. Nor can We predict happier times for religion and government from the plans of those who desire vehemently to separate the Church from the state, and to break the mutual concord between temporal authority and the priesthood. It is certain that that concord which always was favorable and beneficial for the sacred and the civil order is feared by the shameless lovers of liberty.……………………………

 

[The Liturgist]

If the claims of the above video are true

They’re utter nonsense. The Orthodox Church in Russia coexists with many Protestant churches and the Vatican has no power to outlaw evangelism anywhere (except in the Vatican City State).

+

However, this raises a much more pressing question, however, why should other Christians be trying to “evangelize” Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholics? These are Christian denominations, contrary to the teachings of some 19th century Restorationists, and so there are no souls to be saved by evangelizing their members - we should be focused on converting members of various non-Christian cults like the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarian Universalists, and the atheists and irreligious, and heathens such as Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Confucians and other adherents of the demonic false religions, and not trying to “evangelize” our fellow Nicene Christians.

And frankly if anyone dared try to “convert” Roman Catholics to some random church in the public areas of the Vatican, I would fully support the Vatican arresting them, but alas these days the Vatican has gone from being too aggressive in prior centuries to being too timid when it comes to defending the faith.

Here is a recent video of a misguided “evangelist” accosting an Orthodox priest in Greece, along with his very charitable reactions to her conduct (real video of an actual event):

 

[Amo2]

Or, you could find a contemporary, peer-reviewed work to support your claims not sourced from a flawed and dated 18th century work, which was impressive for the time, but Edward Gibbon was limited in his knowledge, or from the writings of 19th century leaders of your religion.

I don’t think its too much to ask for you to provide contemporary sources.

And also regarding your claim the Roman church killed over 100 million people during the Middle Ages, that remains entirely unsubstantiated - no support exists for that claim even from dated and flawed works of historians such as Gibbon.

Nor for your claim of large scale violence between Christians during the fourth century (since the violence was inflicted against Christians by Arians, who are not Christians according to the CF Statement of Faith because they reject the deity of Christ).

Peer reviewed by who? As I have stated and asked on that thread before, which no one has taken to task including yourself, please do prove the historical information provided by Gibbons quoted to be wrong.

Nor is this topic concerning the number games of the martyred either, which I will gladly enter into again with you if you choose to start such a topic again. This thread however, is not about that topic. Nor do I intend to change the subject of it, as you please.

Deny the record of violence perpetrated both ways if you wish. This will change nothing. Not to worry, the truth will come out in the end.

Yes, I understand that those who think they have already fully comprehended God, think those who disagree with their views are or cannot be Christians. I will leave that one to God personally. You should be careful, I was just recently warned about the rules pertaining to not saying someone else is not a Christian. Though I was not sure where I did so. Perhaps though, such rules only apply to some of us, and not others.

 

[Amo2]

They’re utter nonsense. The Orthodox Church in Russia coexists with many Protestant churches and the Vatican has no power to outlaw evangelism anywhere (except in the Vatican City State).

+

However, this raises a much more pressing question, however, why should other Christians be trying to “evangelize” Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholics? These are Christian denominations, contrary to the teachings of some 19th century Restorationists, and so there are no souls to be saved by evangelizing their members - we should be focused on converting members of various non-Christian cults like the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarian Universalists, and the atheists and irreligious, and heathens such as Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Confucians and other adherents of the demonic false religions, and not trying to “evangelize” our fellow Nicene Christians.

And frankly if anyone dared try to “convert” Roman Catholics to some random church in the public areas of the Vatican, I would fully support the Vatican arresting them, but alas these days the Vatican has gone from being too aggressive in prior centuries to being too timid when it comes to defending the faith.

Here is a recent video of a misguided “evangelist” accosting an Orthodox priest in Greece, along with his very charitable reactions to her conduct (real video of an actual event):

The following link seems to disagree with your assessment.

Russia's Newest Law: No Evangelizing Outside of Church - Christianity Today

(UPDATE) Putin signs new restrictions that limit where and how Christians share the gospel.

www.christianitytoday.com

Quote below from link above.

Update (July 8): This week, Russian president Vladimir Putin approved a package of anti-terrorism laws that usher in tighter restrictions on missionary activity and evangelism.

Despite prayers and protests from religious leaders and human rights advocates, the Kremlin announced Putin’s approval yesterday. The amendments, including laws against sharing faith in homes, online, or anywhere but recognized church buildings, go into effect July 20.

Though opponents to the new measures hope to eventually appeal in court or elect legislators to amend them, they have begun to prepare their communities for life under the new rules, reported Forum 18 News Service, a Christian outlet reporting on the region.

The following link as well, with quote below it.

EEA calls to pray for “wisdom and courage” for Christians in Russia

“The European Evangelical Alliance is extremely concerned about Russia’s new anti-terrorism law, which greatly restricts religious freedom”. Evangelism is no longer allowed outside religious buildings.

cms.evangelicalfocus.com

“The European Evangelical Alliance is extremely concerned about Russia’s new anti-terrorism law, which greatly restricts religious freedom”. Evangelism is no longer allowed outside religious buildings.

On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed into law a controversial package of counterterrorism measures, including tougher sentences for extremism and heightened electronic surveillance of Russian citizens.

The European Evangelical Alliance explains that “sharing one’s faith will now be restricted to named members of registered organisations. Discussion about faith will only be able to take place in registered religious buildings.”

“All sharing of faith will be forbidden in homes. Informal witnessing between individuals is not allowed.”

“There are also restrictions on witnessing via social media.”

“If the law is broken, the fines to be paid are high”, the EEA explains.

It would be nice to be able to see the law for ourselves, if anyone knows where it may be viewed, if it can.

 

[Amo2]

They’re utter nonsense. The Orthodox Church in Russia coexists with many Protestant churches and the Vatican has no power to outlaw evangelism anywhere (except in the Vatican City State).

+

However, this raises a much more pressing question, however, why should other Christians be trying to “evangelize” Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholics? These are Christian denominations, contrary to the teachings of some 19th century Restorationists, and so there are no souls to be saved by evangelizing their members - we should be focused on converting members of various non-Christian cults like the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarian Universalists, and the atheists and irreligious, and heathens such as Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Confucians and other adherents of the demonic false religions, and not trying to “evangelize” our fellow Nicene Christians.

And frankly if anyone dared try to “convert” Roman Catholics to some random church in the public areas of the Vatican, I would fully support the Vatican arresting them, but alas these days the Vatican has gone from being too aggressive in prior centuries to being too timid when it comes to defending the faith.

Here is a recent video of a misguided “evangelist” accosting an Orthodox priest in Greece, along with his very charitable reactions to her conduct (real video of an actual event):

I am not a Nicene Christian, whether my denomination considers itself to be or not. I believe what I believe because of what holy scripture teaches, not what imperial, kingly, or various church councils have determined. There is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who are God. Call it the trinity if you like, though this is not a biblical term. Apart from this, I have no desire to make anyone see it exactly as I do, as though I or anyone else has now completely comprehended the Godhead. Which I believe is quite impossible.

 

[Valletta]

​

Author: Father John Flynn, LC

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH
Anti-Christian Censorship and New Media
Report Highlights Defects
By Father John Flynn, LC
ROME, 2 OCT. 2011 (ZENIT)
A report commissioned by the Virginia-based National Religious Broadcasters has revealed substantial problems in the way new media communications platforms treat religion.
Titled "True Liberty in a New Media Age: An Examination of the Threat of Anti-Christian Censorship and Other Viewpoint Discrimination on New Media Platforms," the report looked at many of the leading companies such as Google, Apple, Facebook and Twitter.
NRB is a non-partisan, international association of Christian communicators according to a description of its mission on its Web site.
While it is true that the new means of communications made possible by the Internet have opened up many possibilities for the exchange of ideas and opinions, at the same time the report expressed concern that a small number of large companies have a lot of control of this industry.
Anti-Christian Censorship and New Media | EWTN

 

[linux.poet]

AMBASSADOR HAT​

I am not a Nicene Christian, whether my denomination considers itself to be or not. I believe what I believe because of what holy scripture teaches, not what imperial, kingly, or various church councils have determined.

This website uses the Nicene creed to determine who is and is not a Christian. Do you at least believe the principles and Scripture references outlined below?

Statement of Faith​

The Nicene Creed​

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes​

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

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AMBASSADOR HAT OFF​