Israel is losing Americans (support)

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I’m not ignorant of middle eastern politics and as a former practicing jew I’m probably more conversant in their position than you’d assume. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean I must agree with or support Israel’s behavior and zionism is a subject well contested in jewish circles.



That isn’t for you or anyone else to decide. You have your position on the subject and they’re entitled to theirs. And from what I’ve observed the same holds true in this medium as well. The majority don’t support the war or what occurred nor the attempts to silence dissenters.

~bella

If you understand Middle East culture and politics, you know that without U.S. support, the consequences for Israel could be severe. You don’t need to support the Likud perspective on Middle Eastern affairs; I do not subscribe to it myself. However, I acknowledge that, despite the negative actions associated with Benjamin Netanyahu, the situation would likely deteriorate further if Hamas and other Arab nation get their way.

Protesters against Israel have the right to express their views, as the US allows freedom of protest in a democracy. But I disagree with them and think they lack the geopolitical understanding.

 

[mark46]

Most of the people protesting the war are doing so because of the level of killing and hardships palestinians are experiencing. Religious belief doesn’t alter that nor is it necessary to prefer one over the other but to address it as the Lord would. The absence of which has contributed to the problem as has our position in the conflict through the provision of weapons and resources and a level of influence over our government many find disconcerting.

You may not agree with their position and they’re unlikely to find yours to their taste. But it doesn’t make them hateful anymore than one could make a similar charge to you in light of your beliefs. I can’t say for certain if this is the issue that will divide us. But it’s certainly one that’s emboldened many to raise concerns and address subjects previously untouched.

We’ll see how it ends.

~bella

Unfortunately, many groups use their faith as an excuse for atrocious acts of violence against those of other faiths. This has been the way of countries and their politics for thousands of years.

 

[stevevw]

Most of the people protesting the war are doing so because of the level of killing and hardships palestinians are experiencing.

If this was the case then where is that same concern and outrage at other conflicts much, much worse levels of killing in other conflicts. Why this one and not others. Is it trendy or something. I cannot understand the logic.

Religious belief doesn’t alter that nor is it necessary to prefer one over the other but to address it as the Lord would. The absence of which has contributed to the problem as has our position in the conflict through the provision of weapons and resources and a level of influence over our government many find disconcerting.

I agree with all the nuance over the Isreal and Palestinian conflict. But I think there is something different to this conflict that is not applied to any other conflict. We know of much worse situations that have been going on for years and are happening right now even in surrounding nations to Isreal where not one protest has been made. The hypocracy is glaring.

Not only that right now Palestinians are being executed in the streets by Hamas and not a whimper or voice of protest. This is very telling. There is definitely bias and hypocracy and anti semetism is growing. A blind eye for Hamas and a super duper critical eye for Isreal. Hum.

It not that we should not point out wrongs but that this is being applied very selectively. Which speaks of some underlying reason which is not about equality or rights because otherwise we would be consistent and fair about this. Theres almost an over fixation on one particular people. While to be honest a complete under reporting and blind eye of the radicals. Its a strange phenomena.

You may not agree with their position and they’re unlikely to find yours to their taste. But it doesn’t make them hateful anymore than one could make a similar charge to you in light of your beliefs.

My position is that any abuses no matter where and by whom is wrong. But I give an even and fair and balanced view and don't single out particular situations over others for political or ideological reasons.

The one factor regardless of the right or wrong is the inconsistency and obvious bias that people are applying to one and not others. This in itself is evidence of ideology influencing peoples beliefs and views.

I can’t say for certain if this is the issue that will divide us. But it’s certainly one that’s emboldened many to raise concerns and address subjects previously untouched.

If everyone agreed that Hamas and other radicals were evil and should be stopped and not allowed to govern anything then we would all be better off. Simple as that.

Imagine that your neighbours were threatening and declaring every day to exterminate you and your family based on a radical belief and had attacked you many times. They have stated over and over that they will not allow your right to live where you are or exist anywhere on earth.

Would you protect yourself. Would you have a right to defend yourself.

Now imagine that for hypothetical reasons and not real. That say Canada did to the US what Hamas did to Isreal. Would there be a Canada left standing. I think people in the west who are gettiung involved have no idea whats going on and all sorts of lies are being told.

We’ll see how it ends.

~bella

Yes its a worry. The thing is do you honestly think that the real problem with the Isreali and Hamas conflict which is the issue of Islamists wanting to destroy not only Isreal but the west will go away.

Remember before Covid it was the Wests turn and all the radical groups were blowing up nightclubs, buildings. trans subways in Spain and Buses in London. Stabbing and running people down in the streets. Do you remember. The same crazy stuff as coming over a fense and mowing people down, raping and burning them and hacking them while laughing. Then celebrating and praising Allah. Do you remember.

This is the same radical ideology. Do you honestly think that Isreals problem is not our problem and if its not dealt with properly that we are not next. In fact its already happening. Theres a growing number actually siding with the radicals against their own nations. They are already winning.

 

[bèlla]

If you understand Middle East culture and politics, you know that without U.S. support, the consequences for Israel could be severe.

I think it’s important to let people draw their own conclusions on the subject. What one is willing to tolerate for the sake of a greater goal another will not. Given the contention regarding their presence and historical attachment to the land you’ll have divides. It isn’t necessary to be an expert to address an issue as a matter of conscience. There’s many things I oppose on account of my moral compass and I’m not alone in that.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

Not only that right now Palestinians are being executed in the streets by Hamas and not a whimper or voice of protest. This is very telling. There is definitely bias and hypocracy and anti semetism is growing.

It not that we should not point out wrongs but that this is being applied very selectively. Which speaks of some underlying reason which is not about equality or rights because otherwise we would be consistent and fair about this. Theres almost an over fixation on one particular people. While to be honest a complete under reporting and fixation of the radicals. Its a strange phenomena.

Have you forgotten Columbia University and the protests at schools around the country and the fallout that followed? Have you forgotten the legislation that came afterward and recent prohibitions on speech?

This was going to happen eventually. The war was the spark but the economy was the ammunition because it forced people to pay attention. It’s difficult to reconcile the resources going elsewhere while Americans are struggling. Which brings up the lobby and Israel’s influence on the government. Add in the pro-Israeli donations and business purchases by citizens and footage of Bibi meeting with American influencers to produce content on their behalf and you have a tsunami in the making.

And it bears repeating that jews are protesting too and it isn’t just the liberals.

If everyone agreed that Hamas and other radicals were evil and should be stopped and not allowed to govern anything then we would all be better off. Simple as that.

You can’t determine that for anyone beyond yourself. That’s your perspective and you’re entitled to your position. But you can‘t expect others to reach the conclusions you have.

This is the same radical ideology. Do you honestly think that Isreals problem is not our problem and if its not dealt with properly that its not going to us next. In fact its already happening. Theres a growing number actually siding with the radicals against their own nations. They are already winning.

I have never lost a moment of sleep over anything you proposed. Nor am I ignorant of our government's duplicity and propaganda. The boogeyman isn’t overseas and I don’t subscribe to the psychological machinations they employ. Fear is a powerful mechanism for subjugation. They’re somewhere behind closed doors laughing while people are wringing their hands in concern. That’s when you make mistakes and surrender your rights to be safe. We see where that got us in the past.

~bella

 

[durangodawood]

Israel needs a better spokesperson. Although Bibi N is an effective politician, his arrogant communication style appeals only to right-wing supporters and fails to reach a broader global audience.

Israel has many moderate and liberal parties, which has allowed Likud to maintain control since 2000. The country could benefit from leadership similar to Ehud Barak or Yitzhak Rabin.

I think the problem goes deeper than just style/personality.

 

[Desk trauma]

I think Israel abuses this position to count on USA support no matter what they do.

The Israelis were praised on the floor of congress after they strafed the Liberty. How can they not take our support granted?

 

[stevevw]

Have you forgotten Columbia University and the protests at schools around the country and the fallout that followed? Have you forgotten the legislation that came afterward and recent prohibitions on speech?

I can remember all the protests and especially on campuses. But I am not sure why you are asking me to remember them. I am saying that yes there have been crazy demonstrations, to the point of closing down universities and streets. To the point of chanting for the extermination of the Jews.

Thats my point. That for some reason there's this hyper fixation of Isreal and Jews that causes people to go to extremes compared to any other issue. Including ones that are much, much worse. Yet there is not the same level of moral outrage over these.

By the sounds of it I think we are agreeing and maybe just a communication thing.

This was going to happen eventually. The war was the spark but the economy was the ammunition because it forced people to pay attention. It’s difficult to reconcile the resources going elsewhere while Americans are struggling. Which brings up the lobby and Israel’s influence on the government. Add in the pro-Israeli donations and business purchases by citizens and footage of Bibi meeting with American influencers to produce content on their behalf and you have a tsunami in the making.

Hum. I think this has been happening before the war. Its no coincident that we have seen a rise in anti semetism. And by extension attacks on Christians. This is an ideological war.

And it bears repeating that jews are protesting too and it isn’t just the liberals.

The point is that this issue is all the rage full stop. Its strange and beyond what would normally be expected if we are a fair and even handed society. You can tell by the language such as words like genocide. Just like Trump and others are called Nazis. I find it strange that the most persecuted nation who is actually experiencing genocide is made out to the the committer of genocide.

The whole genocide narrative is a lie and part of the hate expressed towards the Jews. Because they are not committing genocide and the truth is there are nations and the radical Islamists like Hamas are the ones actually committing genocide and have actually declared this. Yet no one is calling them out or protesting.

Its a particular idea of the world as oppressors and victims. Even to the point where the radicals doing the terror are the victims rising up and the innocents. Its all turned on its head and truth are made into lies and lies the truth. The good guys are the bad guys and the bad guys the good.

Thats not to say that Isreal have done nothing wrong. But to say that the fixation is on Isreal and they have done nothing that any western nation would have done in the same situation. They are a free democractic nation and the only one in the area.

You can’t determine that for anyone beyond yourself. That’s your perspective and you’re entitled to your position. But you can‘t expect others to reach the conclusions you have.

I think we can determine some simple truths. I think everyone agrees for example that Hamas's actions on Oct 7th were evil and barbaric and this began the war. That Hamas is inhumane even to its own people and incapable of governing as a democracy under Hamas rule.

This is self evidence by Hamas's actions. No one to blame. Theres no excuse for the slaughter of innocents. And two wrongs don't make a right. WE can also determ ine that groups like Hamas will never be willing to have peace with Isreal. Will not allow them the right to exist. That they own mission statement declared they will never stop until Isreal is wiped of the face of the earth. These are facts no opinions.

I have never lost a moment of sleep over anything you proposed. Nor am I ignorant of our government's duplicity and propaganda. The boogeyman isn’t overseas and I don’t subscribe to the psychological machinations they employ. Fear is a powerful mechanism for subjugation. They’re somewhere behind closed doors laughing while people are wringing their hands in concern. That’s when you make mistakes and surrender your rights to be safe. We see where that got us in the past.

~bella

Its not I who are proposing this. This is coming from most of the best analysis fo the situation. In some ways at least as far as Europe and the US or Canada and Britain I think being in Oz gives a unique vantage point as far as the bigger picture is concerned. We see a world where antisemetism is rising. That is not a good health sign for any nation or world.

What seemed to be a reasonable united world in the west has broken down just like each nations has with all the identity politics and culture wars. But fundementally this is a spiritual battle coming down to good verses evil and the GOd of this world in Christ and the anti Christ which is the dark principalities that rule this world.

 

[bèlla]

.By the sounds of it I think we are agreeing and maybe just a communication thing.

No, we’re not on the same page at all nor am I defending them.

Hum. I think this has been happening before the war. Its no coincident that we have seen a rise in anti semetism. And by extension attacks on Christians. This is an ideological war.

I haven’t been under attack and I work in the public space and engage with many who doing the same. We’re all right. What are you experiencing?

The whole genocide narrative is a lie and part of the hate expressed towards the Jews. Because they are not committing genocide and the truth is there are nations and the radical Islamists like Hamas are the ones actually committing genocide and have actually declared this. Yet no one is calling them out or protesting.

You don’t believe it’s a genocide but others feel differently and they’re making themselves heard. Whether it divides the church remains to be seen.

Its not I who are proposing this. This is coming from most of the best analysis fo the situation. In some ways at least as far as Europe and the US or Canada and Britain I think being in Oz gives a unique vantage point as far as the bigger picture is concerned. We see a world where antisemetism is rising. That is not a good health sign for any nation or world.

That’s where we differ. Analysis has its place but I put my trust in God and run what they say through Him. Perhaps that’s why you’re feeling persecuted and others aren’t. We keep our focus on high and address events in prayer with Him in mind. When you take sides you bring in a different frequency and weaken your altar.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

@stevevw This was posted today. The Haredi have been standing against military enlistment for a while.

Netanyahu Faces ‘Revolt’: Unseen Clips Emerge As ‘Angry’ Israelis Storm Jerusalem Against IDF

Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews flood Jerusalem in mass defiance. Protesters chant “We’d rather go to jail!” as they reject Israel’s draft orders. Police deploy 2,000 officers; chaos grips city streets and transport systems. One protester killed after falling from a nearby construction site. Netanyahu’s fragile coalition faces collapse amid the raging exemption crisis.

 

[mark46]

@stevevw This was posted today. The Haredi have been standing against military enlistment for a while.

Netanyahu Faces ‘Revolt’: Unseen Clips Emerge As ‘Angry’ Israelis Storm Jerusalem Against IDF

Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews flood Jerusalem in mass defiance. Protesters chant “We’d rather go to jail!” as they reject Israel’s draft orders. Police deploy 2,000 officers; chaos grips city streets and transport systems. One protester killed after falling from a nearby construction site. Netanyahu’s fragile coalition faces collapse amid the raging exemption crisis.

Yes, the ultra-Orthodox refuse to fight for a government that negotiates with Palestinians. They want Gaza and the West Bank to annexed.

 

[stevevw]

@stevevw This was posted today. The Haredi have been standing against military enlistment for a while.

Netanyahu Faces ‘Revolt’: Unseen Clips Emerge As ‘Angry’ Israelis Storm Jerusalem Against IDF

Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews flood Jerusalem in mass defiance. Protesters chant “We’d rather go to jail!” as they reject Israel’s draft orders. Police deploy 2,000 officers; chaos grips city streets and transport systems. One protester killed after falling from a nearby construction site. Netanyahu’s fragile coalition faces collapse amid the raging exemption crisis.

I find this strange that once again people are choosing to highlight certain situations about Isreal and the Jews over many, many other issues. I am not saying that the Isrealis do stuff wrong.

But its the hypocracy of the moral outrage against one people when there are glaringly much worse situations which we don't here one word about. Or which are minimized against what is happening in Isreal.

For example as mentioned Hamas are executing Palestinians in the streets. People talk about the injustice of Isreal making the men help defend their nation. But then never mention the long list of injustices Hamas has done to its own people for decades.

IMagine if the US or my nation Australia where the government built bomb shelters and amunitions wharehouses under hospitals. Where US citizens were used as shields to save the government. Or where if your gay, trans or happen to believe in the wrong religion your either submitted to being a slave or thrown off a building. Which by the way is happening right now.

Yet there has never been a protest. Not before the conflict or after. If there were protests against Hamas before the conflict then perhaps we would not be in this situation.

But certainly there is a very, very imbalanced reporting and protesting of all this. To me when this happens. When theres a bias like this it clearly shows ideological belief and not facts or a true concern for justice for all. Its selective according to which people they think deserve more attention for ideological reasons.

Now this situation may be a real injustice. But we see these injustices even in the west and even then we don't fixate as much on one group.

But we also clearly see injustices happening of a much worse scale and stuff the west has moved on from for 100 years or more. That people don't even mention this of some groups and would rather highlight and make more of an issue of one group or nation.

You begin to see the pattern and really it makes everything that the protesters claim and get outraged about as nothing. Meaning absolutely nothing. Because they have already done that themselves. They have made real evil nothing so everything is nothing. Its just words, Its like the Boy who cried wolf.

 

[mark46]

I find this strange that once again people are choosing to highlight certain situations about Isreal and the Jews over many, many other issues. I am not saying that the Isrealis do stuff wrong.

But its the hypocracy of the moral outrage against one people when there are glaringly much worse situations which we don't here one word about. Or which are minimized against what is happening in Isreal.

For example as mentioned Hamas are executing Palestinians in the streets. People talk about the injustice of Isreal making the men help defend their nation. But then never mention the long list of injustices Hamas has done to its own people for decades.

IMagine if the US or my nation Australia where the government built bomb shelters and amunitions wharehouses under hospitals. Where US citizens were used as shields to save the government. Or where if your gay, trans or happen to believe in the wrong religion your either submitted to being a slave or thrown off a building. Which by the way is happening right now.

Yet there has never been a protest. Not before the conflict or after. If there were protests against Hamas before the conflict then perhaps we would not be in this situation.

But certainly there is a very, very imbalanced reporting and protesting of all this. To me when this happens. When theres a bias like this it clearly shows ideological belief and not facts or a true concern for justice for all. Its selective according to which people they think deserve more attention for ideological reasons.

Now this situation may be a real injustice. But we see these injustices even in the west and even then we don't fixate as much on one group.

But we also clearly see injustices happening of a much worse scale and stuff the west has moved on from for 100 years or more. That people don't even mention this of some groups and would rather highlight and make more of an issue of one group or nation.

You begin to see the pattern and really it makes everything that the protesters claim and get outraged about as nothing. Meaning absolutely nothing. Because they have already done that themselves. They have made real evil nothing so everything is nothing. Its just words, Its like the Boy who cried wolf.

There is a media slogan for this phenomenon "no Jews, no news"

No one cares how many folks are killed every day in the various wars in Africa and Asia, and in their autocracies. Christians and homosexuals are both being ethnically cleansed in Africa regularly.

I don't support the methods used by the IDF in Gaza or by the Israeli government in the West Bank. However, in the media and universities of the US, that's all we hear about. How many have been killed in the various wars in Africa and Asia? Americans neither know nor care. The media and universities get it wrong because they don't understand the Middle East. But, at least, there are sometimes open discussions in some media and on some campuses. About Africa and Asia: almost nothing unless Trump interferes to help end a conflict.

 

[stevevw]

There is a media slogan for this phenomenon "no Jews, no news"

Yes its go to a point that people can actually say out loud their bias and hate and its like just a normal everyday thing.

No one cares how many folks are killed every day in the various wars in Africa and Asia, and in their autocracies. Christians and homosexuals are both being ethnically cleansed in Africa regularly.

Yes I was going to mention this. There is actually a growing persecution of Christians and it never makes the headlines. In fact in some places it is near genocidal and still not a word. But not just Christians. Muslims are dying at the hands of Islamists and we know they have denied human rights for a long time.

Yet it seems these never make the news or have the same moral outrage. Which I think is very telling of ideological belief and not true equality and justice. It sort of devalues these truths and its just one big blurry line of evil and good conflated with each other.

I don't support the methods used by the IDF in Gaza or by the Israeli government in the West Bank. However, in the media and universities of the US, that's all we hear about.

Which sort of questions whether everything being told is actual fact or truth. If there is a hyper focus on one side with obvious bias then this undermines the credibility of what is claimed. I think we need to know all the facts in reality before we start to go off based on something that may be a false representation.

How many have been killed in the various wars in Africa and Asia. Americans neither know nor care. The media and universities get it wrong because they don't understand the Middle East. But, at least, there is sometimes open discussions in some media and on some campuses. About Africa and Asia: almost nothing unless Trump interferes to help end a conflict.

I really think it goes deeper and even spiritual warfare. Theres something archetypal and fundemental going on that seems to evoke something more. In someways the Jews are seen as the ultimate bad identity group. Representing everything the world hates for various reasons.

But then its no different to how Islamaphobia was also a thing and still is. But these identity politics and ideology is getting worse and it seems Isreal is a common taregt of hate.

Its interesting how through history we can see Isreal and the Jews being the target over and over again. Probably the most persecuted people in history. Yet no recognition while at the same time a complete one sided narrative against them. Why is this. It does not warrant such fixation compared to others.

 

[bèlla]

I find this strange that once again people are choosing to highlight certain situations about Isreal and the Jews over many, many other issues. I am not saying that the Isrealis do stuff wrong.

I’m not “people” and I shared the piece because it isn’t covered in mainstream news. The standoffs have grown increasingly violent but their position remains unchanged. They won’t fight for the zionists. But you ignored that for a long winded complaint.

For example as mentioned Hamas are executing Palestinians in the streets. People talk about the injustice of Isreal making the men help defend their nation. But then never mention the long list of injustices Hamas has done to its own people for decades.

I’m aware of the executions and who they’re killing and why it’s happening. Much like I’m aware of the provocateurs Israel stationed inside of Gaza. Your position is juvenile. That’s how children talk. We don’t have to cite one or the other when an issue is raised. The topic was the ultra orthodox men’s refusal to fight. Not Hamas, media bias, etc.

It isn’t off-topic. We’ve seen similar behavior in other wars. Zelensky is experiencing the same right now. But you can’t discuss it because it doesn’t make them look good. Which does for nothing for your position. At any rate I’m done.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

Yes, the ultra-Orthodox refuse to fight for a government that negotiates with Palestinians. They want Gaza and the West Bank to annexed.

Greater Israel was always the plan. The Trump Gaza video is his confirmation that we’re on board. You don’t produce things like that when you want a 2 state solution. The ultra-orthodox are exempt from war but they need more soldiers and their families are larger.

~bella

 

[ralliann]

Greater Israel was always the plan. The Trump Gaza video is his confirmation that we’re on board. You don’t produce things like that when you want a 2 state solution. The ultra-orthodox are exempt from war but they need more soldiers and their families are larger.

~bella

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution. From the river to the sea.. Greater Palestine has always been the plan.

 

[mark46]

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution. From the river to the sea.. Greater Palestine has always been the plan.

Yup
Arafat was offered a Palestinian state and refused.