Lets have an open discussion on Heaven.

[impressedquote194]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

 

[RandyPNW]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

There are a number of self-proclaimed prophets who claim to have been there, and have described it in some detail. I heard from one on Elijah Streams, and thought it interesting. I have no idea how real it is, or if it's symbolic, or whatever. But Paul did claim to have gone to the 3rd heaven, whatever that is.

Personally, I focus on the New Earth, which I think will be somewhat like the present earth because we've been told that the present earth will exist forever. But it will become a "new earth" at some point, indicating some major changes.

The new earth will have an enormous city of Jerusalem, reaching up into outer space. But again, this could be symbolic. I'm interested in comments....

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There are a number of self-proclaimed prophets who claim to have been there, and have described it in some detail. I heard from one on Elijah Streams, and thought it interesting.

There is no more prophets, and no more prophecies as the Bible is finished with the book of Revelation.

We know from the Bible those who met the resurracted Christ fell to the ground like dead. And Paul said the things he saw in Heaven should not be speaked of, yet we have all these false prophets today and who claim to been in Heaven.

 

[Jerry N.]

The descriptions of heaven in the Bible with singing, music, worship, beauty, and feasting are wonderful, but I think there will be much more going on. We are made in God’s image, and part of that is being creative. I think we will be engaged in making and inventing things without the human tendency for greed and corruption. Maybe we will be busy terraforming and making works of art and building magnificent structures, all without creating waste and pollution. We will also be engaged in our relationships with animals and plants. We will also work together in unity. It will be anything but boring.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

Floaty puff clouds, vaccuum of space, this is heaven.

The heaven beyond this heaven is that place with God and the glassy sea in it.

when the sky heaven rolls back, everyone will see it, but panic.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Some saints have had visions of heaven.

These Saints Had Visions of Heaven and Hell and Revealed What They Saw

During their lifetimes, some saints were given a peek into the happiness of heaven and the horrors of hell.

www.ncregister.com

St. Faustina on Heaven

Less than a century ago, St. Faustina Kowalska recorded her vision of heaven in her Diary entry for Nov. 27, 1936:

Today I was in heaven, in spirit, and I saw its unconceivable beauties and the happiness that awaits us after death. I saw how all creatures give ceaseless praise and glory to God. I saw how great is happiness in God, which spreads to all creatures, making them happy; and then all the glory and praise which springs from this happiness returns to its source; and they enter into the depths of God, contemplating the inner life of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whom they will never comprehend or fathom. This source of happiness is unchanging in its essence, but it is always new, gushing forth happiness for all creatures. Now I understand St. Paul, who said, ‘Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those who love him.’
God has given me to understand that there is but one thing that is of infinite value in His eyes, and that is love of God; love, love and once again, love; and nothing can compare with a single act of pure love of God. Oh, with what inconceivable favors God gifts a soul that loves Him sincerely!
The sight of this great majesty of God, which I came to understand more profoundly and which is worshipped by the heavenly spirits according to their degree of grace and the hierarchies into which they are divided, did not cause my soul to be stricken with terror or fear; no, no, not at all! My soul was filled with peace and love, and the more I come to know the greatness of God, the more joyful I become that He is as He is. And I rejoice immensely in His greatness and am delighted that I am so little because, since I am little, He carries me in His arms and holds me close to His Heart.

Some saints have had visions of Purgatory, which I certainly believe exists.

St. Catherine of Genoa's vision of Purgatory

After having received a vision of purgatory, St. Catherine of Genoa could not say enough about the happiness which is to be found there. Of course, the Saint did not mince words about the pain souls experience as well. In her treatise on purgatory, she wrote, “I believe no happiness can be found...

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Upon death, the soul sees itself as it really is and it sees it in contrast to what it was created to be. And it is the latter, that is, what the soul was created to be, which St. Catherine of Genoa refers to this as the “beatific instinct.” This beatific instinct is the capacity or desire each person was created with to love God; and with each person this beatific instinct varies. For instance, even if I were to be perfect in what God created me to be, my beatific instinct or capacity to love God would never equal that of the Blessed Virgin’s. As stars in the night sky have a different capacity to shine, souls are created with a different capacity to love God in heaven. In any case, the soul in purgatory sees – as if in an instant – his sins and how far away he had fallen from what he was created to be.

It needs to be said, however, that purgatory is not a state of lamenting sins. According to St. Catherine, focusing on past sins would be a form of imperfection. As such, “They cannot turn their thoughts back to themselves, nor can they say, ‘Such sins I have committed for which I deserve to be here,’ nor, ‘I would that I had not committed them for then I would go now to Paradise’, nor, ‘That one will leave sooner than I,’ nor, ‘I will leave sooner than he.’” Therefore, after having seen its sins and imperfections upon death, the soul no more considers them. From here on out, the object of the soul’s vision and orientation is the beauty and glory of God.

Then of course there is the miserable subject of Hell. I think the three children at Fatima in 1917 were given a real vision of Hell.

Next, the children saw a vision of hell as Lucia later related: “Rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw as it were a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals.

There's a big difference between them.

 

[concretecamper]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

Christ has a physical glorified human body. You gotta factor that into your thinking.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

This is what the Bible says about heaven:

A. NAME

The city is called by the name New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2).

B. SIZE
The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs (Revelation 21:16). The city is perfectly square. Its perimeter is 12,000 furlongsequivalent to 1,500 miles. It is 375 miles long on each side!

C. WALLS
The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. The wall was made of jasper (Revelation 21:17, 18 NIV). A wall standing at 144 cubitsthat’s 216 feet high!surrounds the city. The wall is made of solid jasper, with a radiance and beauty beyond description. Think of it: nearly 20 stories high and solid jasper!

D. GATES
It had a great, high wall with twelve gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl (Revelation 21:12, 13, 21 NIV).

E. FOUNDATIONS
The wall of the city had twelve foundations decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst (Revelation 21:14, 19, 20 NIV). The city has 12 full, complete foundationseach one made of precious stone. Every color of the rainbow is represented, so at a distance the city will appear to be resting upon a rainbow.

F. STREETS
The street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass (Revelation 21:21).


G. APPEARANCE
The Holy City prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide (Revelation 21:2, 11, 16 NIV). The city, with all of its precious stones, gold, and shimmering beauty, will be lighted with the glory of God. Its breathtaking majesty and purity is compared to a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Tree of Life

In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Revelation 22:2).

Take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).

Heaven will descend to the earth (after the millennium and all sin and sinners destroyed forever)

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:2).

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5).

The righteous will be recompensed on the earth (Proverbs 11:31).

Promises to those who receive eternal life:

A. The Lord, in person, will live with them (Revelation 21:3).

B. They will never become bored. There will be pleasures forevermore (Psalm 16:11).

C. There will be no more death, pain, tears, sorrow, sickness, hospitals, operations, tragedy, disappointment, trouble, hunger, or thirst (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 65:23; Revelation 7:16).

D. They will not get tired (Isaiah 40:31).

E. Every person will be physically whole in every way. The deaf will hear, the blind will see, and the paralyzed will run (Isaiah 35:5, 6; Philippians 3:21).

F. Jealousy, fear, hatred, falsehood, envy, impurity, cynicism, filth, worry, and all evil will not exist in God’s kingdom (Revelation 21:8, 27; 22:15). People will no longer be burdened with the worries and cares that distract and damage them. There will be no more anxiety. Time will become eternity, and the pressures and deadlines of earth today will be gone forever.

How it will differ from our earth now


A. Vast oceans as we know them today will be gone (Revelation 21:1). Today, oceans cover about 70 percent of the earth’s surface. This will not be the case in God’s new kingdom. The whole world will be one huge garden of unsurpassed beauty, interspersed with lakes, rivers, and mountains (Revelation 22:1; Acts 3:20, 21).

B. Deserts will be replaced with gardens (Isaiah 35:1, 2).

C. Every animal will be tame. No creaturewolves, lions, bears, etc.will prey upon others, and little children will lead them (Isaiah 11:6–9; Isaiah 65:25).

D. There will be no more curse (Revelation 22:3). The curse of sin, as detailed in Genesis 3:17–19, will be no more.

E. There will be no more violence of any kind (Isaiah 60:18). This includes no more crime, storms, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, injury, etc.

F. Nothing defiling will be found (Revelation 21:27). There will be no drunkenness, taverns, alcoholic beverages, brothels, pornography, or any other impurity of any kind in the new kingdom.

How people will spend their time in heaven


A. Sing and play heavenly music (Isaiah 35:10; 51:11; Psalm 87:7; Revelation 14:2, 3).

B. Worship before Jesus every Sabbath (Isaiah 66:22, 23).

C. Enjoy never-fading flowers and trees (Ezekiel 47:12; Isaiah 35:1, 2).

D. Visit with loved ones, ancestors, Bible characters, etc. (Matthew 8:11; Revelation 7:9–17).

E. Study the animals of paradise (Isaiah 11:6–9; 65:25).

F. Travel and explore without ever becoming weary (Isaiah 40:31).

G. Listen to God sing (Zephaniah 3:17).

H. Experience their deepest desires (Psalm 37:3, 4; Isaiah 65:24).

I. And the greatest joy of allenjoy the privilege of being like Jesus, traveling with Him, and seeing Him face to face! (Revelation 14:4; 22:4; 21:3; 1 John 3:2).

A Colossal City in Space

Heaven is a real place, and it is the ultimate hope for believers.

www.amazingfacts.org

 

[The Liturgist]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

Well, we have Heaven, which is the place where the souls of the righteous repose u til the last judgement, and also a few (St. Moses, St. Elijah and the our most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, who the early church records was taken up into Heaven after her death, which is commemorated by the traditional liturgical churches including the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, high church Anglicans and some Lutherans on August 15th, although this is an ancient Orthodox doctrine, the Roman Catholic church did not officially declare it dogmatic until the 1950s under Pope Pius XII despite having celebrated it liturgically for centuries, which from an Orthodox perspective is strange, because we do not celebrate anything in the liturgy that is not dogmatic).

Then there is the World to Come, in which the Elect in Christ will live in resurrection eternally.

There is some description of it in Revelation.

The Orthodox take the view that the outer darkness would be a final mercy on the part of God for any who continue to hate Him - since in the World to Come, we will be illuminated by God’s love, which is a consuming fire, but for those who have resolved to hate Him, they would experience His love as wrath due to being aligned against Him, and thus it would be an unbearable torture, thus, God will spare them that by not forcing them to be with Him, just as we don’t believe he forces anyone to love Him. This is different from the Calvinist perspective, for example. St. John Chrysostom, the fourth / early fifth century Patriarch of Constantinople, who is widely considered the greatest preacher of all time, pointed out that missing out on the joy of the World to Come would be the worst possible torment, but these people might choose it anyway. I quite like what CS Lewis had to say on the subject, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”

 

[The Liturgist]

Christ has a physical glorified human body. You gotta factor that into your thinking.

Indeed - and furthermore, we know that there are some glorified saints who are physically with Him in Heaven even now - the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Elias (Elijah), St. Moses, possibly St. Enoch, and others we may not know about.

The others are with him as pneumatic beings until the Resurrection. However given the eternal nature of God, we should not fear any kind of long period of heavenly boredom before the resurrection.

 

[The Liturgist]

This is what the Bible says about heaven:

A. NAME

The city is called by the name New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2).

B. SIZE
The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs (Revelation 21:16). The city is perfectly square. Its perimeter is 12,000 furlongsequivalent to 1,500 miles. It is 375 miles long on each side!

C. WALLS
The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. The wall was made of jasper (Revelation 21:17, 18 NIV). A wall standing at 144 cubitsthat’s 216 feet high!surrounds the city. The wall is made of solid jasper, with a radiance and beauty beyond description. Think of it: nearly 20 stories high and solid jasper!

D. GATES
It had a great, high wall with twelve gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl (Revelation 21:12, 13, 21 NIV).

E. FOUNDATIONS
The wall of the city had twelve foundations decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst (Revelation 21:14, 19, 20 NIV). The city has 12 full, complete foundationseach one made of precious stone. Every color of the rainbow is represented, so at a distance the city will appear to be resting upon a rainbow.

F. STREETS
The street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass (Revelation 21:21).


G. APPEARANCE
The Holy City prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide (Revelation 21:2, 11, 16 NIV). The city, with all of its precious stones, gold, and shimmering beauty, will be lighted with the glory of God. Its breathtaking majesty and purity is compared to a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Tree of Life

In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Revelation 22:2).

Take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).

Heaven will descend to the earth (after the millennium and all sin and sinners destroyed forever)

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:2).

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5).

The righteous will be recompensed on the earth (Proverbs 11:31).

Promises to those who receive eternal life:

A. The Lord, in person, will live with them (Revelation 21:3).

B. They will never become bored. There will be pleasures forevermore (Psalm 16:11).

C. There will be no more death, pain, tears, sorrow, sickness, hospitals, operations, tragedy, disappointment, trouble, hunger, or thirst (Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 65:23; Revelation 7:16).

D. They will not get tired (Isaiah 40:31).

E. Every person will be physically whole in every way. The deaf will hear, the blind will see, and the paralyzed will run (Isaiah 35:5, 6; Philippians 3:21).

F. Jealousy, fear, hatred, falsehood, envy, impurity, cynicism, filth, worry, and all evil will not exist in God’s kingdom (Revelation 21:8, 27; 22:15). People will no longer be burdened with the worries and cares that distract and damage them. There will be no more anxiety. Time will become eternity, and the pressures and deadlines of earth today will be gone forever.

How it will differ from our earth now


A. Vast oceans as we know them today will be gone (Revelation 21:1). Today, oceans cover about 70 percent of the earth’s surface. This will not be the case in God’s new kingdom. The whole world will be one huge garden of unsurpassed beauty, interspersed with lakes, rivers, and mountains (Revelation 22:1; Acts 3:20, 21).

B. Deserts will be replaced with gardens (Isaiah 35:1, 2).

C. Every animal will be tame. No creaturewolves, lions, bears, etc.will prey upon others, and little children will lead them (Isaiah 11:6–9; Isaiah 65:25).

D. There will be no more curse (Revelation 22:3). The curse of sin, as detailed in Genesis 3:17–19, will be no more.

E. There will be no more violence of any kind (Isaiah 60:18). This includes no more crime, storms, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, injury, etc.

F. Nothing defiling will be found (Revelation 21:27). There will be no drunkenness, taverns, alcoholic beverages, brothels, pornography, or any other impurity of any kind in the new kingdom.

How people will spend their time in heaven


A. Sing and play heavenly music (Isaiah 35:10; 51:11; Psalm 87:7; Revelation 14:2, 3).

B. Worship before Jesus every Sabbath (Isaiah 66:22, 23).

C. Enjoy never-fading flowers and trees (Ezekiel 47:12; Isaiah 35:1, 2).

D. Visit with loved ones, ancestors, Bible characters, etc. (Matthew 8:11; Revelation 7:9–17).

E. Study the animals of paradise (Isaiah 11:6–9; 65:25).

F. Travel and explore without ever becoming weary (Isaiah 40:31).

G. Listen to God sing (Zephaniah 3:17).

H. Experience their deepest desires (Psalm 37:3, 4; Isaiah 65:24).

I. And the greatest joy of allenjoy the privilege of being like Jesus, traveling with Him, and seeing Him face to face! (Revelation 14:4; 22:4; 21:3; 1 John 3:2).

A Colossal City in Space

Heaven is a real place, and it is the ultimate hope for believers.

www.amazingfacts.org

Those verses are mostly speaking of the World to Come, not Heaven, also known as Abraham’s Bosom, where, contra the beliefs of some denominations, the souls of those who repose in Christ are alive in Christ.

 

[The Liturgist]

The descriptions of heaven in the Bible with singing, music, worship, beauty, and feasting are wonderful, but I think there will be much more going on. We are made in God’s image, and part of that is being creative. I think we will be engaged in making and inventing things without the human tendency for greed and corruption. Maybe we will be busy terraforming and making works of art and building magnificent structures, all without creating waste and pollution. We will also be engaged in our relationships with animals and plants. We will also work together in unity. It will be anything but boring.

Indeed - also we should consider eternal does not mean linear time continuing ad infinitum - we can look forward to no longer being bound to time in a one dimensional way, but to eternal life, such as God has now, for God became man so that man could become god (St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione, circa 433 AD - St. Athanasius was the main defender of the Incarnation and the Trinity in the fourth century against the Arians and also originated our 27 book New Testament canon). What he meant with that provocative statement is clarified as “we become through grace what Christ is by nature” - sons of God by adoption - not actual members of the Trinity, but we do inherit everlasting life. In the Orthodox Church we sing the Galatians 3:27 “all ye that are baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. GW. Clearly, all of you who were baptized in Christ's name have clothed yourselves with Christ.” as the hymn “whoever has been baptized in Christ has put on Christ, alleluia!” on the feast of the Baptism of our Lord on January 6th.*


* The Syriac Orthodox also sing Galatians 1:8-9 as a cheerful hymn before reading any of the epistles of St. Paul, which I quite like.

 

[The Liturgist]

What is it like? is it a glorified city in the stars? i personally think it is an immaterial place that existed before god created the material universe. it is gods presence and spiritual in nature.

As my friend @concretecamper said, remember that God became incarnate, putting on our human flesh, when Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, became Man for our salvation (see John 1:1-18, Luke ch. 1-2, and Matthew ch. 1-3, among other sections; the Incarnation is a fairly central doctrine).

The Syriac Orthodox theologian St. Severus of Antioch composed a beautiful hymn, which was adopted in the Eastern Orthodox church by Justinian (as a result some Eastern Orthodox think Emperor Justinian wrote it, but this is improbable; likewise some Armenians think St. Athanasius wrote it, but we have no record of the hymn before the late fifth / early sixth century, and its presence in the Armenian liturgy appears to be connected to the partial Byzantinization of their liturgy when the Armenian and Georgian chruches came close to reuniting under Byzantine Imperial influence before the Armenians came under Latin influence and then later returned to the mainsteam of Oriental Orthodoxy):

Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary;
Who without change didst become man and was crucified;
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Those verses are mostly speaking of the World to Come, not Heaven, also known as Abraham’s Bosom, where, contra the beliefs of some denominations, the souls of those who repose in Christ are alive in Christ.

World to come is not heaven? ?? This must be one of those things not found in Scripture, but based on traditions.

If the parable of Lazurus is literal how many people can fit in Abraham's bosom. I imagine only 1 or 2 people, thats not many souls.

No wonder why Jesus said the dead in Christ do not raise until the Second Coming of Jesus.

1 Thes 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Hentenza]

Indeed - and furthermore, we know that there are some glorified saints who are physically with Him in Heaven even now - the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Elias (Elijah), St. Moses, possibly St. Enoch, and others we may not know about.

The others are with him as pneumatic beings until the Resurrection. However given the eternal nature of God, we should not fear any kind of long period of heavenly boredom before the resurrection.

Don’t forget about the martyrs under the altar (Rev. 6:9).

 

[Dan Perez]

There are a number of self-proclaimed prophets who claim to have been there, and have described it in some detail. I heard from one on Elijah Streams, and thought it interesting. I have no idea how real it is, or if it's symbolic, or whatever. But Paul did claim to have gone to the 3rd heaven, whatever that is.

Personally, I focus on the New Earth, which I think will be somewhat like the present earth because we've been told that the present earth will exist forever. But it will become a "new earth" at some point, indicating some major changes.

The new earth will have an enormous city of Jerusalem, reaching up into outer space. But again, this could be symbolic. I'm interested in comments....

When looking at the heaven , it is billion of miles either way But in 1 Cor 2:9 it says that But just as it has been written ''

Things which. the EYE did not SEE. and the EAR did not hear and did not COME UPON. the HEART of Man the things

God has prepared for. the Ones loving Him. ,

And in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 , we will GOVERN the Gods UNIVERSE

And in verse 3 we will GOVERN ANGELS.

And ONLY those in. the BODY OF Christ will be there !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

When looking at the heaven , it is billion of miles either way But in 1 Cor 2:9 it says that But just as it has been written ''

Things which. the EYE did not SEE. and the EAR did not hear and did not COME UPON. the HEART of Man the things

God has prepared for. the Ones loving Him. ,

And in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 , we will GOVERN the Gods UNIVERSE

And in verse 3 we will GOVERN ANGELS.

And ONLY those in. the BODY OF Christ will be there !!

dan p

Rev 21.16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.

I found it interesting that the city appears to be tremendously high, or over 1300 miles! Outer Space is only about 50 miles above the earth, and satellites placed over 100 miles above the earth.

But I don't know how much beyond the earth will concern Man in eternity? With respect to governing angels, I think we need to be careful. They are greater creatures than Man, but on earth we have authority over them with respect to those angels who transgress God's laws.

And so, our role as "governors" is basically to ensure lawless angels stay out forever, including during the Millennium when lawless people will still roam on earth. Of course, some do not believe in a future Millennium, so there's that.

Since I think the seas are removed as large barriers between people groups I think there will be plenty of land for the entire population of saints from Genesis to Revelation. I think our work in the Kingdom will consist of our current gifts, distributed individually, but at a very high level of production.

The work will be tireless and enjoyable, producing both for God and for Mankind. There will be no limit to the creativity within the sphere of earth, and perhaps even in outer space.

 

[The Liturgist]

Don’t forget about the martyrs under the altar (Rev. 6:9).

Well the thing about those martyrs, is that since no prophecy is of any private exposition, according to 2 Peter 1:20, we don’t know to what extent Revelation is speaking about Heaven, or the World to Come, and to what extent it is typological or metaphorical and to what extent it is literal, except insofar as the early church did at the Council of Constantinople intend to exclude Chiliasm, after the fourth century fathers realized that such an interpretation was a misreading (in contrast to some 2nd century fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons who believed in it - but church fathers are individually not infallible, for example, there exists a very minor disagreement between St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great over the pastoral care of military veterans, with most people likely supporting St. Athanasius, but some pacifists would likely support St. Basil, and since the issue is not formally resolved, it remains in the realm of theologoumemna (or what the Lutherans might call Adiaphora). Or on a more serious note, where a church father made actual errors, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian expressed support for Apokatastasis.

 

[RandyPNW]

Well the thing about those martyrs, is that since no prophecy is of any private exposition, according to 2 Peter 1:20, we don’t know to what extent Revelation is speaking about Heaven, or the World to Come, and to what extent it is typological or metaphorical and to what extent it is literal, except insofar as the early church did at the Council of Constantinople intend to exclude Chiliasm, after the fourth century fathers realized that such an interpretation was a misreading (in contrast to some 2nd century fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons who believed in it - but church fathers are individually not infallible, for example, there exists a very minor disagreement between St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great over the pastoral care of military veterans, with most people likely supporting St. Athanasius, but some pacifists would likely support St. Basil, and since the issue is not formally resolved, it remains in the realm of theologoumemna (or what the Lutherans might call Adiaphora). Or on a more serious note, where a church father made actual errors, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian expressed support for Apokatastasis.

I do have a lot of respect for the Church Fathers, and for you, as well. However, I take the Premillennial road, unashamedly, since the times in history in which there is input matter to me. Early in the Church the Chiliast view was close, in time, to John the Revelator. And those who followed him several centuries later began to question Chiliast beliefs primarily because it didn't appear the Kingdom would literally come to Israel and to "hardened" Jews.

I find it telling that now, late in history, when Israel could conceivably be restored, that there is renewed interest in the Premillennial position. Though this doesn't make the Jewish People "good" overall, I do see evidence that Israel has tried to act in a more civilized "Christian" way with respect to the Middle East conflicts. I think it likely that Israel will return as a "nation of God" at Christ's coming. But no matter....

I do think the statement about martyrs being "under the altar" is obviously metaphorical. So, I don't think it figures into any technical placement, whether in "Heaven" or in "Abraham's Bosom" or in "Paradise," or whatever. I don't always follow tradition, and so reject a preliminary place called "Purgatory." For me, the departed saints are "in Heaven with God." The heavenly Jerusalem, or the City of God, will at some point descend from Heaven to take its rightful place on the New Earth.

Thankyou, by the way, for your shared learning on the various historical beliefs in the church denominations. Your brain must be twice my size!

 

[Hentenza]

Well the thing about those martyrs, is that since no prophecy is of any private exposition, according to 2 Peter 1:20, we don’t know to what extent Revelation is speaking about Heaven, or the World to Come, and to what extent it is typological or metaphorical and to what extent it is literal, except insofar as the early church did at the Council of Constantinople intend to exclude Chiliasm, after the fourth century fathers realized that such an interpretation was a misreading (in contrast to some 2nd century fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons who believed in it - but church fathers are individually not infallible, for example, there exists a very minor disagreement between St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great over the pastoral care of military veterans, with most people likely supporting St. Athanasius, but some pacifists would likely support St. Basil, and since the issue is not formally resolved, it remains in the realm of theologoumemna (or what the Lutherans might call Adiaphora). Or on a more serious note, where a church father made actual errors, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian expressed support for Apokatastasis.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I look at the martyrs under the altar as metaphorical as far as the imagery but I extrapolate that there are probably quite a few martyrs in heaven anyway. So maybe just a teaching about the special place that the martyrs have in God’s heart?