The Reality of Free Will

[childeye 2]

If you mean by this, I am saying you don't understand free will as explained in the OP, yes, that is what I am saying.

That's not what I mean. The OP gave contradictory meanings of free will; I wanted on record which one you meant. You went with the freedom to choose between options. In the moral/immoral context those two options are a subjective right and wrong. I always qualify what free will means according to what the Christ and Paul taught. --> a will free from sin. <-- this meaning is also in the moral/immoral context.

If a decision to serve God or not, or obey God or not, is in that category, then that's okay.

Oh yes, absolutely. Objectively speaking the choice/option to obey God or disobey God is the same as choosing between right/wrong because its right to obey God and it's wrong to disobey God --> so long as a person has a Trustworthy Image of God in their heart.

For example, If I had a subjective wicked image of god in my reasoning, then I could rationalize that it would be wrong to serve that god. Just like Joshua showed below:

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The sentiment in bold and underscored above indicates to me that a person who finds it evil to serve God has a subjective wicked image of god.

Thank you.
Your question then was a contradiction of reasoning, based on a false premise, because like freedom of choice, free will is not free from anything.
You had a false premise about free will due to not understanding it.

On the contrary. I said a will free from innocence. The contradiction is counting it freedom to have the disability of sin. That would be a negative connotation of freedom. There are negative and positive connotations of free will in scripture, in the moral/immoral context.

Morality <-- This carries a positive connotation
Immorality <-- This carries a negative connotation

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. <-- This is a positive connotation of free will
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. <-- This is a negative connotation of free will

This is why counting it freedom to choose to sin is a contradiction. Jesus called it servitude to sin not freedom to choose sin

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Just as I thought.
Some people equate free will with perfection.

I don't know what you mean by that. All I'm saying is that scripture shows that the will God gave mankind was without sin and without irreverence to God. To see what I mean by without sin, you need to know that sin is both an action and a condition. That's why there are levels of sinfulness in Romans 1, and that's why Jesus said the sick need a doctor referring to sinners as sick and sin as a sickness, not a choice/decision.

The two are far from equal.

The two what are far from equal? Are you talking about the freedom to choose or the free will that is free from sin?

Did Adam not know right from wrong, and had the choice of choosing one or the other?

Scripture says they began in innocence, not knowing good and evil, and they trusted in God. So, I don't think they knew anything about wickedness and righteousness.

How then could they be judged

I think God had mankind experience hardship to learn how good we had it.

Here is what the Bible says...
Genesis 2:15-17
15 Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:2, 3
2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden,
3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’”

So, your mom baked a cake; slice it in half; gave you a quarter of the half, and the other quarter to your sister, and told you, you can eat those, but don't touch the half on the table.
Will you cut or break off piece of that cake, and say you did not know right from wrong?
Or, would you take your dad's wallet, and take money from it, and say you did not know right from wrong.

I don't think this qualifies as a working analogy. Your analogy has no serpent, no death if you eat. No false image of god.

Both Adam and Eve knew it was wring to disobey God, and they both confessed to their guilt, after hiding... though they tried to pass blame from themselves. Genesis 3:12, 13
This is what free will is about - God allowing humans to make their own decisions to act on their own accord, according to their own desire.

That's not true. The scripture shows that Eve was believing she would die if she ate. Adam and Eve both believed it was wrong to eat because they would die.

It's a contradiction in reasoning to claim they both confessed their guilt and blamed someone else. If they were blaming each other, don't you think God would have said they were lying.

I hope you know that we will be judged by what measure we use to judge others. You talk as if disobeying God is something people want to do.

I don't think you realize that the desire to sin is based on first believing a lie. Inordinate lusts of the flesh are the product of vain imaginings.

You still are leaving out the serpent who caused Eve to have vain imaginings with his lies. The serpent introduced an adulterated image of god that corrupted the mind and beguiled the woman. And Paul has a fear that we might be corrupted in the same way.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I don't understand what you mean by "I believe the freedom of choice in the moral/immoral context is the knowledge of good/evil.", and you did not explain why you believe that.

I believe that the knowledge of good and evil gave the ability to see good and bad, as in judge and find fault, and subsequently experience pride and shame. For example, I see carnal vanity as comparing oneself with others and either feeling lifted up or put down in the process.

I don't understand this statement - the choice/option between right/wrong is a valid freedom as conveyed by the serpent??
What do you mean? Can you explain.

Let me say it this way: The Satan is the one that conveyed we have the choice/option to disobey God and not die. The Satan conveyed we could choose to eat. The Satan coveted God was lying to mankind. I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god.


There is a premise that the serpent subconsciously introduces a false image of God to Eve through his subtilty. I'm saying Eve is not consciously aware that she is accepting a false premise. That hidden premise is (1) that God is a liar because he said you will die if you eat (2) God is keeping the man and woman down by forbidding them from knowledge that would elevate their status (3) They could be free from their blind servitude to God and become like gods themselves if they ate.

Therefore, I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god that the serpent/the devil corrupted the mind with.

You lost me.
I do not have a clue what you are trying to say, and unless I do, I cannot respond to it.
However, I believe the Bible is what substantiates truth, rather than people's ideas, or what they believe.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

There's only one God. There is no choice in monotheism. I think one has to have a corrupt image of god, to think it's evil to serve God. Just like the serpent beguiled Eve through introducing a corrupt image of god through subtlty.

Paul like wise feared someone would preach a different Christ

11 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You believe the tree gave knowledge of good and evil.
So, you believe by eating a fruit, man got knowledge of good and evil.
May I ask, do you believe Adam and Eve could not see... they being blind... but after eating the fruit, they could then see?

No. I don't think they were blind. The way I interpret it is I think they found no fault in being naked before they ate and then found fault in being naked after they ate.

The Bible says... And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed together fig leaves and made coverings for themselves. Genesis 3:7

Do you believe they did not see each other's nakedness, and know of it?

I think their eyes being opened implies a realization. I think their feeling ashamed and wanting to cover their privates implies a carnal vanity.

 

[CoreyD]

Fair enough, though i find it can be helpful to identify where doctrine originate and how they trace through the history of the church by the men who present them. Satan may be the originator of the lie, but sometimes it's easier to recognize that it is a lie when we know who first proposed it and what their background is. I certainly don't fault Augustine, and think he was a truly devout man. But even devout men fall victim to falsehoods from time to time.

Not wanting to disagree with you, but...
I came to recognize lies, only after I studied the Bible.
For example, I came to realize that hellfire did not exist; the soul is not immortal; all good people do not go to heaven... and many other thing, and I did not know where they originated, or whom from, until after I appreciated that the Bible is truly God's word, and the source of truth.
It was then I realized how dangerous religion is, and why it's so important to consider what religious people teach, and match it with against the Bible.

To this day, I don't know half the teachings that are not scriptural, and who promotes them, but I know the truth, because it's easier to identify that from scripture.

It is true that some things are worth knowing, so as to avoid them, but these are mostly rituals, and customs.
Many people wear a cross on a chain, without knowing the origin, and how God views it.
I would agree it's helpful... in some cases, to know the background.

However, for the most part, I don't want to know who teaches falsehood, and where they originated, because when I talk to people about the Bible, I don't want to be focused on comparing religion, or religious people. I just want people to see what the Bible says. Then they will see for themselves who is teaching otherwise.

To give an example, I may be talking to someone about what the Bible says about, say, idols.
I don't know who I am talking to, but then I mention some religion by name, that promoted this teaching.
Lo and behold, without realizing it, I just put a wall between that person and the scriptures, because they are fervent worshippers of that religion, and so, rather than hear, or see what I am showing them, their emotions kick in, and they only hear "Your religion is wrong."
It's better they come to see that for themselves, by examining what the Bible says, than me telling them.
You get what I'm saying?

 

[childeye 2]

Free will
2 of 2

1
: voluntary choice or decision
I do this of my own free will


2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Above are two Merriam/Webster definitions of free will. It matters what the term "free" implies.

The reason I only comment on the will in a moral/immoral context is to glorify God. The fruit of God's Holy Spirit are these:

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:

If we say we choose/decide to have these qualities of Character of our own volition, then we are denying that it's God's Spirit in us, which is irreverence/ungodliness

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[CoreyD]

That's not what I mean. The OP gave contradictory meanings of free will; I wanted on record which one you meant. You went with the freedom to choose between options. In the moral/immoral context those two options are a subjective right and wrong. I always qualify what free will means according to what the Christ and Paul taught. --> a will free from sin. <-- this meaning is also in the moral/immoral context.

There was no contradiction... unless you mean they contradicted your wrong premises. That I would agree with.
All the terms used agreed in the proper context.

Oh yes, absolutely. Objectively speaking the choice/option to obey God or disobey God is the same as choosing between right/wrong because its right to obey God and it's wrong to disobey God --> so long as a person has a Trustworthy Image of God in their heart.

Why does it depend on the person?
Right is right and wrong is wrong, regardless of what a person knows, or has, isn't it.

For example, If I had a subjective wicked image of god in my reasoning, then I could rationalize that it would be wrong to serve that god. Just like Joshua showed below:

It does not matter what subjective view one has.
If God gives one a command, and one disobeys, one has done wrong... made the wrong choice.... regardless of what one think.
Sorry. I forgot to use 'one', instead of 'you'.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The sentiment in bold and underscored above indicates to me that a person who finds it evil to serve God has a subjective wicked image of god.

On the contrary. I said a will free from innocence. The contradiction is counting it freedom to have the disability of sin. That would be a negative connotation of freedom. There are negative and positive connotations of free will in scripture, in the moral/immoral context.

I understand that many persons, like yourself, have this idea.
Some people even believe that a perfect person cannot sin, and that is simply because they have the wrong concept of perfection.
Perfection is simply relative to the perfector.

In other words, it's perfect to the one who designed it, because it is made how he wants it.
You would hear a craftsman exclaim. "Perfect!" at one of his designs, and this is because it is just how he wanted it.
It does not mean it cannot break, or anything like that.

Similarly, the idea that free will means freedom from sin, dictates that free will is absolute perfection.
This is a mistaken view, since free will is relative to the one who requires an exercising of that will. It's not a freedom from.
This is your mistake, which I an trying to get you to see.

Here, take my $800.00 Van Heusen jacket. You are free to wear it.
Here are the keys to my brand new Mercedes Benz. You are free to drive it.
All of us are free to go jump off the highest cliff.
In all those cases, what are you free from?

When we limit word to one context, we can misunderstand their meaning.
Free will is not free from. It's free to. The God given gift to exercise one's freedom of choice without being forced.
Maybe that's what it's free from. force.

Morality <-- This carries a positive connotation
Immorality <-- This carries a negative connotation

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. <-- This is a positive connotation of free will
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. <-- This is a negative connotation of free will

This is why counting it freedom to choose to sin is a contradiction. Jesus called it servitude to sin not freedom to choose sin

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

There you go.
You misplaced free will because of misunderstanding.

I don't know what you mean by that. All I'm saying is that scripture shows that the will God gave mankind was without sin and without irreverence to God.

Please explain how you arrived at that being a will. Are you redefining will?

To see what I mean by without sin, you need to know that sin is both an action and a condition. That's why there are levels of sinfulness in Romans 1, and that's why Jesus said the sick need a doctor referring to sinners as sick and sin as a sickness, not a choice/decision.

Okay, but that does not explain what you are saying.
If you are talking about perfection, I can see what you are saying, but free will is not perfection.

The two what are far from equal? Are you talking about the freedom to choose or the free will that is free from sin?

Perfection, and free will, or freedom of choice are far from equal.

Scripture says they began in innocence, not knowing good and evil, and they trusted in God. So, I don't think they knew anything about wickedness and righteousness.

Knowing good and evil was explained, to a degree, in the scriptures.
I'll return to this.

I think God had mankind experience hardship to learn how good we had it.

Many people think that as well.
Would you agree, what we think, is not really important, but what the scriptures teach, is?

I don't think this qualifies as a working analogy. Your analogy has no serpent, no death if you eat. No false image of god.

How does knowing if something is wrong or right, depend on a serpent, death, and a false image of god?

That's not true. The scripture shows that Eve was believing she would die if she ate. Adam and Eve both believed it was wrong to eat because they would die.

???
Eve repeated what God said.
She, nor the scriptures do not say the reason both believed it was wrong to eat was because they would die.
That's something you think as well, isn't it?

It's a contradiction in reasoning to claim they both confessed their guilt and blamed someone else. If they were blaming each other, don't you think God would have said they were lying.

Why did they hide?
Genesis 3:8 Now they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

I hope you know that we will be judged by what measure we use to judge others. You talk as if disobeying God is something people want to do.

I'm only going by what the scriptures reveal, or teach.

Did the angel that became Satan the Devil want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: John 8:44 Yes, he did.

Did Adam want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: 1 Timothy 2:14 Yes, he did.

Do many people today want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: Romans 1:28-32 Yes, they do.

Something I hope you will eventually come to learn about me, is that I go by what the Bible says. Not by what I think.
What I think, is not important, because "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death". Proverbs 14:12

I don't think you realize that the desire to sin is based on first believing a lie. Inordinate lusts of the flesh are the product of vain imaginings.

I do not realize that, because it's not what the scriptures reveal.
While that's what you think, the disciple James says this:
"...a man is tempted, being drawn away and being enticed by the own desire." James 1:13

One of the things the scriptures reveal, is that God knows what's in the heart, and a thought, or desire that lingers there, is what develops into action.
Jesus said this, in agreement with his brother. Matthew 15:18-20

God knew what was in Eve's heart, before she went near the tree.
To think About...
Why did Eve not tell Adam anything, if she did not want to act on her own desires?
Adam was her head... was he not?
If she is so innocent, why is she not submissive to her head, but listens to a serpent who tells her to disobey something that her husband told her, or that God repeated in their presence?

Questions we can ask ourselves, lest we forget that unless we have all the facts, forming opinions can lead to wrong conclusions.
The serpent did not give Eve life. She came from Adam's rib, and Adam knew this, and no doubt, like we would, told her about this and the other magnificent things her maker did.
Why did she disobey God - her creator (not a serpent), if she did not want to?

Rebellion started in heaven, and continued on earth.
Psalm 78:17, 18
17 Yet they still continued to sin against Him, To rebel against the Most High in the desert.
18 And in their heart they put God to the test By asking food according to their desire.

You still are leaving out the serpent who caused Eve to have vain imaginings with his lies.

He caused her...? Do you mean, as in, "The Devil made me do it"?

The serpent introduced an adulterated image of god that corrupted the mind and beguiled the woman. And Paul has a fear that we might be corrupted in the same way.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You appear to be saying the woman did not have a choice in the matter, and could not exercise her freedom of choice... she had none.
Is that what you are saying?

I believe that the knowledge of good and evil gave the ability to see good and bad, as in judge and find fault, and subsequently experience pride and shame. For example, I see carnal vanity as comparing oneself with others and either feeling lifted up or put down in the process.

Are you saying the knowledge of good and evil was in the fruit, and when they ate it, that knowledge gave them an ability?

Let me say it this way: The Satan is the one that conveyed we have the choice/option to disobey God and not die. The Satan conveyed we could choose to eat. The Satan coveted God was lying to mankind. I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god.

So, when God said, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
You are saying Adam did not have a choice to eat from all the other trees instead of that one God commanded him not to. Is that correct?

There is a premise that the serpent subconsciously introduces a false image of God to Eve through his subtilty. I'm saying Eve is not consciously aware that she is accepting a false premise. That hidden premise is (1) that God is a liar because he said you will die if you eat (2) God is keeping the man and woman down by forbidding them from knowledge that would elevate their status (3) They could be free from their blind servitude to God and become like gods themselves if they ate.

Cool.
That sounds like something I can agree with.
In other words, Satan introduce the idea of independence from God... sort of like the kids will tells someone they want to join them, 'You don't have o listen to your dad. I do what I want. You can too." Peer pressure. ..and what does the wise kid do? Give in? No, he chooses to do otherwise.

Could Eve had decided otherwise?

Therefore, I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god that the serpent/the devil corrupted the mind with.

"the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom"?
Could you please rephrase that. I'm not making sense of it.
Do you mean man is free to disobey God, and so that is freedom?

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

There's only one God. There is no choice in monotheism. I think one has to have a corrupt image of god, to think it's evil to serve God. Just like the serpent beguiled Eve through introducing a corrupt image of god through subtlty.

Paul like wise feared someone would preach a different Christ

11 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

No. I don't think they were blind. The way I interpret it is I think they found no fault in being naked before they ate and then found fault in being naked after they ate.

I think their eyes being opened implies a realization. I think their feeling ashamed and wanting to cover their privates implies a carnal vanity.

A realization. Thank you.
A realization of what?

 

[CoreyD]

Free will
2 of 2

1
: voluntary choice or decision
I do this of my own free will


2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Above are two Merriam/Webster definitions of free will. It matters what the term "free" implies.

The reason I only comment on the will in a moral/immoral context is to glorify God. The fruit of God's Holy Spirit are these:

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:

If we say we choose/decide to have these qualities of Character of our own volition, then we are denying that it's God's Spirit in us, which is irreverence/ungodliness

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I appreciate your taking the time to look up the definition, and share it.
Would you mind putting the definition in your own words. Thanks.

Would you agree that atheists display these qualities in some measure - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:?
Do, we understand then that these qualities are of true value... that is, they refer to qualities of a godly nature, that are demonstrated to God's honor?

They are what God looks for in those who learn the Christ.
So, love shown by those in the world, is surpassed by love which is a quality of the spirit.

 

[childeye 2]

There was no contradiction... unless you mean they contradicted your wrong premises. That I would agree with.

You think being told to keep the commandments and live or not keep them and die is not a forced decision. When you're commanded to do something by an authority figure, it's NOT voluntary. A synergist would argue the degrees of a co-operative will but ultimately they must admit that the impetus originates from outside and not inside the will.

Cambridge dictionary
free will
noun

the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence::
Theories of criminal liability presume that we exercise free will.
Will artificial intelligences become endowed with free will?
of your own free will: No one told me to do it - I did it of my own free will.


Elsewhere, the OP is basically saying a free will means having your own will. You are conveying the Creator gave everyone their own will. The term free will in that sense means autonomy. See #2 below.

MerriamWebster

autonomy​

noun​

au·ton·o·my ȯ-ˈtä-nə-mē

pluralautonomies
Synonyms of autonomy
1
: the quality or state of being self-governing
especially : the right of self-government
The territory was granted autonomy.


2
: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
personal autonomy

All the terms used agreed in the proper context.

Not really. The context of Jesus saying, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do", implies the character of the father manifests in the fathers children.

1 John 3
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Why does it depend on the person?
Right is right and wrong is wrong, regardless of what a person knows, or has, isn't it.

Objectively there is One Way in monotheism. So subjectively speaking if we have a corrupt image of god/gods in our minds, what is right and wrong becomes subjective.

It does not matter what subjective view one has.
If God gives one a command, and one disobeys, one has done wrong... made the wrong choice.... regardless of what one think.
Sorry. I forgot to use 'one', instead of 'you'.

It matters greatly. Mankind was given over to uncleanness and to reprobate minds because of subjective imagery of god/gods.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I understand that many persons, like yourself, have this idea.

It's not an idea. It's the Christ that taught this. If the mind sees sin as freedom, it's not a mind in repentance for the remission of sins, it is a soul full of darkness.
Luke 11:34
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

Some people even believe that a perfect person cannot sin, and that is simply because they have the wrong concept of perfection.
Perfection is simply relative to the perfector.

We conform into the image God sent through the work of the Holy Spirit. The transformation from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind happens according to God's timetable and purpose.

In other words, it's perfect to the one who designed it, because it is made how he wants it.
You would hear a craftsman exclaim. "Perfect!" at one of his designs, and this is because it is just how he wanted it.
It does not mean it cannot break, or anything like that.

Yes, Adam was made without sin. It's not like God had bad breath when he breathed into Adam's nostrils and became a living soul. Adam was made from the earth and he was perfect for God's purpose, but he wasn't perfection. The second Adam, the Christ, is perfection.

Similarly, the idea that free will means freedom from sin, dictates that free will is absolute perfection.
This is a mistaken view, since free will is relative to the one who requires an exercising of that will. It's not a freedom from.
This is your mistake, which I an trying to get you to see.

I already see that, and I'm not disagreeing with you about that. I agree Adam was a corruptible soul in his innocence. The second Adam is perfection. The free will that is in Christ is not a will that thinks it has a freedom to sin, it's a will that is being set free from sin.

Here, take my $800.00 Van Heusen jacket. You are free to wear it.
Here are the keys to my brand new Mercedes Benz. You are free to drive it.
All of us are free to go jump off the highest cliff.
In all those cases, what are you free from?

When we limit word to one context, we can misunderstand their meaning.
Free will is not free from. It's free to. The God given gift to exercise one's freedom of choice without being forced.
Maybe that's what it's free from. force.

Unforced choice/decision? That would depend on knowledge. Doesn't knowledge and wisdom matter in the will? Doesn't the wise man make wise choices, and doesn't the fool make foolish choices? There are negative forces and positive forces.

I see Love as a positive force. For example, let's say I see someone cold or starving and I feel compassion, and I hurt with them, and I'm compelled to do something to alleviate the hurt. That doesn't happen because I choose to feel that way. It's a manifestation of the Spirit of God. Now I could choose to turn away, or I can choose to actually do something. But If I choose to turn away, it haunts me in my conscience. I don't choose to feel the guilt over how I betrayed my fellow man; I am forced to. I could have had joy and now I have misery.

But you know what? I'd rather thank God for that misery than to lose His Spirit and feel nothing.

There you go.
You misplaced free will because of misunderstanding.

All I did was post scripture showing two contrary wills/desires both called free. It's not a misunderstanding of the free will as pertains to a free agent.

Please explain how you arrived at that being a will. Are you redefining will?

See 2a disposition, inclination

WILL
2 of 3

noun​

ˈwil
1
: a legal declaration of a person's wishes regarding the disposal of his or her property or estate after death
especially : a written instrument legally executed by which a person makes disposition of his or her estate to take effect after death

2
: desire, wish: such as
a
: disposition, inclination
where there's a will there's a way

b
: appetite, passion
c
: choice, determination

Okay, but that does not explain what you are saying.
If you are talking about perfection, I can see what you are saying, but free will is not perfection.

It is perfection in the second Adam, the Christ.

Perfection, and free will, or freedom of choice are far from equal.

As a matter of impetus, a will headed into darkness is not the same impetus of a will headed back to the light.

Knowing good and evil was explained, to a degree, in the scriptures.
I'll return to this.

I see coming to know something the same as learning. As I said, the will headed into darkness is not the same will headed back into the light

Many people think that as well.
Would you agree, what we think, is not really important, but what the scriptures teach, is?

Our opinions don't give an account of anything, if that's what you mean.

How does knowing if something is wrong or right, depend on a serpent, death, and a false image of god?

Eve didn't know right or wrong, she trusted/believed God. The serpent was the manipulator that sowed distrust through an adulterated imagery of god/gods, which caused her to experience a false hope which brought death. None of that is in your analogy.

???
Eve repeated what God said.

Not accurately. God never said don't 'touch' it lest you die.

She, nor the scriptures do not say the reason both believed it was wrong to eat was because they would die.

I don't know why you would say that. Here's what God says--> But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

'For' means 'because'. Hence that's the reason.

That's something you think as well, isn't it?

I believe God wouldn't lie. I don't believe He sets people up to fail.

Why did they hide?
Genesis 3:8 Now they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

D
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. <--This is why the hid

I'm only going by what the scriptures reveal, or teach.

Did the angel that became Satan the Devil want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: John 8:44 Yes, he did.

You're taking this out of context. Jesus is saying the children of the devil do what their father does.

Did Adam want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: 1 Timothy 2:14 Yes, he did.

You're taking this Out of context. Paul is saying the woman should not usurp authority over the man because the man was not the one deceived. He's not saying Adam knew God was a liar.

Do many people today want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: Romans 1:28-32 Yes, they do.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

These scriptures you listed above testify to the course of depravity in the flesh and shows the abominations we all will become when separated from God's Spirit. It actually begins with not esteeming God as God The Eternal Power.

This is why Paul says in the next verse --> Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Something I hope you will eventually come to learn about me, is that I go by what the Bible says. Not by what I think.
What I think, is not important, because "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death". Proverbs 14:12

We're all doing our best to go by what the bible says. But your interpretations are incorrect.

I do not realize that, because it's not what the scriptures reveal.

It says it right here --> Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

And here --> Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And here --> Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

While that's what you think, the disciple James says this:
"...a man is tempted, being drawn away and being enticed by the own desire." James 1:13

What James is talking about is this --> Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

One of the things the scriptures reveal, is that God knows what's in the heart, and a thought, or desire that lingers there, is what develops into action.
Jesus said this, in agreement with his brother. Matthew 15:18-20

You're making my point. When we define a free will as a will free from sin, we can see the will that is NOT free from sin --> out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: <-- Do you actually think we just voluntarily choose to have horrible things like this in our hearts?

 

[childeye 2]

God knew what was in Eve's heart, before she went near the tree.

God knows everybody's heart. She probably walked by that tree every day.

To think About...
Why did Eve not tell Adam anything, if she did not want to act on her own desires?

This makes no sense. The serpent's words created the desire. Why would we think she wouldn't want to act on them? The question sounds like the attitude of the other son who stayed with the Father in the story of the prodigal son.

Adam was her head... was he not? If she is so innocent, why is she not submissive to her head, but listens to a serpent who tells her to disobey something that her husband told her, or that God repeated in their presence?

I like this question. First off innocence means ignorance of the knowledge of good/evil. So until she eats, she is ignorant of that knowledge.

Why is she not submissive to Adam? We don't know. My personal opinion is that Adam told her what God had told him, and that's why we see her saying she's not supposed to even touch it lest they die. God never said that to Adam. Maybe she touched it and nothing happened, so she began to wonder if Adam knew what he was talking about. We can't be sure. But we can be sure that the serpent talked as if he knew all about God and gods better than they did.

Questions we can ask ourselves, lest we forget that unless we have all the facts, forming opinions can lead to wrong conclusions.
The serpent did not give Eve life. She came from Adam's rib, and Adam knew this, and no doubt, like we would, told her about this and the other magnificent things her maker did.
Why did she disobey God - her creator (not a serpent), if she did not want to?

We've all done it in our own way, so why did we do that? I didn't exactly want to disobey God, but I did. We're going to be judged by what measure we judge others, so we'd better start forgiving and showing mercy and understanding instead of accusing and incriminating.

I asked the Holy Spirit about that. He said that everyone who has love in their heart comes to sincerely regret bad things they do once they see the suffering they caused others. A true repentance is a godly sorrow that sees that had they known then what they do now, they would not have done it in the first place.

I'm sure God sees some people who are sorry because they got kicked out of paradise, and he sees some people who are sorry they ever hurt God by not believing Him. These two wills think and speak differently.

He caused her...? Do you mean, as in, "The Devil made me do it"?

I mean the devil began the chain of events.

You appear to be saying the woman did not have a choice in the matter, and could not exercise her freedom of choice... she had none.
Is that what you are saying?

The scripture is saying she was deceived into doing it. You know that don't you? It's not like she would volunteer to be deceived. Did you know that Jesus came down to destroy the works of the devil?

Are you saying the knowledge of good and evil was in the fruit, and when they ate it, that knowledge gave them an ability?

I'm saying that's what I see scripture is saying.

So, when God said, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
You are saying Adam did not have a choice to eat from all the other trees instead of that one God commanded him not to. Is that correct?

That's not what I'm saying. Here is what I want you to get in bold

childeye 2 said:
Let me say it this way: The Satan is the one that conveyed we have the choice/option to disobey God and not die. The Satan conveyed we could choose to eat. The Satan conveyed that God was lying to mankind.

Therefore --> I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god.

Cool.
That sounds like something I can agree with.
In other words, Satan introduce the idea of independence from God...

Yes, exactly. But not only that. He planted a false image of God that is a tyrant Boss, in the psyche. A self-serving Boss who would sacrifice all those beneath him to preserve his status over them.

It's all in this one line --> And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

That's why the Christ Image comes as a lowly servant who sacrifices himself to save all others; to destroy the false image planted by Satan. And this is the power of revelation in the Gospel. The god of this world is Satan's false image of God, and his children are sired through that false image.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Could Eve had decided otherwise?

No, she didn't see through the lie, just like people still don't.

"the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom"?
Could you please rephrase that. I'm not making sense of it.
Do you mean man is free to disobey God, and so that is freedom?

No, I DON'T BELIEVE the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom --> because it's based on a corrupt image of god that the serpent/the devil corrupted the mind with.

A realization. Thank you.
A realization of what?

A realization that they were naked.

 

[CoreyD]

You think being told to keep the commandments and live or not keep them and die is not a forced decision. When you're commanded to do something by an authority figure, it's NOT voluntary.

When you are given a choice to do something, it's voluntary, whichever way you choose.
Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 has no command.
Did you read "Therefore choose life" as a command?
I'm sorry. May I suggest you read it again, and connect it with the words that precede it - " I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing."

I hope you see there is no command there. If not... it's better I keep quiet at this point.

Not really. The context of Jesus saying, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do", implies the character of the father manifests in the fathers children.

Yes, and how did they get the character of their father?

Objectively there is One Way in monotheism. So subjectively speaking if we have a corrupt image of god/gods in our minds, what is right and wrong becomes subjective.

What is right and wrong cannot become subjective... unless God is dead.
Do you believe God is dead, or that God determines right and wrong?
Your subjective view cannot change what is objective.

So, the law says you cannot make a U turn on an interstate highway.
You think the law is backward, and so you make a U turn on interstate highway.
How does that change the law, and you being sentence for a violation of the law?

It matters greatly. Mankind was given over to uncleanness and to reprobate minds because of subjective imagery of god/gods.

We were talking about Eve, so you need to get past Eve, before you get to sinful mankind.
Nowhere does the Bible say Eve was "given over to uncleanness and to reprobate minds because of subjective imagery of god/gods"

Yes, Adam was made without sin. It's not like God had bad breath when he breathed into Adam's nostrils and became a living soul. Adam was made from the earth and he was perfect for God's purpose, but he wasn't perfection. The second Adam, the Christ, is perfection.

I already see that, and I'm not disagreeing with you about that. I agree Adam was a corruptible soul in his innocence. The second Adam is perfection. The free will that is in Christ is not a will that thinks it has a freedom to sin, it's a will that is being set free from sin.

Unforced choice/decision? That would depend on knowledge. Doesn't knowledge and wisdom matter in the will? Doesn't the wise man make wise choices, and doesn't the fool make foolish choices? There are negative forces and positive forces.

Ah. So the fool makes a bad, or poor choice, because he does not put knowledge to good use, which is what wisdom is.
Whereas, the wise man puts his knowledge to good use, and prospers.
Thank you very much.

The Proverbs and the book of Ecclesiastes are full of the contrast between the fool and the wise ones.
Here is one. Ecclesiastes 10:2 - A wise man’s heart inclines him to the right, but a fool’s heart to the left.
Did you notice, the scripture supports what I said earlier? It's what's in the heart - the self.

So, Adam and Eve acted foolishly... we can say they were fools, because they failed to use knowledge in a proper way.
They were enticed by their own desires. James 1:14

From your comment, you agree then, that an unforced choice/decision, is an exercising of free will. Yes?

I see Love as a positive force. For example, let's say I see someone cold or starving and I feel compassion, and I hurt with them, and I'm compelled to do something to alleviate the hurt. That doesn't happen because I choose to feel that way. It's a manifestation of the Spirit of God. Now I could choose to turn away, or I can choose to actually do something. But If I choose to turn away, it haunts me in my conscience. I don't choose to feel the guilt over how I betrayed my fellow man; I am forced to. I could have had joy and now I have misery.

By your reasoning, atheist have the manifestation of the Spirit of God.
No. It is because God made man in his image, that man has these attributes.

The difference between the atheist that does not turn away, even from a dog that is trying to cross the street in heavy traffic, is that the qualities of the fruit of God's spirit goes beyond natural compassion, which the Bible says will become less evident in most people in the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-3).
It extends to even loving one's enemies, and not doing anything to harm them, but rather doing good to them.
Also, it allows one to...

"Never repay evil for evil to anyone. [a]Respect what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but [b]leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.​

Romans 12:17-21

The atheist does not receive the spirit of God automatically. In fact, none of us do.
Here is how one receives the spirit of God.
In fact, why don't you tell me, how one receives the holy spirit.

Eve didn't know right or wrong, she trusted/believed God.

You do not believe God told Adam and Eve what was right and wrong, regarding the trees?

The serpent was the manipulator that sowed distrust through an adulterated imagery of god/gods, which caused her to experience a false hope which brought death. None of that is in your analogy.

Eve's death was her own.
Adam's death was not brought about by Eve's decision.
Adam's death came through his own willful disobedience... his unforced choice to disobey God. 1 Timothy 2:14
Not only did Adam's unwise choice result in his death. It resulted in the death of all his progeny. Romans 5:12
In fact, mankind dies, not because of Eve, but because of Adam... his unforced, unbeguiled, willful decision.

Not accurately. God never said don't 'touch' it lest you die.

You don't know that.

I don't know why you would say that. Here's what God says--> But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

'For' means 'because'. Hence that's the reason.

God told them what eating from the tree would lead to.
The Bible does not say that is the reason both Adam and Eve believed it was wrong to eat from the tree.
You said, you studied semantics particular to psycholinguistics for well over forty years of my life... So I don't have to educate you in grammar.
I'd rather ask a child who is aged 13-16, and learning basic grammar.

You could do the same. if you have any young ones around.
Would you like me to give you the answers I got?

I believe God wouldn't lie. I don't believe He sets people up to fail.

That's right, but remember, what you think, and what we read, are two different things.
I don't know of any scholar that would agree with you, that reading God's statement translates to Adam and Eve's reason for not eating.
That, to me, is both grammatically incorrect, as well as... dare I say that.

D
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. <--This is why the hid

Adam hid because he was naked?
You making fun at me?
Earlier, you said, Adam and Eve were not blind, and the Bible, in Genesis 1:25 reads... And the man and his wife were both naked, but they were not ashamed.

If Adam hid because he was naked, why did he not hide from the beginning?
Obviously, because that is not the reason he hid. He lied... just as he did, when he tried to blame God, for giving him the woman, of whom he previously exclaimed...
“At last this is bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
[t]She shall be called [u]‘woman,’
Because [v]she was taken out of [w]man.” Genesis 2:23

See, how quickly Adam became like the one he sided with.

You're taking this out of context. Jesus is saying the children of the devil do what their father does.

In what way did I take it out of context?
Did the scriptures not say, "your will is to do your father’s desires"?
Did they not want to kill Jesus which was in line with their father's desire?
What did I say wrong, exactly?

Oh, I see. You are focusing on something other than what I pointed out.
The question was..
Did the angel that became Satan the Devil want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: John 8:44 Yes, he did.
John 8:44 - When he [the Devil] lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

You are confusing two different things.

You're taking this Out of context. Paul is saying the woman should not usurp authority over the man because the man was not the one deceived. He's not saying Adam knew God was a liar.

Did you just write what I just read?
Can you clarify, did you make a mistake.
I need to know, if to continue.

Edit
I must be seeing things. I thought I read, 'He's saying Adam knew God was a liar.'
I'll get back to the rest later though. I'm doing something else right now.

 

[childeye 2]

I appreciate your taking the time to look up the definition, and share it.
Would you mind putting the definition in your own words. Thanks.

Free will
2 of 2

1
: voluntary choice or decision
I do this of my own free will


2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Number 1 represents a certain type of choice/decision and that is a voluntary choice/decision. An involuntary choice/decision is one that is dictated out of necessity, obligation, coercion, external events outside of one's control --> see determinism.

Number 2 is the philosophical meaning which ponders to what degree human choices are determined by antecedent events including God's role.

Would you agree that atheists display these qualities in some measure - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:?

Yes, because God's Word is the Light and life of all people.

Do, we understand then that these qualities are of true value... that is, they refer to qualities of a godly nature, that are demonstrated to God's honor?

I think that's what we're experiencing in the knowledge of good and evil.

They are what God looks for in those who learn the Christ.

If you mean God seeks those who worship Him in truth and spirit, I agree. The Christ is a revelation through the Holy Spirit and He is the one who renews the mind..

So, love shown by those in the world, is surpassed by love which is a quality of the spirit.

I would say it's the same love. The quality or purity is what the world tends to diminish.

 

[childeye 2]

When you are given a choice to do something, it's voluntary, whichever way you choose.

It depends. Some choices you have to make out of necessity. The term choice in the sentence above is a choice/option referencing Deuteronomy, being presented by God, that the Israelites had to decide between. It qualifies as an antecedent event.

God says choose life which means to me that He doesn't want the people He's talking to, to choose to die. The choice/decision is therefore not voluntary because one MUST choose to live or die.

Moreover, assuming the people already have the will to live when the option is presented, it qualifies as a choice/decision made out of necessity.

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 has no command.
Did you read "Therefore choose life" as a command?

Choose Life is said after presenting the option to live or die. If I were there I would take it to mean God wants me to live and subsequently he instructs me to do these things to live and not be cursed. Since I don't will/desire to die or be cursed, I'd need to listen to His instruction.

I'm sorry. May I suggest you read it again, and connect it with the words that precede it - " I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing."

I hope you see there is no command there. If not... it's better I keep quiet at this point.

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


He' s referring to the commandments underscored above when he says he presents life/good and death/evil. Let's remember that in hindsight, these commandments are going to condemn all mankind as worthy of death, so that God can gather up according to His grace and mercy.

Yes, and how did they get the character of their father?

I believe it's through a false imagery of god. The first lie ever told to mankind was conveying through subtlety that God is a liar.

What is right and wrong cannot become subjective... unless God is dead.

When we say a subjective view of right and wrong, it generally demotes a single person's view. The objective view accounts for all subjective views. For example, the left/right dichotomy shows two equally valid opposing subjective views with the objective view at the center. God is Love and the subjective point of view is a limited view. Hence--> Love others as you would want to be loved <-- contains both God/Love and accounts for all subjective views.

Do you believe God is dead, or that God determines right and wrong?

I believe God exists Eternal by definition. I believe right and wrong are relative to God as the Light.

Your subjective view cannot change what is objective.

Just like the creature doesn't create the Creator.

So, Adam and Eve acted foolishly... we can say they were fools, because they failed to use knowledge in a proper way.
They were enticed by their own desires. James 1:14

Adam and Eve were innocent, no moral/immoral knowledge, no wisdom in the moral sense. James is speaking to all of us about our flesh, and finally, we don't volunteer to be made flesh. Our flesh existence is an antecedent event. That's why there is a carnal will.

From your comment, you agree then, that an unforced choice/decision, is an exercising of free will. Yes?

The proper way to articulate it is an unforced decision is a free will decision. That's an adjective describing a voluntary decision. I agree that God will let us go find out for ourselves that we should have trusted Him and that He has our best interests at heart. Just like in the prodigal son, he didn't force the son to stay. I would argue that the decision to leave was a desire based on false imaginings, and the will/disposition of the prodigal son when he left was not the penitent will/disposition that brought about his return.

By your reasoning, atheist have the manifestation of the Spirit of God.

I'm just believing what scripture says. God's Word is the Life and Light of all mankind.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

No. It is because God made man in his image, that man has these attributes.

Semantics.

The difference between the atheist that does not turn away, even from a dog that is trying to cross the street in heavy traffic, is that the qualities of the fruit of God's spirit goes beyond natural compassion, which the Bible says will become less evident in most people in the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-3).
It extends to even loving one's enemies, and not doing anything to harm them, but rather doing good to them.
Also, it allows one to...

"Never repay evil for evil to anyone. [a]Respect what is right in the sight of all people. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but [b]leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.​

Romans 12:17-21

The atheist does not receive the spirit of God automatically. In fact, none of us do.
Here is how one receives the spirit of God.
In fact, why don't you tell me, how one receives the holy spirit.

By grace through faith in His Christ. It's a revelation.

You do not believe God told Adam and Eve what was right and wrong, regarding the trees?

I believe He told them they would die if they ate of the knowledge of good and evil, to know right and wrong. I believe He wanted their relationship to be based on faith. Therefore, I wouldn't think He would want them to reason between right and wrong.

Eve's death was her own.
Adam's death was not brought about by Eve's decision.
Adam's death came through his own willful disobedience... his unforced choice to disobey God. 1 Timothy 2:14

I've already shown why Timothy 2:14 doesn't validate that Adam made a willful/intentional choice. I believe Adam ate reluctantly. To make a willful/intentional choice to eat when God had told him he would die if he did, would indicate he either wanted to die or he knew God was a liar.

Not only did Adam's unwise choice result in his death. It resulted in the death of all his progeny. Romans 5:12
In fact, mankind dies, not because of Eve, but because of Adam... his unforced, unbeguiled, willful decision.

I do NOT believe Adam ate willfully as in --> intentionally disobeying God to cause harm. If He wanted to eat willfully, then he would have done so without the antecedent event of the serpent and the woman telling him he would not die.

This is why his not being beguiled doesn't prove his intention to either want to die or believe God is a liar.

You don't know that.

I know what it says here --> 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I don't see "don't touch it".

God told them what eating from the tree would lead to.

Scripture says He told them they would surely die, and they believed Him, right?

The Bible does not say that is the reason both Adam and Eve believed it was wrong to eat from the tree.

They would have had to eaten of the tree to contemplate the moral/immoral sentiment of right and wrong. They didn't have that knowledge. I have that knowledge. If I were asked why it is wrong to disobey God, I'm going to say God is always right. That's not a sentiment Adam and Eve could have expressed. Eve's testimony that God said they would die if they ate indicates she believed/trusted God.

Can you agree with that?

You said, you studied semantics particular to psycholinguistics for well over forty years of my life... So I don't have to educate you in grammar.
I'd rather ask a child who is aged 13-16, and learning basic grammar.

You could do the same. if you have any young ones around.
Would you like me to give you the answers I got?

Well semantics is not about grammar. It's about expressed meanings. The analysis of sentiments that words carry when expressed.

I'd first need to see the semantical construct of the question. Did you use the word 'wrong'?

That's right, but remember, what you think, and what we read, are two different things.
I don't know of any scholar that would agree with you, that reading God's statement translates to Adam and Eve's reason for not eating.
That, to me, is both grammatically incorrect, as well as... dare I say that.

Would these scholars teach that the commandment to not eat shows an intent to protect the man and woman from harm?

Adam hid because he was naked?

That's what scripture says --> And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Earlier, you said, Adam and Eve were not blind, and the Bible, in Genesis 1:25 reads... And the man and his wife were both naked, but they were not ashamed.

Yes, they could see the fruit. Their eyes were opened means to me they realized they were naked.

If Adam hid because he was naked, why did he not hide from the beginning?

He didn't know he was naked before he ate of the fruit. He was afraid when he heard God's voice. Are you saying that his nakedness represents guilt?

Obviously, because that is not the reason he hid. He lied... just as he did, when he tried to blame God, for giving him the woman.

Here's what scripture says in Genesis 2:25 --> And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. <-- here they're not ashamed of being naked.

Genesis 3
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. <-- Here they've realized they were naked and are ashamed.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Scripture indicates he was afraid of God's presence.
Adam says he was afraid because he was naked. <-- It's possible he's lying.
Adam says, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid <-- It's possible he's telling the truth.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. <--He could be trying to blame God and the woman, or he could be speaking honestly.

I don't see any reason to project that Adam was lying. God's responses indicate He believes their account.

of whom he previously exclaimed...
“At last this is bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
[t]She shall be called [u]‘woman,’
Because [v]she was taken out of [w]man.” Genesis 2:23

See, how quickly Adam became like the one he sided with.

We will be judged by how we judge others, so we need to be careful not to project our wickedness onto Adam and Eve -->15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

In what way did I take it out of context?
Did the scriptures not say, "your will is to do your father’s desires"?


You are confusing two different things.

CoreyD said:
Both Adam and Eve knew it was wring to disobey God, and they both confessed to their guilt, after hiding... though they tried to pass blame from themselves. Genesis 3:12, 13
This is what free will is about - God allowing humans to make their own decisions to act on their own accord, according to their own desire.

Jesus is not saying they freely choose to act of their own accord, he's saying they will do what their Father does.

Did you just write what I just read?
Can you clarify, did you make a mistake.
I need to know, if to continue.

God said they would die if they ate of the forbidden fruit. The scriptures do not indicate that Adam had a desire to die; so to say that Adam knew what he was doing, is to say Adam knew God was lying. More probable is that he didn't know who to believe God or his wife.
That's why I believe he ate reluctantly not willfully.

willful​

adjective​

will·ful ˈwil-fəl

variants or wilful
Synonyms of willful
1
: obstinately and often perversely self-willed
a stubborn and willful child


2
: done deliberately : intentional

 

[CoreyD]

You're taking this Out of context. Paul is saying the woman should not usurp authority over the man because the man was not the one deceived. He's not saying Adam knew God was a liar.

The question was...
Did Adam want to disobey God?
The Bible's answer: 1 Timothy 2:14 Yes, he did.

1 Timothy 2:14 Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, the man's disobedience was willful. Adam sinned willfully.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

These scriptures you listed above testify to the course of depravity in the flesh and shows the abominations we all will become when separated from God's Spirit. It actually begins with not esteeming God as God The Eternal Power.

This is why Paul says in the next verse --> Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

The point is, there are people who want to disobey God.
The Bible says they are "haters of God".
They do not want to serve God.

The Bible reveals the reason people hate God, and why they hate Jesus.
John 3:19 men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12 they refuse to love and accept the truth... [they] did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

The truth is most people want to do their own thing without feeling restricted by God's requirements.
Those who do not believe this fact, do not believe the Bible, because the Bible makes this clear, in many places.
That is why Jesus will slaughter all of them, because they hate his father, and they hate the truth.
Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 19:11-27; Revelation 19:11-16; Zephaniah 1:14-18

We're all doing our best to go by what the bible says.

According to the Bible, we are not all doing our best to go by what the bible says.
Some willfully try to go contrary to what the Bible says, because of having a wicked heart.

But your interpretations are incorrect.

What did I interpret?
I didn't interpret anything.
If you believe I did, please point out one of those interpretations. Thank you.

It says it right here --> Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

And here --> Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And here --> Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

What's your point?
You said, "the desire to sin is based on first believing a lie".
That is false. How do we know it's false.
The Bible says Adam was not deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14
So Adam's was not deceived by the lie. Adam chose independence from God.
Did Adam need Satan for that? No. The tree was placed there by God, in order to determine what Adam wanted... to obey God on his terms, or not. Free will.
Adam voluntarily chose not.

What James is talking about is this --> Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

No, James is saying, God does not try anyone with evil. So, don't blame God for the trials you face. Rather, trials arise from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desire are what, gives birth to sin; which then result in problems that even lead to death.
That's what James says.

So, when the paster tells his congregation, "God brought this on us so that we repeat.", we can know that he's lying, because God does not bring evil trials on anyone, but man is to blame for the trials we face.

You're making my point. When we define a free will as a will free from sin, we can see the will that is NOT free from sin --> out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: <-- Do you actually think we just voluntarily choose to have horrible things like this in our hearts?

That's your point?
Well, I thought you were saying free will cannot exist because sin exists.
If however, you are saying you are not defining free will as a will free from sin, we agree, because that's what I have been saying all along. Free will does not depend on being sinless. A sinful person can exercise free will, because many have voluntarily resisted evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

I see you are married. Have you given into adulteries.?.. Don't answer that.
When is the last time you murdered someone? What about thefts... stole anyone's watch, or jewelry?
Whatever your answer, it's because God allows you the freedom to exercise the gift of free will.

We should thank him for that gift, because it allows us to show, or demonstrate love for him, if we do.
Or, we could hate him, if we do, and side with Satan...
John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 Loving God means keeping his commandments.

 

[CoreyD]

God knows everybody's heart. She probably walked by that tree every day.

This makes no sense. The serpent's words created the desire. Why would we think she wouldn't want to act on them? The question sounds like the attitude of the other son who stayed with the Father in the story of the prodigal son.

It might make sense if one appreciates that God made humans, and not robot,.
A human being has the capacity to form their own opinion, ideas, desires...
Actually, not only humans. Angels were made with this ability as well.
The Devil wasn't always evil. That angel developed his own ideas, and acted on his own, as Jesus said. John 8:44

God even referred to this pattern, in Ezekiel 28:15
From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways—until wickedness was found in you.

I like this question. First off innocence means ignorance of the knowledge of good/evil. So until she eats, she is ignorant of that knowledge.

If you believe Eve did not know right from wrong, then why do you believe she died?

I must let you know, I do not believe in fairytale stories, and the Bible is not a fairytale about magic trees that give people knowledge when they eat its fruit.
Just as you used common sense to recognize that their eyes being opened is not literal, but figurative, I believe commonsense, would lead to understanding that the knowledge of good and evil figuratively represents a deciding of what is good and bad. Hence why God says the man has become like one of us.

When Satan said you will become like God, knowing good and evil, rater than he saying you will know right from wrong, he was saying, you will become like a god, in making decisions for yourself as to what is right or wrong.
I believe commonsense would tell us that God - the loving father, wants his children to know right from wrong, and would not hide or keep it from them.
No loving God wants his children to be ignorant.
In fact, the Bible says God will destroy the ignorant ones... that is, willfully ignorant ones. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

So, like many, who understand the representation of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I do not support the idea of a magical tree bearing magical fruit with knowledge wrapped up in it.

Why is she not submissive to Adam? We don't know. My personal opinion is that Adam told her what God had told him, and that's why we see her saying she's not supposed to even touch it lest they die. God never said that to Adam. Maybe she touched it and nothing happened, so she began to wonder if Adam knew what he was talking about. We can't be sure. But we can be sure that the serpent talked as if he knew all about God and gods better than they did.

Since you are speculating, we need not consider this.

We've all done it in our own way, so why did we do that? I didn't exactly want to disobey God, but I did. We're going to be judged by what measure we judge others, so we'd better start forgiving and showing mercy and understanding instead of accusing and incriminating.

We are sinful, but when we do wrong, and are repentant, we try do do better, and isn't it true we overcome with God's help.
Would we get God's help and support if we willfully give into and practice the wrong, or would God provide that help, when we make the effort to do the right thing?
Is making the effort to do the right thing, a voluntary, unforced choice?

I asked the Holy Spirit about that. He said that everyone who has love in their heart comes to sincerely regret bad things they do once they see the suffering they caused others. A true repentance is a godly sorrow that sees that had they known then what they do now, they would not have done it in the first place.

Yes, many people do that.
Are there persons who don't regret what they did, and would do it again, if given the opportunity, because they enjoy it, and want to do it?

I'm sure God sees some people who are sorry because they got kicked out of paradise, and he sees some people who are sorry they ever hurt God by not believing Him. These two wills think and speak differently.

The Devil isn't sorry, is he? That's one of God's sons, who was closer to him than any human.
Rebellion is not a far fetched theory. It's a reality, and it happened in the Garden of Eden.

I mean the devil began the chain of events.

Can you give me each chain, please.

The scripture is saying she was deceived into doing it. You know that don't you? It's not like she would volunteer to be deceived. Did you know that Jesus came down to destroy the works of the devil?

A person can be deceived by a lot of things... their own heart's desires (Jeremiah 17:9); by their own eyes and what they envision (Matthew 13:22); sinful pleasure (Hebrews 3:13); what they hear... or want to hear. (2 Peter 2:13)..
That wasn't my question.

I'm asking is you are saying the woman did not have a choice in the matter, and could not exercise her freedom of choice., because she had none?

I'm saying that's what I see scripture is saying.

That's not what I'm saying. Here is what I want you to get in bold

childeye 2 said:
Let me say it this way: The Satan is the one that conveyed we have the choice/option to disobey God and not die. The Satan conveyed we could choose to eat. The Satan conveyed that God was lying to mankind.

Therefore --> I don't believe the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom because it's based on a corrupt image of god.

There is that phrase again - the capacity to disobey God - which I am not sure what you mean.
Do you mean man does not have the ability to obey God? Or he isn't free to do so?

Yes, exactly. But not only that. He planted a false image of God that is a tyrant Boss, in the psyche. A self-serving Boss who would sacrifice all those beneath him to preserve his status over them.

Okay.
Do you know people paint that picture, even today?
Can you tell me why you don't believe it, and what's the difference between you and the first humans.

No, she didn't see through the lie, just like people still don't.

Do you see through the lie, and what's the difference between you and them?

No, I DON'T BELIEVE the capacity to disobey God is a valid freedom --> because it's based on a corrupt image of god that the serpent/the devil corrupted the mind with.

A realization that they were naked.

They didn't realize they were naked before... Why... were they blind?
You said they weren't blind. The Bible says they were able to see, and they were naked and not ashamed.
So, clearly, they did not now come to a realization that they were naked, after eating the fruit.

 

[CoreyD]

The proper way to articulate it is an unforced decision is a free will decision. That's an adjective describing a voluntary decision.

So, we agree humans do make unforced decisions - free will decisions.
Thank you. That end this discussion then, since that covers the OP.
Thanks.

One thing I would like to clarify...

Yes, they could see the fruit. Their eyes were opened means to me they realized they were naked.

They could see their naked bodies.
Are you referring to that as fruit?

He didn't know he was naked before he ate of the fruit. He was afraid when he heard God's voice. Are you saying that his nakedness represents guilt?

Wait. Adam did not know he and Eve were naked, before eating the fruit?
Let's get that clear first.