Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Carl Emerson]

Why can't it be through normal gospel means which obviously includes revivals and the providence of God like I said in the OP? Why do people always lean towards fantasticism in regards to the future when the future has already been happening?

There is plenty of scripture speaking of Jews returning to the land as believers.

This has not happened given the rejection of Jesus which prevails among them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

When they are undergoing the great tribulation, there will be

144,000 brethren preaching to them
Moses and Elijah preaching to them
Angels preaching to them
Their signs and wonders will be on full display

With all these, I am sure there will be a great revivial for them, as Paul predicted in Romans 11:25-29

Do you think Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses?

 

[Guojing]

Do you think Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses?

Yes, but others may have different views of course.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

There is plenty of scripture speaking of Jews returning to the land as believers.

This has not happened given the rejection of Jesus which prevails among them.

That is kind of a cultural opinion but not some iron clad fact of life The first church I was a member of was half Jewish. I cut my teeth in ministry among Jewish people. They were by far my favorite unbelievers to minister to. Have you ever seen one for Israel salvation testimony video’s? Very uplifting and faith building. You aught to watch a few. I just picked a random one here.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is kind of a cultural opinion but not some iron clad fact of life The first church I was a member of was half Jewish. I cut my teeth in ministry among Jewish people. They were by far my favorite unbelievers to minister to. Have you ever seen one for Israel salvation testimony video’s? Very uplifting and faith building. You aught to watch a few. I just picked a random one here.

I have ministered in Israel also and have a deep love for the Jewish people.

However their religious orthodoxy is staunchly anti-Jesus.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I have ministered in Israel also and have a deep love for the Jewish people.

However their religious orthodoxy is staunchly anti-Jesus.

If you’re talking about the dudes dressed in black with silly hats and pigtails yes. But they even irritate normal Jews. The percentage of them in comparison to the Jewish population worldwide is negligible enough to say they don’t represent Jews.

I have not found that crowd has enough influence among Jews in general to not be able to effectively minster to Jews.

I think I can safely say. Who isn’t anti-Jesus until they run into Jesus?

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you’re talking about the dudes dressed in black with silly hats and pigtails yes. But they even irritate normal Jews. The percentage of them in comparison to the Jewish population worldwide is negligible enough to say they don’t represent Jews.

I have not found that crowd has enough influence among Jews in general to not be able to effectively minster to Jews.

I think I can safely say. Who isn’t anti-Jesus until they run into Jesus?

Wearing a cross tends to make the air turn blue - there is a definite anti-Christ attitude among average Jews.

There are also secret believers and many genuinely open to the Gospel.

I was supporting new believers who lost their jobs and families when they committed to Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think I can safely say. Who isn’t anti-Jesus until they run into Jesus?

Me...

I was aware of Him by the age of 3 and somehow knew I belonged.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Me...

I was aware of Him by the age of 3 and somehow knew I belonged.

Well that is good. But being a horrible sinner before I came to Christ and being familiar with lots of others like myself. That is usually what we have to deal with

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Wearing a cross tends to make the air turn blue - there is a definite anti-Christ attitude among average Jews.

There are also secret believers and many genuinely open to the Gospel.

I was supporting new believers who lost their jobs and families when they committed to Jesus.

Well, I have certainly seen that. But if it were my business witnessing to Jews or Muslims. I would not lead off wearing a cross.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, I have certainly seen that. But if it were my business witnessing to Jews or Muslims. I would not lead off wearing a cross.

Agreed - I didn't - but I witnessed it when others did.

 

[RisenInJesus]

The Church is not Israel, neither it has replaced Israel. I don't know how Christians can read Romans 11 and came to the conclusion that the Church has replaced Israel

Romans 11 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers

Isaiah 66 8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children.

God asked, can a nation be created in 1 day? Then He answered yes by establishing Israel in 1948.

This was prophesied by Ezekiel also. Ezekiel 36:19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. - this happened in 70AD. Israel was scattered across the world, with no land, no army, no government. But let's take a look what God says in verse 24 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.' And this indeed happened in may 1948.
We can then surely say that the modern Israel is the same Israel in OT.

The people of Israel are cut apart because God chose them to be His Holy, Exodus 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

They are special for the sole reason that God has declared them to be special. They are the physical fulfilment of the extraordinary promese God made thousands of years ago to Abraham and his wife Sara.

It is for this reason Paul says in Romans 11: I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Exactly. God has made irrevocable promises to Israel, which make no sense when people try applying them to the church or ignore altogether. I think it’s very important for Christians to rightly divide the scriptures and understand that there are three groups of people; Jews (Israel), Gentiles (non-Jews), and the church (born again believers-Jews and Gentiles).

“After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (1 Cor 10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today’s world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.”

Jews, Gentiles, And The Church

prophecyupdate.blogspot.com

 

[Guojing]

Exactly. God has made irrevocable promises to Israel, which make no sense when people try applying them to the church or ignore altogether. I think it’s very important for Christians to rightly divide the scriptures and understand that there are three groups of people; Jews (Israel), Gentiles (non-Jews), and the church (born again believers-Jews and Gentiles).

“After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (1 Cor 10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today’s world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.”

If you are indeed rightly dividing as you claim, then you should be aware that the "church" that Jesus promised in Matthew is not the same as the Body of Christ that Paul was speaking about.

That "church" is the little flock or the remanent of Israel who believed in Jesus as their Messiah