There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

[Hans Blaster]

So how did they do it?

anti-grav lifts, obviously.

 

[BCP1928]

Civilization: that state of human affairs in which societies can afford to undertake large, labor-intensive projects of no intrinsic value.

 

[stevevw]

GT is studied by archeologists, they are publishing their findings in normal archeological journals. Those digs will enrich our understanding of their material culture.

Yes and they are saying that these discoveries are as they say rewriting and reshaping our understanding of human evolution and development. Being far more sophisticated in knowledge than we thought.

Echo from the Past: How Göbekli Tepe is Reshaping Our Understanding of the Neolithic

Popular Archeology - Echo from the Past: How Göbekli Tepe is Reshaping Our Understanding of the Neolithic

popular-archaeology.com

How Gobekli Tepe Rewrote the Origins of Civilization

How Gobekli Tepe Rewrote the Origins of Civilization | TheCollector

Gobekli Tepe is an ancient site that changed how people view early human history and is believed to have been built between 9600 BCE and 8200 BCE.

www.thecollector.com

Articles in journals!!

Yes its all covered in journals and archeology.

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey | Cambridge Archaeological Journal | Cambridge Core

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey - Volume 30 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

Representations of calendars and time at Göbekli Tepe and Karahan Tepe support an astronomical interpretation of their symbolism

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1751696X.2024.2373876

No, what you are putting forward is at best a possibility, now they have to find something that makes it into an actuality.

I thought I was lol. I sure have linked a lot of amazing stone works. Many of these seem to have risen around the same time period. Like a peak in magnificant stone works. We see similar signatures of these stone works all over the world such as the pyramid. Is that not evidence.

Actually not just stone work as not all cultures had access to stone. Its really about megaliths and stone seemed to have been the main works. But there were also land glyphs and works such as in south America. Massive monuments, shapes in the ground that can only be seen from above. Other works that used the landscape itself such as large natural rocks being worshipped or used as monuments ect.

Or humans were perhaps not those harshly affected? Do we find many human remains from the time period?

The logic is if there was a flood and we have strong evidence. That most humans lived by water such as rivers and coast lines. Then it is logical that quite significant numbers were lost. Cities flooded or washed away. We see evidence for this flooding especially in the northern hemisphere.

Such as the Channeled Scablands in Washington carved by the Missoula floods, the Black Sea deluge hypothesis supported by findings like ancient shorelines and drowned river valleys, and other evidence of large-scale floods in locations like North Africa, the Middle East, and Siberia.

Its ongoing research. But there was definitely a big melt of the ide cap at the end of the last iceage and big flooding.

Ice cores reveal rapid Antarctic ice loss in the past

Ice cores reveal rapid Antarctic ice loss in the past - British Antarctic Survey

The first direct evidence that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet shrank suddenly and dramatically at the end of the Last Ice Age, around eight thousand years ago, is published in …

www.bas.ac.uk

Most important we have the testimony of just about every culture on earth who tell us over and over again that there was a great disaster like a flood that actually wiped out their ancestors. This is also evidence of a different kind. Testimonial evidence from lived reality that was passed down. But science relegates this as myth because it cannot be tested in a lab.

Muron?

Are you calling me a moron lol. Oh sorry Muron lol.

I'am familiar with electromagnetism, what about it? SAR, synthetic aperature radar?

Well you will know of the research into electromagnetism and these sites around the world. Especially the pyramids. Something to do with some sites being aligned in locations of higher electromagnetism. Or that some sites can generate electromagnetism.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies
There seems to be some indication that ancient people had some awareness of magnetism; maybe they were led to built temples upon what we can recognize today as geophysical anomalies.

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies

The location and concomitant potential geophysical properties of monumental sites is rarely considered in archaeology. In a previous paper by the same authors, the types of various geophysical anomalies are analyzed: geoelectrical, hydrogeophysical, geological. These anomalies originate mainly...

www.sciencepublishinggroup.com

Yes, and it'll be the normal view until someone can show it to be false. In journal articles.

Hum I did not think there was suppose to be an orthodoxy to begin with. Thats not science. Whenever science gets dogmatic about orthodoxy like anything its going beyond science and into belief.

So where are all the roman books about the big stones that you believe they moved?

Nowhere to be found. Except the modern narratives that insist the Romans built them. But not the Romans themselves. You would think that considering they liked to detail all their works and achievements that moving the biggest blocks in the world would have been something to brag about. But more importantly describe in being able to achieve this as it would have required the greatest cranes ever built. Surely we would hear of such a feat.

I noticed even Ai which is a review of many findings acknowledges the Romans built the temple on an existing platform that was already there. Which though not evidence does show that at least a large number of articles say the same thing. The evidence seems strong its not made by Romans. Different style, old looking, eroded far more than the Roman work, not typical lifting holes, no crane capable of lifting such weights, no records of them moving them even though they mention the temple.

But this is an example of many sites and a bit like the vases where theres disagreement about origina and who made them. Which has not been resolved though there is growing evidence for earlier dates.

Tell them to publish their findings, get the experts looking at it.

Why is it always those who propose an alternative idea. It is the orthodox narrative that has no evidence and relies on assumption. I never see anyone calling for their evidence. They just acept it as fact without any evidence.

So lets say theres no concrete evidence. Does the rational I just gave of the erosion, age, lack of physical ability of the Romans, completely different signatures that align more with other ancient megalths and that there was a site before hand, ect seem a stronger case. Than the no evidence from the orthodoxy based on whoever built last on a site built it.

Many more experts believe them to be natural formations.

Is expert itself the qualification. Who is more an expert lol. Is it a competition of experts. Which scientists is more an expert on a site. One who visits once or 150 times and has more detailed observations because they have been there many more times to be able to properly examine it.

You haven't even showed that the under water features is anything but natural yet.

And you have not shown it is natural. Funny that. How about we say it may or may not be. We cannot rule either out at this stage.

The Yonagumi monument is east of Taiwan. Mount Nokogiri is at the mouth of Tokyo bay. The quarry there is from the Edo period if wikipedia is to be trusted.

No Wiki8 cannot be trusted. Once again they just don't know and there is evidence its from an earlier time. Once again the signatures are different. But the point was regardless that there is evidence of very similar architecture from the same area.

The Yonagumi monument as the name suggests is Japanese. The Mount Nokogiri quarry is Japanese. The similar signatures in other works such as at Peru are from a similar time if not also earlier works.

This is the problem. The orthodoxy keeps relegating these works to people who themselves say their culture did not make them. We just don't know. But to assume they are from X culture when we don't know is wrong. Or that there is evidence they are earlier and just ignore this.

If they are from the Edo period they had access to versions of steel tools.

What like circular saws. How do they even get up there to use the tool. You would need a saw 20 foot big. Even then they are cut into the face and not across. How does a saw move.

Seems the good old orthodox methods can mimick everything from circular saws, lathes, giant graders, heavy lifters, almost magically.

Wasn't cuneiform the first written language dating back to 3000-3500 bce?

Yes but the other forms like the Egyptian hyroglyphs were forms of written communication.

Why not? If it is demonstrable and you can form hypotheses (amenable to possible falsification) about it you can test it.

Alternative knowledge by its very nature is not testable by science. Its alternative because it cannot be tested by science. Like conscious experiences cannot be tested by science. They belong in a different paradigm.

Science can tests for the physical manifestations of brain activity. But the brain activity is not responsible for the experience. Thats like saying the wires in a computer are responsible for consious experience. Or alternative knowledge from God. How do you test for that. Say someones prayers are answered. Or God gives a revelation of knowledge. How do you test for that.

Why, would a "science worldview" make it impossible to test someones deep knowledge about nature?

Because the deeper knowledge of nature may be experiencential which is a qualitative phenomena and not a quantified one. Science can only measure the quantified stuff. It will relegate the experiences or beliefs that bring the knowledge as something physical rather than immaterial. Belief is immaterial but brings knowledge.

We do forest baths in Sweden too, no need for any lost knowledge.

In this case then its not lost. Its still happening. But it was a knowledge from the ancients. It was discovered by the ancients without science. It was part of their beliefs and experiences of being immersed in nature that they came up with it. They didn't have degrees in science where they worked out that this would be beneficial. ONly now we are beginning to understand this.

That is not ancient technology or lost knowledge. It is the epitome of "we tried things until we found something that worked".

The point is they had medicines without the science. Its because they were immersed in nature. It was not just that they tried stuff. They understood nature as well and became aware of what worked and what did not.

Most of the astronomical significance of the places in that pdf, is at best our best guess. What conclusions do you want me to draw from going through it?

That they understood the workings of nature. The cosmos was associated with crops, and seasons and movements of wildlife and other aspects of nature. They were living synchronised to nature. They worshipped the sun and moon and stars. They were their guides. This was part of what gave them secrets of nature.

Like how the pyramids and other works are aligned to the sun and moon and stars. This brought knowledge and actually influenced their world. Do you think they just aligned these works to stars for nothing.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A few select items...

Representations of calendars and time at Göbekli Tepe and Karahan Tepe support an astronomical interpretation of their symbolism

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1751696X.2024.2373876

We've gone over this in the past. It is nonsense. There is zero reason to believe we know what asterisms they mapped on various images or ideas.

The logic is if there was a flood and we have strong evidence. That most humans lived by water such as rivers and coast lines. Then it is logical that quite significant numbers were lost. Cities flooded or washed away. We see evidence for this flooding especially in the northern hemisphere.

Such as the Channeled Scablands in Washington carved by the Missoula floods,

The Missoula floods have nothing to do with any flooded civilization.

\

Alternative knowledge by its very nature is not testable by science. Its alternative because it cannot be tested by science. Like conscious experiences cannot be tested by science. They belong in a different paradigm.

Then they are useless.

Like how the pyramids and other works are aligned to the sun and moon and stars. This brought knowledge and actually influenced their world. Do you think they just aligned these works to stars for nothing.

The Giza pyramids are aligned to *ONE* star -- the Sun. They are aligned north-south with a measurement that can be made any day it is not overcast.

 

[stevevw]

This is incoherent nonsense.
We know the obelisks were not Roman they were made in Egypt, they ended up in Rome because they were transported on ships by Romans.
We can also be very confident the obelisks were erected in Rome by Romans.

The major obelisks erected in Rome were between 230 - 455 tons which according to your nonsense is impossible.

Obelisk (Rome)	Approximate weight	Original erection: when & by whom	Erected in Rome / by whom
Lateran Obelisk (Lateran Obelisk)	~ 455 tons originally (now ~330 tons) (PBS)	Built by Thutmose III / finished by Thutmose IV at Karnak, c. 15th century BCE (PBS)	Transported to Rome in AD 357 under Constantius II, erected in Piazza S. Giovanni in Laterano in 1588 by order of Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Vatican Obelisk (Vatican Obelisk)	~ 331 tons (PBS)	Originally erected circa 30–28 BC in Alexandria under Roman prefect Cornelius Gallus by order of Augustus. (Wikipedia)	Brought to Rome by Caligula in AD 40, erected in Piazza San Pietro in 1586 under Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Flaminio Obelisk (Flaminio Obelisk)	~ 235 tons (Obelisks)	Erected in Heliopolis by Seti I and completed by Ramesses II (13th century BCE) (Jeff Bondono)	Brought to Rome in 10 BC by Augustus and erected on the spina of the Circus Maximus; re-erected in Piazza del Popolo 1589 under Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Solare / Montecitorio Obelisk (Obelisk of Montecitorio)	~ 230 tons (some sources) (Ostia Antica)	Originally erected by Psamtik II (595-589 BC) at Heliopolis. (Wikipedia)	Brought to Rome in 10 BC by Augustus; erected in current site Piazza di Montecitorio during restoration in 1789-1792 under Pope Pius VI. (Jeff Bondono)

Using simple logic in lieu of science a prediction is there should have been no obelisks in Rome erected by the Romans hence your nonsense is shot to pieces.
So how did they do it?

OK so the heaviest one seems to have been moved later when perhaps there was better tech. But we are talking blocks double that size and in the case of the ones in the ground triple. It was done near on half a millenia earlier when the tech was not as advanced.

But never mind that. The fact is by the orthodox view and research the heaviest blocks lifted by Roman cranes are estimated to be over 100 tonnes. Thats one tenth of the needed lifting power.

Its that they had to lift these blocks out of the quarry and then 30 feet into the air into position.

You also make a big noise and call me names over a single aspect of the evidence and remain deathy silent on the others. Please explain the erosion on the blocks as opposed to the later Romans ones. Please explain the scratch marks that are exactly like earlier works. Please explain that the Romans did not mention lifting the heaviest blocks in history. Please explain why there were no lewis holes for which they always use when lifting with their cranes.

 

[stevevw]

A few select items...


We've gone over this in the past. It is nonsense. There is zero reason to believe we know what asterisms they mapped on various images or ideas.

First others who are studying this disagree its nonsennse fullstop. You make that statement like its a verified fact. Thats part of the problem. Second just because we don't know what asterisms they used does not mean that they did not use them as part of mapping out some knowledge. We just have not worked that out.

But its the fact that they encoded some knowledge into these works thats the point. You think its all rubbish and that these asterisms are superstition and nothing. Others disagree and its part of discovering their knowledge.

You are using the fact we don't know as dismissing the entire idea that there may be advanced knowledge within those works that we are yet to fully understand.

The Missoula floods have nothing to do with any flooded civilization.

But still floods that may have wiped out cultures in that area and contributed to their flood myths. But why are they not associated. IT seems to be they were the result of glazial melts, damming up and sudden flooding. General massive flooding. Around the same time other areas were flooding during similar ice melts.

The fact is the indigenous peoples from that area tell us.
Indigenous oral histories from the region contain flood narratives that many believe are linked to these cataclysmic events, such as the Kalapuya tale of \"atswin\" (the flood) and the Sahaptin name "Laliik" for Rattlesnake Ridge, which translates to "stands above the water."

Then they are useless.

How are they useless. Is your experience of colors or love or music useless to you.

The Giza pyramids are aligned to *ONE* star -- the Sun. They are aligned north-south with a measurement that can be made any day it is not overcast.

​

Can astronomy explain why the pyramids in Egypt were built?​

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/space-science/astronomy-egyptian-pyramids

Pyramid precision

The ancient Egyptians used two bright stars in the Big Dipper and Little Dipper constellations to align their pyramids in a north-south direction, a British Egyptologist says. If she's right, we can now pin down the ages of the pyramids far more accurately than before. It's an "ingenious...

www.newscientist.com

 

[sjastro]

OK so the heaviest one seems to have been moved later when perhaps there was better tech. But we are talking blocks double that size and in the case of the ones in the ground triple. It was done near on half a millenia earlier when the tech was not as advanced.

But never mind that. The fact is by the orthodox view and research the heaviest blocks lifted by Roman cranes are estimated to be over 100 tonnes. Thats one tenth of the needed lifting power.

Its that they had to lift these blocks out of the quarry and then 30 feet into the air into position.

You also make a big noise and call me names over a single aspect of the evidence and remain deathy silent on the others. Please explain the erosion on the blocks as opposed to the later Romans ones. Please explain the scratch marks that are exactly like earlier works. Please explain that the Romans did not mention lifting the heaviest blocks in history. Please explain why there were no lewis holes for which they always use when lifting with their cranes.

Do I need to remind you in a previous post you categorically stated:

(1) Roman cranes could not lift more than 60 tons.
(2) The Romans detailed and documented everything they built.
(3) The blocks in question weighed 900 tons.

Now it has become:

(1) Roman cranes are estimated to be able to lift over 100 tonnes (note the unit change).
(2) Later Roman cranes were perhaps of a better tech which is undocumented.
(3) One tenth of the ‘lifting power’ (the correct term is load capacity) which means the blocks weighed 1000 tonnes.

Do you think the name calling is justified such as being incompetent or dishonest when yet again you demonstrate an inability of sticking to the same story from post to post?
Do I also need to remind you categorically stating that better tech was used in the past when you don't have a shred of evidence to support this is the argument from ignorance fallacy.

Here are the facts Roman cranes could not lift more than 60 tons which means they had used a different method to erect obelisks weighing at least 7X greater than the load capacity of their cranes.
We can thank the Renaissance engineer Domenico Fontana who was assigned the task of relocating the 330 ton Vatican obelisk in 1586 for writing a book on how he did it. Fontana was deeply familiar with ancient Roman engineering, which was rediscovered during the Renaissance period through texts like Vitruvius’ De Architectura.
He studied Roman lifting devices, especially their use of capstans, ropes, pulleys, and wooden scaffolds, which would have been used for obelisks, aqueducts, and large statues and how these could be improved on using Renaissance engineering methods.

From this the Roman method could be pieced together and how it differed from the Renaissance engineering in erecting the obelisk.

Engineering Aspect	Fontana (1586, Renaissance)	Romans (1st c. BCE–CE)	Similarity / Difference
Power Source	Manual labor and horse-driven capstans	Manual labor, possibly treadwheel-driven capstans	Similar – both relied on human-powered rotation systems
Lifting Mechanism	Vertical hoisting with 40 synchronized capstans around a timber tower	Gradual elevation using inclined ramps and capstans positioned along the slope	Different – vertical hoist vs. inclined lift
Load Control	Coordinated tension across all capstans using trumpet/flag signals	Multiple capstan teams coordinating by sight and voice	Similar – synchronized mechanical operation
Support Framework	Large timber A-frame tower reinforced with iron fittings	Timber frameworks, ramps, and scaffolds with earthen fill	Similar principles – different geometry
Ropes and Rigging	Heavy hemp ropes, pulleys, iron collars around shaft	Hemp ropes, pulleys, wooden rollers, levers	Similar – same materials and rigging types
Transportation	Obelisk moved on wooden sled over greased rollers on timber causeway	Sled dragged over rollers or transported by ship and re-erected using ramps and capstans	Similar – sled/roller transport
Alignment and Measurement	Used plumb lines, geometry, and measured calculations	Relied on skilled visual alignment and practical experience	Different – Fontana applied geometric precision
Safety and Load Management	Analytical stress calculations and scale modeling	Empirical control based on experience and proportion	Different – mathematical vs. empirical approach
Mechanical Coordination	40 capstans turning in exact synchrony around the obelisk	Distributed capstans working along ramps or lifting points	Similar – distributed mechanical coordination
Energy Efficiency	Maximized mechanical advantage through calculated rope paths and leverage	Depended on manpower and gradual slope for advantage	Different – Fontana optimized mechanical design

 

[Hans Blaster]

First others who are studying this disagree its nonsennse fullstop. You make that statement like its a verified fact. Thats part of the problem. Second just because we don't know what asterisms they used does not mean that they did not use them as part of mapping out some knowledge. We just have not worked that out.

But its the fact that they encoded some knowledge into these works thats the point. You think its all rubbish and that these asterisms are superstition and nothing. Others disagree and its part of discovering their knowledge.

You are using the fact we don't know as dismissing the entire idea that there may be advanced knowledge within those works that we are yet to fully understand.

It is nonsense because none of the people who worked on it have any expertise in any related field including astronomy.

Your line "Second just because we don't know what asterisms they used does not mean that they did not use them as part of mapping out some knowledge." expresses everything that is wrong about this "idea". It is just people *projecting* what they want to be the case (designs are "constellations") on to images from so far back we can't even compare them to a culture where we know what the images represent. The first written words are closer to our own time than to the GT enclosures. The whole thing is a fantasy and exercise in wishful thinking. To restate:

If we don't know what was meant by the carving then we can't draw conclusions about the meaning from it.

But still floods that may have wiped out cultures in that area and contributed to their flood myths. But why are they not associated. IT seems to be they were the result of glazial melts, damming up and sudden flooding. General massive flooding. Around the same time other areas were flooding during similar ice melts.

The fact is the indigenous peoples from that area tell us.
Indigenous oral histories from the region contain flood narratives that many believe are linked to these cataclysmic events, such as the Kalapuya tale of \"atswin\" (the flood) and the Sahaptin name "Laliik" for Rattlesnake Ridge, which translates to "stands above the water."

And what does this have to do with those tiny floods impacting world wide advanced civilization? (A: Nothing) Where the flood took places was several thousand feet above the current sea level.

How are they useless. Is your experience of colors or love or music useless to you.

​

We are talking about the ancient knowledge that cannot be tested by science. If it cannot be put to the test, it is useless.

Can astronomy explain why the pyramids in Egypt were built?​

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/space-science/astronomy-egyptian-pyramids

Pyramid precision

The ancient Egyptians used two bright stars in the Big Dipper and Little Dipper constellations to align their pyramids in a north-south direction, a British Egyptologist says. If she's right, we can now pin down the ages of the pyramids far more accurately than before. It's an "ingenious...

www.newscientist.com

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read from people who should know better. As I already wrote in the previous post, the only star you need to make a N-S line is the Sun. Everyday it will peak directly south with its shortest shadow. Build a long baseline for measuring it and you have a high precision N-S alignment. This is a basic wilderness skill I learned in Scouts. Making complicated measurements of stellar alignments is completely unnecessary. [SMH. To think actual astronomers wrote that. What an embarrassment.]

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Yes and they are saying that these discoveries are as they say rewriting and reshaping our understanding of human evolution and development. Being far more sophisticated in knowledge than we thought.

Echo from the Past: How Göbekli Tepe is Reshaping Our Understanding of the Neolithic

Popular Archeology - Echo from the Past: How Göbekli Tepe is Reshaping Our Understanding of the Neolithic

popular-archaeology.com

How Gobekli Tepe Rewrote the Origins of Civilization

How Gobekli Tepe Rewrote the Origins of Civilization | TheCollector

Gobekli Tepe is an ancient site that changed how people view early human history and is believed to have been built between 9600 BCE and 8200 BCE.

www.thecollector.com

Yes its all covered in journals and archeology.

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey | Cambridge Archaeological Journal | Cambridge Core

Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey - Volume 30 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

Representations of calendars and time at Göbekli Tepe and Karahan Tepe support an astronomical interpretation of their symbolism

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1751696X.2024.2373876

And that is fine, they are allowed to publish their works. I don't have a problem with that at all, what do you believe support ancient technology and lost knowledge in those articles?

I thought I was lol. I sure have linked a lot of amazing stone works. Many of these seem to have risen around the same time period. Like a peak in magnificant stone works. We see similar signatures of these stone works all over the world such as the pyramid. Is that not evidence.

Saying something looks too good to be true isn't evidence isn't evidence for any ancient technology or lost knowledge, no.

Actually not just stone work as not all cultures had access to stone. Its really about megaliths and stone seemed to have been the main works. But there were also land glyphs and works such as in south America. Massive monuments, shapes in the ground that can only be seen from above. Other works that used the landscape itself such as large natural rocks being worshipped or used as monuments ect.

I'll gladly read about them in journal articles.

The logic is if there was a flood and we have strong evidence. That most humans lived by water such as rivers and coast lines.

Only catastrophically quick floods are threats to humans.

Then it is logical that quite significant numbers were lost. Cities flooded or washed away. We see evidence for this flooding especially in the northern hemisphere.

Only if the cities actually existed before the flood.

Such as the Channeled Scablands in Washington carved by the Missoula floods,

Formed at the end of the last glacial age, what cities or remnants of cities have they found there?

the Black Sea deluge hypothesis supported by findings like ancient shorelines and drowned river valleys, and other evidence of large-scale floods in locations like North Africa, the Middle East, and Siberia.

So what underwater cities have they found there?

Its ongoing research. But there was definitely a big melt of the ide cap at the end of the last iceage and big flooding.

Ice cores reveal rapid Antarctic ice loss in the past

Ice cores reveal rapid Antarctic ice loss in the past - British Antarctic Survey

The first direct evidence that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet shrank suddenly and dramatically at the end of the Last Ice Age, around eight thousand years ago, is published in …

www.bas.ac.uk

The ICE thinned 450 meters over 200 years, what are catastrophic about that. How much would that increase the surface level of the oceans? Yes, coastal settlements might be lost but people would move to higher ground if it is on that timescale.

Most important we have the testimony of just about every culture on earth who tell us over and over again that there was a great disaster like a flood that actually wiped out their ancestors.

If the descendants are alive, the ancestors didn't die.

This is also evidence of a different kind. Testimonial evidence from lived reality that was passed down. But science relegates this as myth because it cannot be tested in a lab.

Are you calling me a moron lol. Oh sorry Muron lol.

No, I'm asking what is a Muron? You used the word in #812.

Well you will know of the research into electromagnetism and these sites around the world.

Eh, no. Electromagnetism describes the interaction of moving charged particles and magnetic fields. Or two charged particles in realtive motion to each other. Don't quote me on that, if you think you have a better explanation give it to me.

Especially the pyramids. Something to do with some sites being aligned in locations of higher electromagnetism.

Locations of higher electromagnetism, what does that even mean?

Or that some sites can generate electromagnetism.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

That is not what the study says (https://pubs.aip.org/aip/jap/articl...-of-the-Great-Pyramid?redirectedFrom=fulltext), where is the generation of electromagnetism. So they did a calculation, have anybody measured the radio frequency spectra inside the the Giza pyramid? All short wavelengths will be blocked, but if the wavelength is long enough I guess it can travel through some rock.

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies
There seems to be some indication that ancient people had some awareness of magnetism; maybe they were led to built temples upon what we can recognize today as geophysical anomalies.

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies

The location and concomitant potential geophysical properties of monumental sites is rarely considered in archaeology. In a previous paper by the same authors, the types of various geophysical anomalies are analyzed: geoelectrical, hydrogeophysical, geological. These anomalies originate mainly...

www.sciencepublishinggroup.com

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies. The abstract ends with them saying they are going to investigate 50 places in Greece with in-situ measurements. I really hope they choose those places randomly. We'll see if they get back to us with something interesting.

Hum I did not think there was suppose to be an orthodoxy to begin with. Thats not science. Whenever science gets dogmatic about orthodoxy like anything its going beyond science and into belief.

You're the one calling it the orthodoxy. I just made the observation that we will keep believing in the current state of affairs until we see data and analysis that convinces about some other state of affair.

Nowhere to be found.

You said the romans regularly wrote down when they lifted stones. Did they do that?

Except the modern narratives that insist the Romans built them. But not the Romans themselves. You would think that considering they liked to detail all their works and achievements that moving the biggest blocks in the world would have been something to brag about.

Do they normally brag about big blocks?

But more importantly describe in being able to achieve this as it would have required the greatest cranes ever built. Surely we would hear of such a feat.

No, why should we.

I noticed even Ai which is a review of many findings acknowledges the Romans built the temple on an existing platform that was already there.

That is not how LLMs work.

Which though not evidence does show that at least a large number of articles say the same thing. The evidence seems strong its not made by Romans. Different style, old looking, eroded far more than the Roman work, not typical lifting holes, no crane capable of lifting such weights, no records of them moving them even though they mention the temple.

If so point out the articles in peer-reviewed journals.

But this is an example of many sites and a bit like the vases where theres disagreement about origina and who made them. Which has not been resolved though there is growing evidence for earlier dates.

If there is something interesting here, it will get published and discussed.

Why is it always those who propose an alternative idea. It is the orthodox narrative that has no evidence and relies on assumption. I never see anyone calling for their evidence. They just acept it as fact without any evidence.

What you call the orthodox narrative is the collection of published peer-reviewed articles.

So lets say theres no concrete evidence. Does the rational I just gave of the erosion, age, lack of physical ability of the Romans, completely different signatures that align more with other ancient megalths and that there was a site before hand, ect seem a stronger case. Than the no evidence from the orthodoxy based on whoever built last on a site built it.

No, your case does not seem like the stronger case. Mostly because what you are putting forward as supporting information is often not peer-reviewed. And when it is, it often is highly speculative or doesn't support the conclusion you draw from it.

Is expert itself the qualification. Who is more an expert lol. Is it a competition of experts. Which scientists is more an expert on a site. One who visits once or 150 times and has more detailed observations because they have been there many more times to be able to properly examine it.

And you have not shown it is natural. Funny that. How about we say it may or may not be. We cannot rule either out at this stage.

That's true I haven't shown it natural. This is outside of my expertise, so I'll let the subject matter experts discuss it and give me their most probable explanation.

No Wiki8 cannot be trusted. Once again they just don't know and there is evidence its from an earlier time. Once again the signatures are different. But the point was regardless that there is evidence of very similar architecture from the same area.

The Ryukyu kingdom is far away from Honshu, with it's own history and culture. So where can I read about the age of the Mount Nokogiri quarry?

The Yonagumi monument as the name suggests is Japanese. The Mount Nokogiri quarry is Japanese. The similar signatures in other works such as at Peru are from a similar time if not also earlier works.

The Yonagumi monument is japanese only if it was created after 1609.

This is the problem. The orthodoxy keeps relegating these works to people who themselves say their culture did not make them. We just don't know. But to assume they are from X culture when we don't know is wrong. Or that there is evidence they are earlier and just ignore this.

What like circular saws. How do they even get up there to use the tool. You would need a saw 20 foot big. Even then they are cut into the face and not across. How does a saw move.

If the quarry is from the Edo period, I'm sure there are some rudimentary writings about how it was done somewhere.

Seems the good old orthodox methods can mimick everything from circular saws, lathes, giant graders, heavy lifters, almost magically.

Yes but the other forms like the Egyptian hyroglyphs were forms of written communication.

Hieroglyphs don't push the date back compared to cuneiform.

Alternative knowledge by its very nature is not testable by science. Its alternative because it cannot be tested by science. Like conscious experiences cannot be tested by science. They belong in a different paradigm.

If one can use that knowledge to change anything measurable you can test it by science.

Science can tests for the physical manifestations of brain activity. But the brain activity is not responsible for the experience.

Yes, it is.

Thats like saying the wires in a computer are responsible for consious experience. Or alternative knowledge from God. How do you test for that. Say someones prayers are answered.

Easy, does prayin heal chopped off limbs? No, then we know prayer doesn't do that. Do those that pray die less from famine with all other things the same? No? Then we know prayer doesn't do that.

Or God gives a revelation of knowledge. How do you test for that.

Because the deeper knowledge of nature may be experiencential which is a qualitative phenomena and not a quantified one. Science can only measure the quantified stuff. It will relegate the experiences or beliefs that bring the knowledge as something physical rather than immaterial. Belief is immaterial but brings knowledge.

In this case then its not lost. Its still happening. But it was a knowledge from the ancients. It was discovered by the ancients without science. It was part of their beliefs and experiences of being immersed in nature that they came up with it. They didn't have degrees in science where they worked out that this would be beneficial. ONly now we are beginning to understand this.

The point is they had medicines without the science. Its because they were immersed in nature. It was not just that they tried stuff. They understood nature as well and became aware of what worked and what did not.

Sure modern science is a modern thing. Of course, people could learn things before that, trial and error is a great teacher if it doesn't kill you first.

That they understood the workings of nature. The cosmos was associated with crops, and seasons and movements of wildlife and other aspects of nature. They were living synchronised to nature. They worshipped the sun and moon and stars. They were their guides. This was part of what gave them secrets of nature.

I'm sure they had a lot of experience with their immediate surroundings, and they may have codified it into religious practices. But so what, if the knowledge can be used to manipulate reality we can use science to describe it.

Like how the pyramids and other works are aligned to the sun and moon and stars. This brought knowledge and actually influenced their world. Do you think they just aligned these works to stars for nothing.

To the degree they aligned them after celestial objects they might have been important for them. But it has been possible to align things against celestial objects as long as there have been celestial objects and something to align.

 

[stevevw]

And that is fine, they are allowed to publish their works. I don't have a problem with that at all, what do you believe support ancient technology and lost knowledge in those articles?

Well I think as the articles generally allude to that just the level of sophistication of stone work, glyphs and layout is impressive and more advanced than we would have thought for that time. I mean people use to go on about Stone Henge but GT blows that out of the water and is 5 or 6,000 years earlier.

But its also the undiscovered knowledge we are still trying to work out. The meaninsg of the glyphs which may be associated with astronomy, seasons, or tell us something about their belief of that time in history.

Saying something looks too good to be true isn't evidence isn't evidence for any ancient technology or lost knowledge, no.

I never said that. I said we can see (as in find evidence) of these great works that rose up at a certain time around the world. As though this was a peak you could say in stone work and megalyths or land glyphes. Big mighty works that stand out. Just like we would say that a culture stands out for whatever specialist works they do.

I'll gladly read about them in journal articles.

Sure heres one. There are plenty if you want to do research.

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia - Volume 94 Issue 378

www.cambridge.org

Only catastrophically quick floods are threats to humans.

Sort of. Some flooding may have been sudden such as large pooled water from glazier melts bursting dames. There could also be earthquakes and volcanoes melting ice suddenly.

But during the end of the last iceage climate change had a relative quick affect in rising seas and rivers. All those sudden and ongoing floods would have cause some cultures on coasts to disappear over a generation or two. We see this happening now with Islanders in the South Pacific where their islands are flooding in the last 30 years or so.

Only if the cities actually existed before the flood.

What flood. There may be various floods throughout time that have wiped out cultures. They say cultures once lived on islands or on coasts before new settlements are built over them. Not just floods but various reasons cultures die out.

But if a flood happened at the end of the last iceage say 10,000 years ago there would be plenty of people and cultures. If humans go back 300,000 years there would have been plenty of time to build cultures. Thats 290,000 years of development. Considering they could make a wooden house near 500,000 years ago I think there was plenty of building going on. .

Formed at the end of the last glacial age, what cities or remnants of cities have they found there?

When I say cities I don't mean like down town New York or Sydney lol. The equivelant of a city or civilisation like the Egyptians or Inca or Pheonesians or Hebrews ect. But we are talking pre Egyptians ect. This comes back to the debate about how old many of these megaliths and works are.

But we have some clearly established like the 10,000 year old landglyphs. They mention an organised culture that was connected throughout South America with agriculture and social and religious sophistication.

The Egyptians themselves claim their culture and some of the great works come from before the pyramids.

So what underwater cities have they found there?

Theres plenty and there all over the world. Most have really only been discovered or rediscovered recently. They were ignored so we have to do more reserach. But some of these sites are 100's of meters and up to 2 km under water.

Also some ruins are on the coast and were once under water but it has since dried up. Others are inland at the bottom of rivers and inland seas. I think the Black and Caspian seas. Lake Van has some pre Sumarian ruins some 200 meters down.

Theres Gujarat, underwater city of Dwarka in India thats around 9,500 years old. The right time.

The mythical underwater city of Dwarka, India is 9,500 years old

The mythical underwater city of Dwarka, India is 9,500 years old - The Yucatan Times

Dwarka has commanded much attraction because the site is one of the four Dhamas (sacred place for pilgrimage) of the Hindu religion. As the legend goes, Krishna founded the city in Gujarat’s west coast.The modern city of Dwarka, which in Sanskrit means ‘Gateway to heaven’, is located north-west...

theyucatantimes.com

Ancient Egypt’s perfectly preserved underwater cities

Ancient Egypt’s perfectly preserved underwater cities, and how they were discovered

Two sunken cities have been found at the mouth of the river Nile.

www.newstatesman.com

Scientists Find Evidence of Mayan Underwater City

Abstracting Atlantis: Scientists Find Evidence of Mayan Underwater City

Today, we sit down with architectural historian and archaeologist Jes Alexander, who spearheaded the research team that discovered what could be a piece of real-life Atlantis.

www.huffpost.com

Ancient Ruins Discovered Under Lake in Turkey

Ancient Ruins Discovered Under Lake in Turkey

Video shows the remains of an ancient fortress sitting hidden beneath the lake's surface.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Mysterious underwater city older than the pyramids found

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/mysterious-underwater-city-older-than-the-pyramids-found/news-story/746ad375f2a1ce836b1dfff9edf03b50

Theres just too many and I can't be bothered sorting them.

The ICE thinned 450 meters over 200 years, what are catastrophic about that. How much would that increase the surface level of the oceans? Yes, coastal settlements might be lost but people would move to higher ground if it is on that timescale.

The evidence shows massive and sudden flooding in some areas. The fact that some cultures are up to 2 km under water shows this was more than a slow trickle. Nevertheless we see complex cities under water so these entire cities were lost. They may have left them earlier. But still they were lost in a relatively short time.

The world would have been in upheavel at times as it was not just floods. Floods and movement of plates causes earthquakes and eruptions and all sorts of chaos.

No, I'm asking what is a Muron? You used the word in #812.

Lol I actually did spell it wrong. It was Muon. I must have had moron on my mind and slipped a 'U' in lol. Its actually Muon, a Muon dectector in the Giza pyramid to find any cavities.

https://www.science.org/content/article/cosmic-rays-reveal-unknown-void-great-pyramid-giza#:~:text=This%20time%20around%2C%20after%20a,not%20involved%20in%20the%20work.

Eh, no. Electromagnetism describes the interaction of moving charged particles and magnetic fields. Or two charged particles in realtive motion to each other. Don't quote me on that, if you think you have a better explanation give it to me.

That seems like it. I am not a physicists. But basically I think electric currents can create a magnetic field. Or a magnetic field exerts a force on a moving electrical charge.

Anyway whatever it is it seems some sites have more electromagnetism and that the Giza pyramid can focus electromagnetic energy into its chambers.

Locations of higher electromagnetism, what does that even mean?

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

That is not what the study says (https://pubs.aip.org/aip/jap/articl...-of-the-Great-Pyramid?redirectedFrom=fulltext), where is the generation of electromagnetism. So they did a calculation, have anybody measured the radio frequency spectra inside the the Giza pyramid? All short wavelengths will be blocked, but if the wavelength is long enough I guess it can travel through some rock.

Man I don't know this stuff lol.

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt’s pyramids: There’s a strange form of energy

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt's pyramids: There's a strange form of energy

Scientists discovered the Great Pyramid of Giza focuses on electromagnetic energy, sparking new insights into ancient engineering and modern tech applications.

www.ecoticias.com

The Possible Relation Between Ancient Monuments and Geophysical Anomalies. The abstract ends with them saying they are going to investigate 50 places in Greece with in-situ measurements. I really hope they choose those places randomly. We'll see if they get back to us with something interesting.

Like the rest its ongoing. I think that since modern tech with all these scanners, and detectors its taken research into these ancient works to a new level. But its relatively new so more time is needed.

You're the one calling it the orthodoxy. I just made the observation that we will keep believing in the current state of affairs until we see data and analysis that convinces about some other state of affair.

I don't think orthodoxy works that way. Its something that is held onto despite the evidence. Like a paradigm shift. It won't be abandoned until theres too much evidence to deny it any longer. It chips away at convention. Like the BB theory or Darwinian evolution.

You said the romans regularly wrote down when they lifted stones. Did they do that?

How do you think we know about their cranes and other works. They wrote down their feats. A bit like the Egyptians on Steles and Glyphs about who conquered who and who made what. Though the pharoahs always painted themselves as victors and making everything especially Ramses.

Do they normally brag about big blocks?

The Egyptians did and the Romans sort of took over as the greater Empire. I don't know. But such a big even or achievement would have been noted. Maybe they did and it was lost. But its all the evidence together that makes the case.

Especially the erosion and older age and the different style, strange grating marks like other ancient blocks and the fact that there was a site before it there.

No, why should we.

Ah because it would have been the greatest crane even built. We know of all their other cranes and stuff. If they had such a crane then they would have used it many times. But more importantly such a crane would completely put a spanner in the orthodox narrative.

In fact the idea of some mega crane in the annuls is so far out of place that there should not be any records of such a crane. Theres no progression in developing bigger cranes or anything near that. It would amount to a massive jump in tech from out of knowwhere and be a mystery in itself.

What you call the orthodox narrative is the collection of published peer-reviewed articles.

You seem to place a lot of importance on peer review. You do realise it has been shown to be biased and can post false and sloppy work.

If we look at the attitude of some who immediately dismiss even the mention of alternative ideas and possibilities. We can see that this is really about worldviews. So alternative ideas sometimes don't even make it to peer review because they are rejected beforehand as not meeting the criteria of what they deem as science.

This happens in Quantum physics and Consciousness studies.

No, your case does not seem like the stronger case. Mostly because what you are putting forward as supporting information is often not peer-reviewed. And when it is, it often is highly speculative or doesn't support the conclusion you draw from it.

The good old piece of paper that suddenly makes things fact. Some of the greatest ideas were rejected by the mainstream journals.

That's true I haven't shown it natural. This is outside of my expertise, so I'll let the subject matter experts discuss it and give me their most probable explanation.

So as you can see there is the orthodoxy and there is these scientists proposing other possibilities and neither have completely established the truth. Though we can look at their evidence and see which one is closer to the truth.

But if all these sites are being debated then it could be there are many examples of advanced cultures all over the world that have disappeared.

The Ryukyu kingdom is far away from Honshu, with it's own history and culture. So where can I read about the age of the Mount Nokogiri quarry?

Theres not much at all really and its a bit of a mystery like many of these sites. Some say these are from the Edo period, while others say pre Edo and from the Jomon period that goes back 14,000 years. Japan and China's prehistory is very interesting and they have some amazing megaliths.

"Pre-Historic Mega Structures of Japan & Unexcavated Giant Tombs" - Full Transcript Inside! | YTScribe

[TRANSCRIPT] Japan, an archipelago steeped in history, has remarkable megalithic structures from a time long lost to our history books. These monumental sites, ...... Read the full transcript now!

ytscribe.com

If the quarry is from the Edo period, I'm sure there are some rudimentary writings about how it was done somewhere.

The problem again like the Egyptian examples is that the tools they had are inadequate for cutting such sharp and large cuts. Especially up high.

Hieroglyphs don't push the date back compared to cuneiform.

I am not sure what you mean. I am not saying cuneiform pushes the date back. I am saying that you don't have to have writing to be advanced in communication, belief or socialisation. I am saying these prehistory ancients could still communicate.

If one can use that knowledge to change anything measurable you can test it by science.

Yes but its what is assumed as the cause. For example say a miracle in the bible. Peter had knowledge of performing a miracle that defied naturalism. Science would look for a physical and naturalistic explanation. They may be able to measue the physical activity that happens but cannot verify the nature of what cause this. They will say its a naturalistic cause but if its really a miracle then its a supernatural cause.

The same with conscious experiences where acience will say its the physical brain and yet subjective experiences cannot be within the neurons and synapes like wires and computer codes.

I gave the example of how the ancients may have known how to soften stone which made it easier to work with. If somehow the ancients knew the secrets of nature and could toy around with physical makeups of stones then this would be hard for science to verify. They are more likely to say it was achieved through the conventional manner of hard work, methological steps with traditionaal tools ect.

Yes, it is.

Can you scientifically verify that. Or is this assumption. Apart from asking the experiencer directly. How else can you verify the brain is actually causing the experience. Physical things, non mind and conscious processes cannot create mind and conscioussness.

It would be like a brass bottle actually creates a Genie lol. Or the wires and softwars in a computer created the experience of music or love. I don't think Ai is going to fall in love with humans lol.

Easy, does prayin heal chopped off limbs? No, then we know prayer doesn't do that. Do those that pray die less from famine with all other things the same? No? Then we know prayer doesn't do that.

Thats not easy. Thats conflating all sorts of unrelated correlations that you have not verified to begin with. Its also full of assumptions you have not explained. Like the idea that miracles may not work on demand. Christ even said that calls for miracles will not be given to unbelievers.

But how can you then say to someone who testifies a miracle that it is not so. How can you deny the testimonies of many people in the bible including many who died believing so. What tests can you use to disprove testimony or experience. You can't. So its not easy.

But what this does show is my point about different worldview paradigms which are actually beliefs and not science. A belief based on an assumption about fundemental reality either being all naturalistic and material in nature or something beyond with possibilities of defying the physical. In fact is fundemental and causing the physical. The other way around.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Well I think as the articles generally allude to that just the level of sophistication of stone work, glyphs and layout is impressive and more advanced than we would have thought for that time. I mean people use to go on about Stone Henge but GT blows that out of the water and is 5 or 6,000 years earlier.

It can be impressive (I'm certain the archeologists that work there think so), without invoking ancient technology or lost knowledge.

But its also the undiscovered knowledge we are still trying to work out. The meaninsg of the glyphs which may be associated with astronomy, seasons, or tell us something about their belief of that time in history.

That is also perfectly fine, they'll work that out and explain it if the data allows it.

I never said that. I said we can see (as in find evidence) of these great works that rose up at a certain time around the world. As though this was a peak you could say in stone work and megalyths or land glyphes. Big mighty works that stand out. Just like we would say that a culture stands out for whatever specialist works they do.

I alluding to your classification of these works as out-of-place, they are not out-of-place.

Sure heres one. There are plenty if you want to do research.

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia - Volume 94 Issue 378

www.cambridge.org

Good, here is the abstract

Hypotheses concerning climatic change during the Amazonian Holocene often assume that the presence of ancient charcoal from forest fires indicates periods of drier climate in the past. These theories, however, neglect the possibility that such charcoal may result from early human activity. This article presents new evidence of anthropogenic ash and charcoal accumulation in the state of Acre, Brazil, dating back to c. 10 000 cal BP, which questions the value of charcoal as a proxy for phases of natural climate aridification. Carbon isotope (δ13C) values also suggest no significant changes in Holocene climate or vegetation. If these results are confirmed, previous studies on Amazonian Holocene climate will require re-evaluation

What is the connection to ancient technology and lost knowledge?

Sort of. Some flooding may have been sudden such as large pooled water from glazier melts bursting dames. There could also be earthquakes and volcanoes melting ice suddenly.

Yes, there could have been. There probably are at least a few places around the world where it actually have happened, that some kind of settlement was destoyed by a storm or a flash flood.

But during the end of the last iceage climate change had a relative quick affect in rising seas and rivers. All those sudden and ongoing floods would have cause some cultures on coasts to disappear over a generation or two. We see this happening now with Islanders in the South Pacific where their islands are flooding in the last 30 years or so.

Yes, but these timescales doesn't destroy cultures.

What flood. There may be various floods throughout time that have wiped out cultures. They say cultures once lived on islands or on coasts before new settlements are built over them. Not just floods but various reasons cultures die out.

You said in post #823:

Then it is logical that quite significant numbers were lost. Cities flooded or washed away. We see evidence for this flooding especially in the northern hemisphere.

To which I answered

Only if the cities actually existed before the flood.

What cities were washed away?

But if a flood happened at the end of the last iceage say 10,000 years ago there would be plenty of people and cultures.

Would be? Could be? Were? Find the cultures first then we can speculate what they technological level and knowledge they had.

If humans go back 300,000 years there would have been plenty of time to build cultures. Thats 290,000 years of development. Considering they could make a wooden house near 500,000 years ago I think there was plenty of building going on. .

So where are the traces of these flooded cultures then?

When I say cities I don't mean like down town New York or Sydney lol. The equivelant of a city or civilisation like the Egyptians or Inca or Pheonesians or Hebrews ect. But we are talking pre Egyptians ect. This comes back to the debate about how old many of these megaliths and works are.

But we have some clearly established like the 10,000 year old landglyphs. They mention an organised culture that was connected throughout South America with agriculture and social and religious sophistication.

The earlier referenced article? Religion is not mentioned in that one. What are you talking about?

The Egyptians themselves claim their culture and some of the great works come from before the pyramids.

Theres plenty and there all over the world. Most have really only been discovered or rediscovered recently. They were ignored so we have to do more reserach. But some of these sites are 100's of meters and up to 2 km under water.

Journal articles?

Also some ruins are on the coast and were once under water but it has since dried up. Others are inland at the bottom of rivers and inland seas. I think the Black and Caspian seas. Lake Van has some pre Sumarian ruins some 200 meters down.

Theres Gujarat, underwater city of Dwarka in India thats around 9,500 years old. The right time.

View attachment 371914

This is an artists rendering of Dwarka.

The mythical underwater city of Dwarka, India is 9,500 years old

The mythical underwater city of Dwarka, India is 9,500 years old - The Yucatan Times

Dwarka has commanded much attraction because the site is one of the four Dhamas (sacred place for pilgrimage) of the Hindu religion. As the legend goes, Krishna founded the city in Gujarat’s west coast.The modern city of Dwarka, which in Sanskrit means ‘Gateway to heaven’, is located north-west...

theyucatantimes.com

Journal articles?

Ancient Egypt’s perfectly preserved underwater cities

Ancient Egypt’s perfectly preserved underwater cities, and how they were discovered

Two sunken cities have been found at the mouth of the river Nile.

www.newstatesman.com

They were finally lost in the 1800s (after starting sinking in the 800s), not due to any flood.

Scientists Find Evidence of Mayan Underwater City

Abstracting Atlantis: Scientists Find Evidence of Mayan Underwater City

Today, we sit down with architectural historian and archaeologist Jes Alexander, who spearheaded the research team that discovered what could be a piece of real-life Atlantis.

www.huffpost.com

Have they reported any findings yet? Quote from the article:

Jes Alexander: Well, we believe we have found the remains of an ancient city on the sea floor in the Western Caribbean. It is important to note that we have yet to be to the site, but what we believe we have found is the remains of an ancient city that was formerly above sea level, and perhaps as much as 4500-8000 years old. This has nothing to do with another site, found almost 10 years ago by a Canadian/Russian team working to map the sea floor near the Yucatan Peninsula. Their site is nearly 2 miles below the sea floor. The site we are working with is much shallower - in between 40 and 70 feet of water. We initially found anomalous objects by mapping a grid and searching the sea floor using simple Google Earth technology. As we zeroed in on the site location, we sought out other satellite imagery and ocean floor maps to arrive at this hypothesis.

Ancient Ruins Discovered Under Lake in Turkey

Ancient Ruins Discovered Under Lake in Turkey

Video shows the remains of an ancient fortress sitting hidden beneath the lake's surface.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Not excavated, and believed to be about 3000 years old. And the surrounding civilization survived perfectly fine.

Mysterious underwater city older than the pyramids found

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/mysterious-underwater-city-older-than-the-pyramids-found/news-story/746ad375f2a1ce836b1dfff9edf03b50

Not excavated yet, let's see what they find.

Theres just too many and I can't be bothered sorting them.

Choose one of them and we can see what has been published about it.

The evidence shows massive and sudden flooding in some areas. The fact that some cultures are up to 2 km under water shows this was more than a slow trickle. Nevertheless we see complex cities under water so these entire cities were lost. They may have left them earlier. But still they were lost in a relatively short time.

Thus far, your examples of lost cities don't seem to have much published about them. Choose your favorite one and we can look into it.

The world would have been in upheavel at times as it was not just floods. Floods and movement of plates causes earthquakes and eruptions and all sorts of chaos.

Sure, so what?

Lol I actually did spell it wrong. It was Muon. I must have had moron on my mind and slipped a 'U' in lol. Its actually Muon, a Muon dectector in the Giza pyramid to find any cavities.

https://www.science.org/content/article/cosmic-rays-reveal-unknown-void-great-pyramid-giza#:~:text=This%20time%20around%2C%20after%20a,not%20involved%20in%20the%20work.

Ok, and this is evidence of what exactly (more than that there might be cavitites).

That seems like it. I am not a physicists. But basically I think electric currents can create a magnetic field. Or a magnetic field exerts a force on a moving electrical charge.

Anyway whatever it is it seems some sites have more electromagnetism and that the Giza pyramid can focus electromagnetic energy into its chambers.

It's not the sites that have more electromagnetism.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

The link I gave you is the journal article for this popular scientific article.

Man I don't know this stuff lol.

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt’s pyramids: There’s a strange form of energy

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt's pyramids: There's a strange form of energy

Scientists discovered the Great Pyramid of Giza focuses on electromagnetic energy, sparking new insights into ancient engineering and modern tech applications.

www.ecoticias.com

This is referring the same article I linked earlier.

Like the rest its ongoing. I think that since modern tech with all these scanners, and detectors its taken research into these ancient works to a new level. But its relatively new so more time is needed.

When they find them they will excavated by archeologists, then when they report their findings is the time to speculate.

I don't think orthodoxy works that way. Its something that is held onto despite the evidence. Like a paradigm shift. It won't be abandoned until theres too much evidence to deny it any longer. It chips away at convention. Like the BB theory or Darwinian evolution.

And that evidence need to be published in journals and peer-reviewed.

How do you think we know about their cranes and other works. They wrote down their feats. A bit like the Egyptians on Steles and Glyphs about who conquered who and who made what. Though the pharoahs always painted themselves as victors and making everything especially Ramses.

So how many text do we have?

The Egyptians did and the Romans sort of took over as the greater Empire. I don't know. But such a big even or achievement would have been noted. Maybe they did and it was lost. But its all the evidence together that makes the case.

No, every piece you want to use as evidence need to be scrutinized by itself.

Especially the erosion and older age and the different style, strange grating marks like other ancient blocks and the fact that there was a site before it there.

And this is detailed where, in which article?

Ah because it would have been the greatest crane even built. We know of all their other cranes and stuff. If they had such a crane then they would have used it many times. But more importantly such a crane would completely put a spanner in the orthodox narrative.

Why?

In fact the idea of some mega crane in the annuls is so far out of place that there should not be any records of such a crane. Theres no progression in developing bigger cranes or anything near that. It would amount to a massive jump in tech from out of knowwhere and be a mystery in itself.

This is all you're speculation.

You seem to place a lot of importance on peer review. You do realise it has been shown to be biased and can post false and sloppy work.

It is the least worst system we have tried so far.

If we look at the attitude of some who immediately dismiss even the mention of alternative ideas and possibilities. We can see that this is really about worldviews. So alternative ideas sometimes don't even make it to peer review because they are rejected beforehand as not meeting the criteria of what they deem as science.

Conspiracy theories.

Just a heads up, in the future I'm more interested in diving deep on a single thing than trying to talk about 10 things with questionable relevance. I ran out of characters

 

[stevevw]

It can be impressive (I'm certain the archeologists that work there think so), without invoking ancient technology or lost knowledge.

That is also perfectly fine, they'll work that out and explain it if the data allows it.

I alluding to your classification of these works as out-of-place, they are not out-of-place.

Good, here is the abstract
What is the connection to ancient technology and lost knowledge?

Yes, there could have been. There probably are at least a few places around the world where it actually have happened, that some kind of settlement was destoyed by a storm or a flash flood.

Yes, but these timescales doesn't destroy cultures.

You said in post #823:

To which I answered

What cities were washed away?

Would be? Could be? Were? Find the cultures first then we can speculate what they technological level and knowledge they had.

So where are the traces of these flooded cultures then?

The earlier referenced article? Religion is not mentioned in that one. What are you talking about?

Journal articles?

This is an artists rendering of Dwarka.

Journal articles?

They were finally lost in the 1800s (after starting sinking in the 800s), not due to any flood.

Have they reported any findings yet? Quote from the article:


Not excavated, and believed to be about 3000 years old. And the surrounding civilization survived perfectly fine.

Not excavated yet, let's see what they find.

Choose one of them and we can see what has been published about it.

Thus far, your examples of lost cities don't seem to have much published about them. Choose your favorite one and we can look into it.

Sure, so what?

Ok, and this is evidence of what exactly (more than that there might be cavitites).

It's not the sites that have more electromagnetism.

The link I gave you is the journal article for this popular scientific article.

This is referring the same article I linked earlier.

When they find them they will excavated by archeologists, then when they report their findings is the time to speculate.

And that evidence need to be published in journals and peer-reviewed.

So how many text do we have?

No, every piece you want to use as evidence need to be scrutinized by itself.

And this is detailed where, in which article?

Why?

This is all you're speculation.

It is the least worst system we have tried so far.

Conspiracy theories.

View attachment 371918

Just a heads up, in the future I'm more interested in diving deep on a single thing than trying to talk about 10 things with questionable relevance. I ran out of characters

Lol I was thinking similar. I was getting fed up with the longer and longer posts on more and more examples and more detail of more examples. It was piling up lol.

Funny you should say that because the thread sort of started out as an overview of whether the orthodox view of human history was flawed. But it quickly turned into a specific example of the precision vases because it naturally progressed that way.

If the claim is the narrative is flawed and human history tells another story of advanced knowledge that may have been lost. Then specific examples can support this. Evidence demands specifics.

Though I do think there is a reasoned arguements for why cognitively, sociologically and culturally we should expect that there is lost advanced knowledge and I have tried to articulate this over the thread.

Ok let me look at the last post and see if there is anything I can pull out. Did you have something in mind.

The problem is advanced knowledge is not always about tech. Though it may look like tech. Such as if the precision vases were softened then simple tech will do. Saws cut easier through soft stone and it can be shaped and molded.

Maybe something about a specific aspect of the possible advanced knowledge. Like whether there is evidence they softened stones. Or they had some knowledge of chemical reactions or sources of power like the pyramids ect. Rather than looking at the end result in the works which could be argued either way.

I don't know. I sort of give up now lol. Its not as fun anymore. But don't worry I will get re-inspired later. I do enjoy the adventure of diving into the history of the ancients.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Lol I actually did spell it wrong. It was Muon. I must have had moron on my mind and slipped a 'U' in lol. Its actually Muon, a Muon dectector in the Giza pyramid to find any cavities.

No need to capitalize, just "muon". Atmospheric cosmic ray muons can be measured with detectors *below* pyramids and the find regions of less muon absorption indicating large voids in the structure.

https://www.science.org/content/article/cosmic-rays-reveal-unknown-void-great-pyramid-giza#:~:text=This%20time%20around%2C%20after%20a,not%20involved%20in%20the%20work. That seems like it.

as show in that article.

I am not a physicists.

I keep that in mind. It is good to be humble about gaps in ones knowledge.

But basically I think electric currents can create a magnetic field. Or a magnetic field exerts a force on a moving electrical charge.

Both are true, but not what was measured.

Anyway whatever it is it seems some sites have more electromagnetism and that the Giza pyramid can focus electromagnetic energy into its chambers.

Nope. It is just bending of EM radiation at different energies due to different bulk properties of matter.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

Man I don't know this stuff lol.

A good reason to keep away from it, especially after being informed that it is not what the woo peddlers like Dunn are selling. Stay strong, Steve.

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt’s pyramids: There’s a strange form of energy

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt's pyramids: There's a strange form of energy

Scientists discovered the Great Pyramid of Giza focuses on electromagnetic energy, sparking new insights into ancient engineering and modern tech applications.

www.ecoticias.com

That was, umm, not great. A bunch of recapitulation, a lot of ads and a tiny amount of "content" which was rather speculative and not supported by the article they were quoting. It saddens me when sites promoting "green/environment" stuff get sucked in by things that aren't real.

I skipped forward a bit to get to the end of this section, but first...

You seem to place a lot of importance on peer review. You do realise it has been shown to be biased and can post false and sloppy work.

Peer review is not magic, nor a certification of correctness. No one claims it is. Peer review is about making sure the methodology and conclusions are sound. The "bias" claims are usually whinging from people who do sloppy work with bad methodology, etc.

If we look at the attitude of some who immediately dismiss even the mention of alternative ideas and possibilities. We can see that this is really about worldviews. So alternative ideas sometimes don't even make it to peer review because they are rejected beforehand as not meeting the criteria of what they deem as science.

We dismiss things that have been rejected. Things that go contrary to evidence. Things that go counter to we founded and established physical principles. Journals also reject things that are not in their scope with out review, no matter how good they might be.

This happens in Quantum physics and Consciousness studies.

I will remind you what you wrote above. Remember you are not a physicist. (This is also completely off topic.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

Just a heads up, in the future I'm more interested in diving deep on a single thing than trying to talk about 10 things with questionable relevance. I ran out of characters

Wow. I didn't even know there was a limit.

 

[stevevw]

No need to capitalize, just "muon". Atmospheric cosmic ray muons can be measured with detectors *below* pyramids and the find regions of less muon absorption indicating large voids in the structure.

Yes this was used to find voids in the pyramid and underneath.

as show in that article.

I keep that in mind. It is good to be humble about gaps in ones knowledge.

Its good to know that you don't know everything. But luckily I can read and I read a lot and can discover what the experts saying in those fields.

Both are true, but not what was measured.

Then why did they say they were measuring electromagnetism.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza
The Great Pyramids are able to focus electromagnetic energy, particularly electromagnetic waves of the radio frequency range. Researchers discovered resonant features associated with the Pyramid’s electromagnetic dipole and quadrupole moments. Specifically, mathematical analysis indicated that the structure’s inner spaces and foundation resonate when hit by external radio waves with a wavelength of 200 to 600 meters, and can control the propagation, scattering, and concentration of this electromagnetic energy. Under these resonant conditions electromagnetic field distributions inside the Pyramid are found to be channeled and concentrated into the Pyramid’s chambers.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

Scientists uncover how Egypt’s Great Pyramid manipulates electromagnetic waves.
In a groundbreaking discovery, researchers have found that the Great Pyramid of Giza can focus electromagnetic energy. This revelation significantly impacts our understanding of ancient engineering and potential modern applications. This article delves into the details of this historic discovery and its potential impact on future technologies.

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt's pyramids: There's a strange form of energy

Scientists discovered the Great Pyramid of Giza focuses on electromagnetic energy, sparking new insights into ancient engineering and modern tech applications.

www.ecoticias.com

Nope. It is just bending of EM radiation at different energies due to different bulk properties of matter.

The how do you explain the above articles which clearly state the pyramid can focus electromagnetic energy. This is what I mean by knowledge. You say I am not a physicists which I agree and that I should listen to physicists. Here I have 2 or more physicists saying one thing and another saying the opposite.

Who am I to believe. Everyone is complaining about lack of peer review and here we have it being rejected and in place lack of peer review in making a claim without one bit of peer review. Obvious double standards.

A good reason to keep away from it, especially after being informed that it is not what the woo peddlers like Dunn are selling. Stay strong, Steve.

Hum I've got some pretty good science behind me it seems lol. Maybe you are too skeptical. Loosen up Hans lol. Besides I like Dunns thinking. At least he has imagination and thinks outside the box. In some ways that is true science.

I will say that as far as I understand from others critiquing his ideas is that he is rigorious in the maths and calculations and analysis behind what he says. Now he may have got that wrong. But its certainly not some idea without any science.

As per other independent articles that sort of say similar. Because that is what Dunn is saying with electromagnetism. But also microwaves. But basically the same thing that the shafts and chambers can concentrate energy in the chambers. Specifically from memory the Kings chamber.

I think we may have found an example we can investigate as to the validity of the Giza pyramid being an energy generator. Advanced lost knowledge and tech.

That was, umm, not great. A bunch of recapitulation, a lot of ads and a tiny amount of "content" which was rather speculative and not supported by the article they were quoting. It saddens me when sites promoting "green/environment" stuff get sucked in by things that aren't real.

Gee your hard to please lol. Ok well its a start. Generally speaking I think this is similar to the other articles and Dunn. So we are gathering more scientists who support the idea.

I skipped forward a bit to get to the end of this section, but first...

Peer review is not magic, nor a certification of correctness. No one claims it is. Peer review is about making sure the methodology and conclusions are sound. The "bias" claims are usually whinging from people who do sloppy work with bad methodology, etc.

Ah no the bias is bias lol. Well not outright bias. But bias nonetheless. It is inherent in humans. You can't take the subjective out of the equation.

We dismiss things that have been rejected. Things that go contrary to evidence. Things that go counter to we founded and established physical principles. Journals also reject things that are not in their scope with out review, no matter how good they might be.

We also reject stuff that goes against our prior assumptions and beliefs. Confirmation bias is a natural human inclination. If one doesn't believe in God then metaphysically only certain evidence is counted. Everything is explained in naturalistic and physical causes. So this will be the metaphysical belief about fundemental reality.

As opposed to someone who is open to whatever it is that is beyond the material. Two completely different paradigms with their own language, methods of measurement, what counts as evidence, and what is allowed and disallowed.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I'm not reading 42 pages of this, but is the TL;DR of it that SteveVW still refuses to accept mainstream archaeological evidence on the ancient Egyptians for crackpot theories that cannot be actually supported by anything except conspiracy theories?

 

[BCP1928]

We also reject stuff that goes against our prior assumptions and beliefs. Confirmation bias is a natural human inclination. If one doesn't believe in God then metaphysically only certain evidence is counted. Everything is explained in naturalistic and physical causes. So this will be the metaphysical belief about fundemental reality.

As opposed to someone who is open to whatever it is that is beyond the material. Two completely different paradigms with their own language, methods of measurement, what counts as evidence, and what is allowed and disallowed.

This appears to be what all of your arguments boil down to in the end, isn't it? A slanderous falsehood about the epistemology of science.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes this was used to find voids in the pyramid and underneath.

Its good to know that you don't know everything. But luckily I can read and I read a lot and can discover what the experts saying in those fields.

Then why did they say they were measuring electromagnetism.

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza
The Great Pyramids are able to focus electromagnetic energy, particularly electromagnetic waves of the radio frequency range. Researchers discovered resonant features associated with the Pyramid’s electromagnetic dipole and quadrupole moments. Specifically, mathematical analysis indicated that the structure’s inner spaces and foundation resonate when hit by external radio waves with a wavelength of 200 to 600 meters, and can control the propagation, scattering, and concentration of this electromagnetic energy. Under these resonant conditions electromagnetic field distributions inside the Pyramid are found to be channeled and concentrated into the Pyramid’s chambers.

It wasn't a measurement. It was a theoretical study. I can't get to the original

Study Reveals Electromagnetic Properties of the Great Pyramid of Giza - The International Space Federation (ISF)

There has been a number of recent scientific discoveries about the Great Pyramids of Giza using technologically advanced methods. For instance, a methodology

spacefed.com

As best I can tell this site is some sort of fantasy physics tech grifter site.

Scientists uncover how Egypt’s Great Pyramid manipulates electromagnetic waves.
In a groundbreaking discovery, researchers have found that the Great Pyramid of Giza can focus electromagnetic energy. This revelation significantly impacts our understanding of ancient engineering and potential modern applications. This article delves into the details of this historic discovery and its potential impact on future technologies.

First-of-its-kind discovery in Egypt's pyramids: There's a strange form of energy

Scientists discovered the Great Pyramid of Giza focuses on electromagnetic energy, sparking new insights into ancient engineering and modern tech applications.

www.ecoticias.com

I already wrote about this "news site". You don't need to repost it.

The how do you explain the above articles which clearly state the pyramid can focus electromagnetic energy. This is what I mean by knowledge. You say I am not a physicists which I agree and that I should listen to physicists. Here I have 2 or more physicists saying one thing and another saying the opposite.

Who am I to believe. Everyone is complaining about lack of peer review and here we have it being rejected and in place lack of peer review in making a claim without one bit of peer review. Obvious double standards.

I already said that peer review was not proof or magic. Quit pretending that it is.

Hum I've got some pretty good science behind me it seems lol. Maybe you are too skeptical. Loosen up Hans lol. Besides I like Dunns thinking. At least he has imagination and thinks outside the box. In some ways that is true science.

Dunn is not an original thinker. He is a nutjob/grifter. He's just making up stuff and trying to sell it to people. (We have a theme today.)

I will say that as far as I understand from others critiquing his ideas is that he is rigorious in the maths and calculations and analysis behind what he says. Now he may have got that wrong. But its certainly not some idea without any science.

I've seen no math rigorous or not from Dunn.

As per other independent articles that sort of say similar. Because that is what Dunn is saying with electromagnetism. But also microwaves. But basically the same thing that the shafts and chambers can concentrate energy in the chambers. Specifically from memory the Kings chamber.

Microwaves are electromagnetic waves.

I think we may have found an example we can investigate as to the validity of the Giza pyramid being an energy generator. Advanced lost knowledge and tech.

I can't assess a paper I haven't read.

Gee your hard to please lol. Ok well its a start. Generally speaking I think this is similar to the other articles and Dunn. So we are gathering more scientists who support the idea.

I require evidence. Everyone should be hard to please.

Ah no the bias is bias lol. Well not outright bias. But bias nonetheless. It is inherent in humans. You can't take the subjective out of the equation.

We also reject stuff that goes against our prior assumptions and beliefs. Confirmation bias is a natural human inclination. If one doesn't believe in God then metaphysically only certain evidence is counted. Everything is explained in naturalistic and physical causes. So this will be the metaphysical belief about fundemental reality.

As opposed to someone who is open to whatever it is that is beyond the material. Two completely different paradigms with their own language, methods of measurement, what counts as evidence, and what is allowed and disallowed.

Science doesn't study gods or supernatural stuff.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

This appears to be what all of your arguments boil down to in the end, isn't it? A slanderous falsehood about the epistemology of science.

It is also not a confirmation bias to believe as the OP believes and refuses to accept any evidence to the contrary?

 

[BCP1928]

It is also not a confirmation bias to believe as the OP believes and refuses to accept any evidence to the contrary?

Of course what the OP believes is ***The Truth*** so there can be no legitimate evidence the contrary.