The Reality of Free Will

[CoreyD]

Precisely. . .any moral choice man is unable to make means his will is not free in that regard.

If he cannot choose to give up his alcohol, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.

If he can give it up, his will is free in that regard.

If man cannot choose to be sinless, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.

No fallen man has complete free will. . .he has only limited free will

I don't understand this.
Are you saying a person who gives into weakness - thus making a choice to be immoral, makes all men the same, and therefore no man can choose not to practice sin?

 

[CoreyD]

Freedom is moral power. . .and addicts don't always have the moral power to overcome addiction. . .they are not morally free.

That is not true Clare.
Think about what you are saying.
Addicts can overcome addiction... and have.
Because some haven't, because of not taking the wise course, does not mean they can't.

Jesus said mankind was a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

You can understand this scripture correctly, if you want to.

You either believe Jesus, or you don't.

Yes, and he isn't saying what you said.
The Greek word is doing in regard to practicing.
Some translations can help with that. As well as the scriptures I supplied you with. Galatians 6:6, 16, 17
Why do you ignore them?

 

[CoreyD]

Please keep in mind that my comments about the "Will" are strictly in the moral/immoral context.

The definition of freewill in Greek that you have given above is an adjective, not a noun. It describes a certain type of action or choice that is uncoerced/voluntary.

Elsewhere, you identify a free will as a free agent. That term is describing a will in a state of equivocation between two masters and therefore is for all intents and purposes depicting an undecided soul in a state of equivocation ---> See doublemindedness, also understand why Jesus would say this ---> "You can't serve two masters".

Neither of these meanings are applicable to any description consistent with Adam being made with a free will. I can't actually comment on the scriptures you provided as 'proof' of a free will since the definitions of free will you provided are inconsistent. For the sake of clarity, you need to specify what the will is free from when you claim a free will.

The only coherent meaning of the term free will as a noun that I can see in scripture is a will qualified as free from sin. That would also be consistent with the free will that God gave Adam when he was created.

Thank you for taking the time to consider the OP, and respond to it.
Can I answer based on what you understand from, first of all...

1 Timothy 2:14​

Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.​

The Bible says Adam was not deceived.​

Thus Adam acted on his own free will.​

Do you disagree?

 

[Aaron112]

The Bible says Adam was not deceived.Thus Adam acted on his own free will.
Do you disagree?

The Bible is the Breathed Word of The Magnificent Almighty Everlasting Truthful Real Creator of all things.

Men almost always oppose the Bible and are violently against the Creator (men oppose God).

hmmm...... who to trust ?

JESUS! HALLELUJAH FOREVER !

 

[Aaron112]

Did God create his intelligent children with free will?
Though many whether religious or non religious claim not, and argue against this, the answer is clearly yes.

Curious in a way. Looking at mankind and all the christendom and religions that act stupid and ungodly every day,

the answer may not be clear at all.

 

[Aaron112]

However, there is Jesus' statement that all men are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

Do slaves of righteousness desire to escape from the government of YHVH's Kingdom/ Jesus ?

 

[childeye 2]

Thank you for taking the time to consider the OP, and respond to it.
Can I answer based on what you understand from, first of all...

1 Timothy 2:14​

The Bible says Adam was not deceived.​

Thus Adam acted on his own free will.​

Do you disagree?

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I see the question you posted above. However, I cannot agree or disagree without you first qualifying what YOU mean by "his own FREE will". To be clear, I can say with complete certainty that we each have our own individual will exactly like Isaiah 53:6 conveys above, but what is the will supposedly free from when you say it? We really need to qualify what the will is free from when we assert a free will (noun), otherwise it's not a stable term to reason upon.

We need to acknowledge that there is a carnal will that seeks one's own comfort and avoids discomfort. The flesh is hardwired to like pleasure and dislike pain.

We also have to acknowledge that the context of 1 Timothy 2:14 is not about a will (noun) at all. It's about whether the man should have authority over the woman.

As pertains to the intent of your question and 1 Timothy 2:14, it looks to me like Paul is expressing his opinion that the woman should not usurp authority over the man based upon the reasoning that the man was made first (woman was made from a piece of the man) and also that the man was not the one deceived (in the garden).

Therefore, I do not think this scripture can be used to infer that Adam or Eve, in a state of innocence/ignorance, were capable of avoiding the events set in motion by the serpent who, by the way, is markedly described as the craftiest creature. If I am to assume that Eve's actions are more excusable because she at least was beguiled, it would be contradictory for Paul to say that the man, who unlike Eve has no such excuse, should be in charge over the woman because he knew exactly what he was doing when he counted God as untrustworthy.

Not only that, but we know that God told Adam his mistake was listening to the woman (who was deceived), God did not say "Adam, you knew exactly what you were doing was wrong". Furthermore, since I don't believe God is disparaging the female as unworthy to ever listen to; I think God is saying that Adam should have trusted to his own judgment and not been so malleable to the woman.

As for who should be in charge, elsewhere in scripture Paul states that there is no Jew or gentile or male or female, for we are all one in Jesus Christ. With the understanding that the greatest is the one who serves the rest, that sounds to me like it doesn't matter if you're a woman or man.

Finally, the assertion that mankind has a free will is often used to apply blameworthiness, or some measure of culpability for wickedness and sin. This type of freewill theology is based on the either-or question of who is to blame for sin, man or God?

 

[Hentenza]

Not suggesting. Just asking... Are you saying that free will means making only right choices?

No. We actually make plenty of bad choices. If we didn’t then we would never have to confess our sins. I always confess my known sins and ask forgiveness for any sins that I might have committed unknowingly. One reason here why I do not have the free will to not sin.

 

[CoreyD]

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I can't agree or disagree without you first qualifying what you mean by "his own free will". I can say with certainty we each have our own individual will just like Isaiah 53:6 shows above, but what is the will supposedly free from? We really need to qualify what the will is free from when we assert a free will, otherwise it's not a stable term to reason upon.

That's why I asked, Can I answer based on what you understand, because I wanted to see if you understood what you read in the OP. Evidently you don't.
I am wondering how I can make it any clearer. I realize it cannot be made any simpler, so, I'll have to point out what you need to pay attention to.

Starting with John 8:44, with God's heavenly children - the spirit creation, called angels, the Bible says of the one called Devil and Satan... When he lies, he speaks out of his own character. That is... pertaining to self, or of his own
How can that be simplified? Of his own... Out of his own self....

Perhaps if you link what Jesus said to that. Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, slanders.
The heart pertains to the inner self... what a person is on the inside.

The angel that sinned... unlike Jesus, and the faithful angels, rebelled, even though he did not have sin... was not born in sin, but acted on his own - self - what is in him - his heart.
The disciple James uses this term in this way...

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire

James 1:14
Jesus thus makes clear that the angel that became Satan the Devil, acts according to his own will, or desire.

What else can be meant by his own will, other than acting freely?
The Greek term, which you said is an adjective, and not a noun, is hekousios - meaning free will - the neuter of a derivative from hekon; voluntariness -- willingly, which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).

This is not talking about someone's will, in the sense of my will, your will - the noun, but as it says willing; unforced; deliberate action; voluntary; acting on one's own accord. Which seals the point that free will refers to something done freely.. without anyone or anything forcing it.
All intelligent beings have this ability to act freely of their own.
So, going back to angels and men... how can this be made simpler? Having the freedom to act on one's own accord, in harmony with one's own desires.

I referred to the scriptures which refer to man's free will, repeatedly.
Leviticus 1:3; 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 Deuteronomy 30:19; 2 Corinthians 9:7; Philemon 1:14
Deuteronomy 30:19, 20, is a key scripture which very simply makes clear that man has freedom of choice. That is what free will is... The freedom to choose to act on one's own accord... voluntarily; willingly; unforced; deliberate... which is what Adam did, in accord with his desires.
Can this be made any simpler?

Despite sin, which Adam did not have before making a free choice, man still has this ability, which is why God requires man worship him willingly; unforced; voluntarily; acting on one's own accord.

We need to acknowledge that there is a carnal will that seeks one's own comfort and avoids discomfort. The flesh is hardwired to like pleasure and dislike pain.

We also have to acknowledge that the context of 1 Timothy 2:14 is not about a will. It's about whether the man should have authority over the woman.

It looks to me like Paul is expressing his opinion that the woman should not usurp authority over the man based upon the reasoning that the man was made first (woman was made from a piece of the man) and also that the man was not the one deceived (in the garden).

I don't think this scripture can be used to validate that Adam or Eve in a state of innocence/ignorance were capable of avoiding the events set in motion by the serpent who is markedly described as the craftiest creature. If I am to assume that Eve's actions are more excusable because she at least was beguiled, it would be contradictory for Paul to say that the man who has no such excuse, should be in charge over the woman because he knew exactly what he was doing when he counted God as untrustworthy.

Not only that, we know that God told Adam his mistake was listening to the woman, but since I don't believe God is disparaging the female as unworthy to ever listen to, I think God is saying Adam should have trusted to his own judgment and not been so malleable to the woman.

As for who should be in charge, elsewhere in scripture Paul states that there is no Jew or gentile or male or female, for we are all one in Jesus Christ. With the understanding that the greatest is the one who serves the rest, that sounds to me like it doesn't matter if you're a woman or man.

Finally, the assertion that mankind has a free will is often used to apply blameworthiness, or some measure of culpability for wickedness and sin. This type of freewill theology is based on the either-or question of who is to blame for sin, man or God?

From conversing with persons on this subject, I find that most do not understand free will, and either philosophize it, confuse it with perfection, or over think it.
It's not complicated at all.

 

[CoreyD]

No. We actually make plenty of bad choices. If we didn’t then we would never have to confess our sins. I always confess my known sins and ask forgiveness for any sins that I might have committed unknowingly. One reason here why I do not have the free will to not sin.

Thank you.
Many people make bad choices because they fail to apply this advice. Proverbs 2:1-12
Many suffer, because they keep company with the foolish ones.

Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20​

When we read the Bible, and come across scriptures like Psalm 119, we see that God's word provides the light that keeps us on the path to righteousness. Not perfection, here and now, but a clean standing before God, and we avoid the things that lead to us sinning.

Consider this...
Some people try to get as close to sin as possible without actually committing the sin. How wise is that?
Is it not true that the farther away we flee from sin, the less we sin.
Think of what God said of Job, and other servants of his.

There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. Job 1:1​

Job was not a perfect man. If that can be said of a man born in sin, it can be said of anyone who acts wisely.

 

[Clare73]

Where did you get this?
God does not have free will Hosea 14:4, and there is no word for free will Hebrew; Greek? It doesn't exist?
Is that what you are saying here?

It's not about God, it's about man.

Nowhere does the Bible state that man has a "free will."
Rather, Jesus said that mankind is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves (to sin) are not (morally) free. . .they cannot choose to be sinless.

The scriptures disagree. Leviticus 1:3; 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 Deuteronomy 30:19; 2 Corinthians 9:7; Philemon 1:14

The word here is "voluntary," not "free will."

If one ignores the scriptures Galatians 5:1, 13; Galatians 6:6, 16, 17, they will believe that.
Free will is the ability to act on one's own accord; unforced, of one's own will, voluntary; willing deliberate action (choice).

No, complete free will (which is the only true free will) is the power (freedom) to make all moral choices.
Man does not have that power, he cannot choose to be sinless. . .man's free will is limited.

You need to mention one particular moral choice men cannot make.
Otherwise, this statement has no meaning.
Please name one particular moral choice men cannot make. Just one.
We don't need a list.

Can man choose to live sinlessly?

 

[Clare73]

Do slaves of righteousness desire to escape from the government of YHVH's Kingdom/ Jesus ?

All unregenerate mankind are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) until they are born again.

 

[Clare73]

I don't understand this.
Are you saying a person who gives into weakness - thus making a choice to be immoral, makes all men the same, and therefore no man can choose not to practice sin?

Do you know of anyone who can choose to practice absolutely no sin, can choose to live completely sinless?

If not, then man's will is not free to make all moral choices, only some moral choices, for man cannot choose to make the moral choice of living sinlessly.

Complete freedom of the will is the power to make all moral choices, which man cannot do. . .he cannot choose to live totally sinlessly.
Adam could. . .fallen man cannot. . .he lost that power in the fall.

 

[childeye 2]

That's why I asked, Can I answer based on what you understand, because I wanted to see if you understood what you read in the OP. Evidently you don't.

We need to qualify what the will is free from, when we assert a free will. Who can understand what it means if it's not qualified?

I am wondering how I can make it any clearer. I realize it cannot be made any simpler, so, I'll have to point out what you need to pay attention to.

Starting with John 8:44, with God's heavenly children - the spirit creation, called angels, the Bible says of the one called Devil and Satan... When he lies, he speaks out of his own character. That is... pertaining to self, or of his own
How can that be simplified? Of his own... Out of his own self....

I understand what a self-will is. That is why I posted this:

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Notice that there is no term "free" being used in Isaiah 53:6. Isaiah 53:6 is talking about being self-willed. You are using John 8:44 above to describe being self-willed.

Please note that 2 Peter 2:10 is saying that to be self-willed is to walk in servitude to the flesh.

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Self-willed = carnal-willed = the will of the flesh.
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Perhaps if you link what Jesus said to that. Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, slanders.
The heart pertains to the inner self... what a person is on the inside.

This we can agree on --> the children born of the devil have the same character as their father --> evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, slanders.

The children born of the Spirit of God have the same Character as their Father. --> But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. <-- God is Spirit.

The angel that sinned... unlike Jesus, and the faithful angels, rebelled, even though he did not have sin... was not born in sin, but acted on his own - self - what is in him - his heart.
The disciple James uses this term in this way...

James 1:14
Jesus thus makes clear that the angel that became Satan the Devil, acts according to his own will, or desire.

What else can be meant by his own will, other than acting freely?

The tares like obscurity and darkness because they don't want to be found.
The wheat like clarity and Light because they want to be found.

Therefore, it's wrong to use unqualified terms that obscure rather than clarify.

The devil will use semantics to obscure the truth. For example, below are two opposite meanings of free wills using this dichotomy Free/slave, but only one is truly free and the other is a lie.

(1) A will that is free from righteousness and is therefore a slave to unrighteousness.
(2) A will that is free from unrighteousness and is therefore a slave to righteousness.

The Greek term, which you said is an adjective, and not a noun, is hekousios - meaning free will - the neuter of a derivative from hekon; voluntariness -- willingly, which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).

This is not talking about someone's will, in the sense of my will, your will - the noun, but as it says willing; unforced; deliberate action; voluntary; acting on one's own accord. Which seals the point that free will refers to something done freely.. without anyone or anything forcing it.

Jesus said these words below so as to indicate that people will do/act according to the inner character of the soul which implies a pre-disposition. Hence the carnal will/self-will serves the desires of the flesh, and those desires are not voluntary.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You see the above underscored in bold? Now look at this -->
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

All intelligent beings have this ability to act freely of their own.
So, going back to angels and men... how can this be made simpler? Having the freedom to act on one's own accord, in harmony with one's own desires.

People who are blinded by lies do not represent intelligence nor an ability to act freely of their own.

One's own desires are predicated upon one's image of God/god in their heart. The angel that became Satan had a corrupt image of god and so do his children.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I referred to the scriptures which refer to man's free will, repeatedly.
Leviticus 1:3;

This scripture is referring to a voluntary offering. It is an adverb, not a noun as in a man's will.

1 Corinthians 9:16-18

I see Paul conveying that he does NOT volunteer to preach the Gospel.

He does NOT preach the Gospel willingly. He does it because he has to --> (a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me).

Deuteronomy 30:19;

This is a choice/option to either do these commandments or die. It is the exact opposite of unforced.

2 Corinthians 9:7;

This is exhorting us to be liberal concerning our being charitable. Charity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit of Truth, it is not self-willed.

Philemon 1:14

This scripture is simply saying Paul doesn't want Philemon to feel forced about receiving Onesimus.

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20, is a key scripture which very simply makes clear that man has freedom of choice. That is what free will is...

This is why we need to qualify what the will is free from when we assert free will. Here you're now saying it means we have two options to choose from Life or death which now means it's NOT voluntary --> Do these commandments or be cursed and die.

Below is the Merriam Webster definition for volition. If you will notice #1, the term WILL standing alone without the adjective "FREE" added, already denotes the ability to reason and make choices/decisions.

volition​

noun​

vo·li·tion vō-ˈli-shən
və-

Synonyms of volition
1
: the power of choosing or determining : will

2
: an act of making a choice or decision
also : a choice or decision made


will
2 of 3

noun​

ˈwil
1
: a legal declaration of a person's wishes regarding the disposal of his or her property or estate after death
especially : a written instrument legally executed by which a person makes disposition of his or her estate to take effect after death

2
: desire, wish: such as
a
: disposition, inclination
where there's a will there's a way

b
: appetite, passion
c
: choice, determination

3
: the act, process, or experience of willing : volition

4
a
: mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending
b
: a disposition to act according to principles or ends
c
: the collective desire of a group
the will of the people


5
: the power of control over one's own actions or emotions
a man of iron will


6
a
: something desired
especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power.

The freedom to choose to act on one's own accord... voluntarily; willingly; unforced; deliberate... which is what Adam did, in accord with his desires.
Can this be made any simpler?

I don't know why you would think Adam desired to disobey God. The scriptures actually show that Adam didn't volunteer to eat, he was persuaded by the woman who was deceived --> And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Despite sin, which Adam did not have before making a free choice, man still has this ability, which is why God requires man worship him willingly; unforced; voluntarily; acting on one's own accord.

No, this above is incorrect. God is Spirit. The True worship of God is drawn out by the object of worship, it's not a choice/decision. When we become fully convinced that God's Spirit is the Light of the soul and the only goodness in our soul that keeps us from becoming abominations, then we will worship Him in Truth.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

From conversing with persons on this subject, I find that most do not understand free will, and either philosophize it, confuse it with perfection, or over think it.
It's not complicated at all.

In this post I'm responding to you've identified 4 different meanings of "free" will:

(1) Being "self"-willed (a carnal will, a noun).
(2) You've identified a "willingness" (an adverb) as proof of a "free" will, when in fact It only requires a will (noun) to have willingness (adverb).
(3) A "voluntary" or "freewill" choice (an adjective).
(4) The presence of a choice/option to either do these commandments or die was claimed as proof of a free will even though it's not voluntary. In fact, the presenting of a choice/option to either do these commandments or die is NOT even a product of man's will, it is a situation where a choice/decision must be made out of necessity.

 

[Aaron112]

The tares like obscurity and darkness because they don't want to be found.
The wheat like clarity and Light because they want to be found.

Therefore, it's wrong to use unqualified terms that obscure rather than clarify.

i.e. tares like rules that protect their dark and wrong motives ? Yet want to be heard/ 'found'/ 'popular'/ 'accepted'/ 'listened to' / 'attention' ........ a real mix of mostly or all shellfish motives/intents/purposes easy to hide online ......
When tares are in power, in control, what becomes of the average 'normal' person who doesn't know this ?

 

[childeye 2]

i.e. tares like rules that protect their dark and wrong motives ?

Perhaps. I believe one's motives are going to be predetermined by one's image of God/god living in their heart.

Yet want to be heard/ 'found'/ 'popular'/ 'accepted'/ 'listened to' / 'attention' ........ a real mix of mostly or all shellfish motives/intents/purposes easy to hide online ......
When tares are in power, in control, what becomes of the average 'normal' person who doesn't know this ?

I don't have an answer other than God is sifting, refining.

 

[Aaron112]

Perhaps. I believe one's motives are going to be predetermined by one's image of God/god living in their heart.

God , or more often, a god.... like the prince of evil.....

 

[Aaron112]

I don't have an answer other than God is sifting, refining.

Recognizing God Arranging all things is actually a good , scriptural, answer.....

 

[childeye 2]

God , or more often, a god.... like the prince of evil.....

So how exactly do you perceive the term Elohim <--plural?

 

[Aaron112]

So how exactly do you perceive the term Elohim <--plural?

Why does it matter at all in your scheme of things?