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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Hans Blaster

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So science tests beliefs and finds they are make believe. I am glad we sorted that one out.
No science tests hypotheses, not beliefs.
Now you will just have to convince the majority who believe and have done for most of our history. Thank God for the enlightened ones.
Science isn't interested in your beliefs. You should go about your business.
I just did, belief in God. Show me how science has shown belief in God or God Himself is false and not a possibility.
It is not something science would even bother trying to test.
Heres another without God. The experiences of transcedent aspects such as beauty, love, hate, envy, morals, music, sunsets, the awe of the universe that transcends us.
Have you not noticed that science does not concern itself with any of those things?
What about colors. The experience of red.
Color perception is an area of psychology. If you want to know more, read a basic HS-level psychology textbook.
The philosophical thought experiment known as Mary's Room or the knowledge argument, created by philosopher Frank Jackson. In the experiment, Mary, a neuroscientist, has learned everything there is to know about color from a black-and-white world but has never actually perceived color. The central question is whether she learns new knowledge when she regains sight and sees red for the first time.

Mary is a brilliant scientist living in a completely black-and-white environment, with no experience of color. She learns everything there is to know about the physics, biology, and neural processing of color vision through books and screens.

The thought experiment asks if Mary learns anything new when she finally leaves her monochrome world and experiences the color red for the first time, such as by seeing a red apple.

Jackson used this thought experiment to argue that there are aspects of consciousness, like the subjective experience of "qualia" (the "what it's like" to see red), that cannot be fully captured by purely physical descriptions.

Likewise other direct experiences of the world and reality may also impart knowledge that about reality that is not gained by physical processes such as brain activity.

I am surprised you do not know of this philosophical debate about conscious experience. Phenomenal belief is part of conscious experiences. It gives us knowledge beyond the world. Transcedent knowledge. We live by this everyday. Thus we believe it like we do gravity. Its just we cannot verify it empirically as it belongs in a different aspect of reality.
Don't care about philosophy.
In fact modern science is trending towards such ontologies where consciousness or information or knowledge itself is the fundemental reality and not the material world. This is not just religion.
Ha!
 
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stevevw

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What is the basis for this speculation?
The locals lol. They keep hitting and digging up bits of T pillars all over the place. But no one has ever escavated for various reasons.

I just linked 5 such sites I think. Karahan Tepe, Mendiktepe, Boncuklu Tarla, Nevalı Çori, and Hamzan Tepe. I mentioned the Taş Tepeler region which includes several other sites being investigated, such as Harbetsuvan Tepesi and Sefer Tepe. Aşıklı Höyük and Hacilar are also in this region.

EARLY VILLAGE-LIKE SITES IN SOUTHEASTERN TURKEY
Archaeologists working across the region over the last several decades have uncovered more than 20 sites dating to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period (ca. 12,000 to 10,200 years ago). These sites share characteristics such as monumental architecture, often in the form of T-shaped or rounded pillars and large decorated stone benches.

Sorry that was actually uncovering 20 plus sites. Thats not counting the undiscovered ones that have been mentioned by farmers in fields and by others who point out the same type of mounds that have never been escavated.
What does the unexcavated part of GT have to do with your claim?
It expands the culture and level of sophistication. Its not just an isolated site but a network of sites and a larger organised culture and socialisation.
Don't post google search links. They have embedded tracking information. Find a descriptive page and link that.
The problem is your disputing the claims and then asking for the evidence. I would have thought if someone is making such claims they would have done all this research themselves.

I linked a full article above. But the example of the many sites around Eastern Turkey can be easily sources. Why did you not look this up yourself before making out its all spectulation.

The google search was meant to be a direct link so I don't know what happened. But trust you to fixate on the small error. You could have just clicked into any of the links as they all say the same thing. Its no big secret and something you should have known anyway if your claiming its all spectualtion.

Malta is a good example of how the orthodoxy claims these megaliths are only around 5,700 years old when its obvious they are older. The story goes that Malta was inhabited by simple farmers 10,000 years ago then left or died out.

Then around 3,800BC it became inhabited again by a small group who managed to create 30 sites all over the island with all these megaliths some up to 50 tons and calve them without any metal tools in around 200 years.

No precusors, no buildup, no trial and error in developing tech or skills. Just bang in a short time these megalithes appeared all over the Island. It amounts to the fastest leap in history.

Very much like Gobekli Tepe in places. The level of erosion in some of the blocks looks very old.

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I Visited Malta's Ruins… And They Might Rewrite History

 
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Ophiolite

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So science tests beliefs and finds they are make believe. I am glad we sorted that one out. Now you will just have to convince the majority who believe and have done for most of our history. Thank God for the enlightened ones.
I attribute your bizarre answer to the lack of clarity in my post. A scientist has a thought, a speculation, a belief: "I believe there is a relationship between the sphericity of quartz grains and the distance they have travelled from their source." They test that belief by gathering evidence that will either confirm, or refute the belief. Beliefs, in this system, are tested against reality. You want to follow a system, you do follow a system, wherein beliefs are tested against other beliefs.
I just did, belief in God. Show me how science has shown belief in God or God Himself is false and not a possibility.
I need to be clear that I understand you. You have offered belief in God as an example of the "better understanding" which ancient peoples derived from these "other methods" that was superior to what was thought the case by experts in the relevant field. That was what I asked for. I do not see how a belief in God represents an answer to that request.
The second sentence is irrelevant, since I have never claimed that science has shown God to be impossible. And it would be ludicrous for me to claim that a belief in God was impossible, given the abundant evidence given on this forum that their are many believers. (They can't all be lying.)

Edit: I have just noticed a post from @Hans Blaster where he notes, correctly, that scientists test hypotheses, not beliefs. While strictly correct I suggest that, colloquially, many a scientist will say something along the lines of "I believe I know what's going on with these unusual high gamma ray readings in the sandstone".
 
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Hans Blaster

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The locals lol. They keep hitting and digging up bits of T pillars all over the place. But no one has ever escavated for various reasons.

I just linked 5 such sites I think. Karahan Tepe, Mendiktepe, Boncuklu Tarla, Nevalı Çori, and Hamzan Tepe. I mentioned the Taş Tepeler region which includes several other sites being investigated, such as Harbetsuvan Tepesi and Sefer Tepe. Aşıklı Höyük and Hacilar are also in this region.
No you posted Google search links. I ain't click those things with the trackers embedded in them. Just copy/paste the URL in your address bar *AFTER* you click on the link and visit the page.
EARLY VILLAGE-LIKE SITES IN SOUTHEASTERN TURKEY
Archaeologists working across the region over the last several decades have uncovered more than 20 sites dating to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period (ca. 12,000 to 10,200 years ago). These sites share characteristics such as monumental architecture, often in the form of T-shaped or rounded pillars and large decorated stone benches.

Sorry that was actually uncovering 20 plus sites. Thats not counting the undiscovered ones that have been mentioned by farmers in fields and by others who point out the same type of mounds that have never been escavated.
Very cool. I'm trying to keep up on such things, but someone keeps distracting me with nonsense about vases.
It expands the culture and level of sophistication. Its not just an isolated site but a network of sites and a larger organised culture and socialisation.

The problem is your disputing the claims and then asking for the evidence. I would have thought if someone is making such claims they would have done all this research themselves.

I linked a full article above. But the example of the many sites around Eastern Turkey can be easily sources. Why did you not look this up yourself before making out its all spectulation.
Don't assume I've read everything you have. I need links because you have posted so much garbage pseudo archeology that without a link I have no reason to trust your judgement on the topic.
The google search was meant to be a direct link so I don't know what happened. But trust you to fixate on the small error. You could have just clicked into any of the links as they all say the same thing. Its no big secret and something you should have known anyway if your claiming its all spectualtion.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Edit: I have just noticed a post from @Hans Blaster where he notes, correctly, that scientists test hypotheses, not beliefs. While strictly correct I suggest that, colloquially, many a scientist will say something along the lines of "I believe I know what's going on with these unusual high gamma ray readings in the sandstone".
Having dealt with creationists for many years on this site, I work hard to remove word from my vocabulary.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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By archeologists acknowledging that sophisticated, social and religious cultures existed way earlier than we thought.

Just within eastern Turkey there are suppose to be at least 20 GT yet to be unearthed. They are usually in the form of a mound, hense GT was known as Pot belly hill. there are many and tests have intitially found evidence. But even GT itself is only around 1/10th discovered. Its pretty big.

Other sites similar to Göbekli Tepe include Çatalhöyük, Karahan Tepe and Nevalı Çori, Taş Tepeler in Turkey. Also Malta's Megalithic Temples and Caral-Supe and other sites in the Americas including Peru.
But what have been found here that points to ancient technology and lost knowledge?
But if we were around for 300K and our brains were more or less the same then it seems unreal that it took us so long to invent stuff. How do we know we have not already gained certain knowledge only to lose it and start again. At least in sections of the planet.
Don't just say that it could have happened, show that it has happened.
If civilisation was concentrated around certain areas that also suffered catastrophe then it makes sense that over 300,000 years we have had big changes to the earths climate, or disasters, earth quakes, floods, ect. We have the mass extinction event of Mega Forna only around 12,000 years ago which would have wiped out humans as well.
Mega fauna? Humans lived through that.
Hum we already have sort of. Petrie found it and so did others. I agree lets escavate it as its one of the last great treatsures of the Egyptians. Thats unless we find something under the Gixa pyramids in the meantime lol.

Discovery of secret tunnels below Egypt's Giza pyramids linked to forgotten underworld

So let them excavate them.
Yes the temple of Venus that sits on top of the megalith foundations which were already there and from an earlier time. Other large megalth blocks such as the 'Pregnant Women' which weights 1200 ton and another 1500 ton are still in the ground.

The tech knowledge comes in the form of being able to cut and move such massive blocks so early in time. Even the Romans could not move these mega blocks of granite.

View attachment 371832
References please, because the one find says the stones are from roman times.
Since when did nature create near perfect stairs.

View attachment 371844
Apart from Dr Kimura, most experts seems to think it's a natural formation.
There is disagreement and scientists also think it man made. It resembles other prehistory megaliths and signatures like this at Mount Nokogiri Japan. Its very similar to other sites like Sayhuite, Peru.

View attachment 371839 View attachment 371840 View attachment 371841
Why would you try to muddy the waters with pictures from a different place?
A lead Yonaguni expert Dr Kimura presented at the 11th Annual Symposium on Maritime Archaeology and History of Hawaii and the Pacific , they found quarry marks all over, the loop road that winds around the bottom just like the other quarries with over 150 dives, Kimura has studied the site more extensively.

By the way, how do you think they cut the sharp edges on the cliff faces up so high. Some 200 feet abover the ground. Was that a hand saw. Did they pound and rub them into existence.
What are you talking about here?
I think they mean that the blade was as sharp as a metal surgical blade. So a non metal precusor to a very sharp cutting tool. I think the real point is that its 12,000 years old.
What did you mean? Stone and glass is not metals. Stone and glass can create very sharp edges.
Ah they mean they work lol. They can be thrown to catch prey and not go sideways or lose direction when thrown through the air lol.
So did they spears I made when I was 10 years old. It is not something that points to ancient technology and lost knowledge.
I was asking about the timeframe for this "In Colombia, the San Agustín statues—hulking figures from 8000 BCE—suggest a culture with sophisticated tools and thinking." back in your post #785 not the spears.

No that if humans were building wooden shelters near 500,000 years ago it would be no surprise that they have developed some advanced knowledge along the way and then lost it. Probably more than once. Or in certain places throughout time.
You need to show that it has happened, not just say it could have happened. If you're using words like probably I would like to see the explicit reasoning preferably with numbers.
The chances of humans gaoing all sorts of knowledge that we don't even understand seems great considering we have only developed our advanced knowledge in the last 5,000 years.
Writing is the secret ingredient, together with professionalization is my guess for why things have happened the last 10000 years.
Especially knowledge in our recent past around 8,000 to 14,000 years ago with the megaliths and out of place works that speak of a peak in knowledge that more or less dissappear fairly suddenly.

How most cultures speak of this as advanced knowledge lost from the gods. No to say that this is from the gods but that it was a higher and deeper knowledge of nature and reality that allowed them to achieve such great works.
Can you be more specific?
No experience itself is subjective, You experience something about what it is like to experience that something lol. It has to be qualified or rather quantified. That is science. Its using sense data and applying it to a quantified measure according to an assumption and the empirical evidence that comes from experiemnets ect.

But if you notice the initial phenomena of the world and reality is experiencential. Experiences immersed in reality. So science is trying to detach itself from this 1st person experience to then quantify whats happening according to a prior assumption that its fundementally naturalistic.

Science (methological naturalism) will only look for and count the naturalistic (phyical and observable) causes. Science has to remove the subject from the equation to be able to do its work.

Yet experience is really a subjective phenomena and we can gain knowledge of reality directly through experiencing it which cannot be measures quantitatively. Is not material or physical. So already science omits a large chunk of possibility as a non cause.

It is this experiential knowledge that I think is related to the ancients and how they were immersed in nature and by extention reality in the 1st person. So they were able to gain knowledge of reality through direct experiences. Which enabled them to understand some of its secrets to be able to manipulate it. Or understand ways in how nature itself worked and utilised it.
You are using empirical different than me then. We have had interactions with indigenous people all the way into the 20th century, nowhere have they showed any fantastic abilities.
 
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stevevw

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I attribute your bizarre answer to the lack of clarity in my post. A scientist has a thought, a speculation, a belief: "I believe there is a relationship between the sphericity of quartz grains and the distance they have travelled from their source." They test that belief by gathering evidence that will either confirm, or refute the belief. Beliefs, in this system, are tested against reality. You want to follow a system, you do follow a system, wherein beliefs are tested against other beliefs.
Yes you are describing the process of empirical science. The question is what is it testing. Is it a particular kind of reality. The quantified aspect that only science can measure.

Tell me how you can test this way for say phenomenal beliefs or experiences like love and beauty. Are these not also real. If someone has a persistent belief about something that they intuit is this not real. How do you explain belief in God. How do you test that God is not real.

You can't. So therefore science can only test a limited aspect of reality. The physical stuff, the naturalistic process that conform to certain measures ie particles, fields, chemicals, forces ect. It has nothing to say about conscious experiences or phenomenal beliefs. Trying to clobber belief or experience with science is like saying the soundwave vibrations of cat gut scraping on strings explain the experience Mozarts music. .
I need to be clear that I understand you. You have offered belief in God as an example of the "better understanding" which ancient peoples derived from these "other methods" that was superior to what was thought the case by experts in the relevant field. That was what I asked for. I do not see how a belief in God represents an answer to that request.
Because its not just about belief in God but consciousness. Consciousness of God, gods and spirits. It was not the specific religion but that all were immersed in a spiritual context. Obviously the more we go back before rationalisations and all that people believed in more transcedent ideas.

If you notice all the cultures have their spirituality that is intertwined with nature. Animals are spirits, crops are aligned to the sun and moon, stars are their guides. They were immersed in nature spirtually. Which is not necessarily a belief in the Christian God. But a natural disposition for humans even today. Except since Enlightenment we have rationalised ourselves away from this more transcedent worldview.

The bible mentions all know God by nature. So as we go back to a time that was closer to creation for all these cultures the more they were closer to God or the gods. The more spiritual.

Of course a Christian will say the true source is the God of the bible. But for the purposes of culture and human nature we are natural born believers and the further we go back the more in tune we were with the spiritual world whicvh gave knowledge unlike modern knowledge. All the cultures tell this story and it seems to match out evolution and we hear them say that this knowledge is disappearing.
The second sentence is irrelevant, since I have never claimed that science has shown God to be impossible. And it would be ludicrous for me to claim that a belief in God was impossible, given the abundant evidence given on this forum that their are many believers. (They can't all be lying.)
So why do people deny the beliefs in the gods of the ancients. Their own stories of what they say is real events like what the bible says.
Edit: I have just noticed a post from @Hans Blaster where he notes, correctly, that scientists test hypotheses, not beliefs. While strictly correct I suggest that, colloquially, many a scientist will say something along the lines of "I believe I know what's going on with these unusual high gamma ray readings in the sandstone".
It is an idea proposed. A possible explanation to account for the observations. But this is all premised on a certain aspect that is being tested. The quantified stuff. Do you think fundemental reality is 'Matter'. That there is only a material reality. Many people believe in an immaterial reality.

Science cannot test this. So using science to refute it is impossible. When someone asks for evidence they are asking that an immaterial reality conform to a material reality and if it cannot. Then it is not real, is something the material reality conjures up. But nothing real or no real knowledge can be derived from the immaterial realm. The only reality is material or physical objective reality.
 
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stevevw

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No you posted Google search links. I ain't click those things with the trackers embedded in them. Just copy/paste the URL in your address bar *AFTER* you click on the link and visit the page.
OK, it seems something went wrong as it usually goes through to the page.
Very cool. I'm trying to keep up on such things, but someone keeps distracting me with nonsense about vases.
Come on keep up if you want to travel down the rabbit hole of "all possibilities" lol. Its fun. The vases are the vases. They come up as a necessary evil as part of investigating ancient advanced knowledge and tech.

But its only one of many. I am not sure you will keep up as I have already done this and have the research. But I will try to ensure the right links lol. But then when you just brush off the support refuting your false claim that its all spectulation. It sort of makes it less fun.
Don't assume I've read everything you have. I need links because you have posted so much garbage pseudo archeology that without a link I have no reason to trust your judgement on the topic.
Another unsupported claim.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes you are describing the process of empirical science. The question is what is it testing. Is it a particular kind of reality. The quantified aspect that only science can measure.
This thread is about what the physical remains of ancient civilizations tell us about the past, particularly the technological development of the ancient past. Of course we are using science.
Tell me how you can test this way for say phenomenal beliefs or experiences like love and beauty. Are these not also real. If someone has a persistent belief about something that they intuit is this not real. How do you explain belief in God. How do you test that God is not real.
You are fond of mentioning fallacies you perceive. Is this one a red herring, or a moving goalpost, or a strawman. It feels like you are arguing against positions no one took. No one is arguing about the non-existence of god(s) or the nature of love and beauty here.
You can't. So therefore science can only test a limited aspect of reality. The physical stuff, the naturalistic process that conform to certain measures ie particles, fields, chemicals, forces ect. It has nothing to say about conscious experiences or phenomenal beliefs. Trying to clobber belief or experience with science is like saying the soundwave vibrations of cat gut scraping on strings explain the experience Mozarts music. .
Not relevant to the thread. No one is claiming science is the tool for measuring these things.
Because its not just about belief in God but consciousness. Consciousness of God, gods and spirits. It was not the specific religion but that all were immersed in a spiritual context. Obviously the more we go back before rationalisations and all that people believed in more transcedent ideas.
Not relevant to the thread. No one is claiming science is the tool for measuring these things.
If you notice all the cultures have their spirituality that is intertwined with nature. Animals are spirits, crops are aligned to the sun and moon, stars are their guides. They were immersed in nature spirtually. Which is not necessarily a belief in the Christian God. But a natural disposition for humans even today. Except since Enlightenment we have rationalised ourselves away from this more transcedent worldview.

The bible mentions all know God by nature. So as we go back to a time that was closer to creation for all these cultures the more they were closer to God or the gods. The more spiritual.
Not relevant to the thread. No one is claiming science is the tool for measuring these things.
Of course a Christian will say the true source is the God of the bible. But for the purposes of culture and human nature we are natural born believers and the further we go back the more in tune we were with the spiritual world whicvh gave knowledge unlike modern knowledge. All the cultures tell this story and it seems to match out evolution and we hear them say that this knowledge is disappearing.
Your "born believer" claim is also not relevant to the thread.
So why do people deny the beliefs in the gods of the ancients. Their own stories of what they say is real events like what the bible says.
No one is doing that, but we are not talking about periods where there are written records that can tell us what they believed.
It is an idea proposed. A possible explanation to account for the observations. But this is all premised on a certain aspect that is being tested. The quantified stuff. Do you think fundemental reality is 'Matter'. That there is only a material reality. Many people believe in an immaterial reality.

Science cannot test this. So using science to refute it is impossible. When someone asks for evidence they are asking that an immaterial reality conform to a material reality and if it cannot. Then it is not real, is something the material reality conjures up. But nothing real or no real knowledge can be derived from the immaterial realm. The only reality is material or physical objective reality.
The nature of reality is not the subject of the thread.
 
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Hans Blaster

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OK, it seems something went wrong as it usually goes through to the page.

Come on keep up if you want to travel down the rabbit hole of "all possibilities" lol. Its fun. The vases are the vases. They come up as a necessary evil as part of investigating ancient advanced knowledge and tech.
The vases are but a fad among the pseudo-archeology grifters as have been a sequence of such fads that I could list, but I fear doing so would open new distractions.
But its only one of many. I am not sure you will keep up as I have already done this and have the research. But I will try to ensure the right links lol. But then when you just brush off the support refuting your false claim that its all spectulation. It sort of makes it less fun.
I would love to spend some time reading and discussing the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B sites of the upper Euphrates, but only if it was a straight discussion and not some vector for pseudo-archeology fantasies. The real archeology is quite fascinating.
Another unsupported claim.
Oh, no Steve. Anyone who reads your posts in this thread can see the volume of your posts from pseudo-archeology sites.
 
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sjastro

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Tell me how you can test this way for say phenomenal beliefs or experiences like love and beauty. Are these not also real. If someone has a persistent belief about something that they intuit is this not real. How do you explain belief in God. How do you test that God is not real.
The question that arises in this thread is which is far less deep, are you just plain stupid or a troll?
It was explained to you God is unfalsifiable in science and there is no test for God's existence or non existence, yet this is one of many examples where your mistakes have been pointed out and rather than acknowledging your errors or providing counterarguments you choose the argument by repetition fallacy.

You have effectively derailed your own thread as your comment is not even remotely a science topic.
 
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stevevw

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But what have been found here that points to ancient technology and lost knowledge?
Like GT they are show much more sophisticated knowledge and belief that attributed. There is still ongoing research and really this is just the tip of the iceberge as far as understanding their level of knowledge. But generally its acknowledged that this shows humans were much more organised and technically capable and had well developed social and cultural societies. Not too disssimilar to us.

More importantly altogether, all these sites plus all the sites aroynd the world show a prehistory world that had risen to a fairly high level of sophistication and then more or less disappeared in a fairly short time. Not all at once but certainly some cultures that peaked like the pre North & South American, Asians, Anatolians, Egyptian, ect. This seems to be the common thread. That megaliths show a pre history culture and the evidence is pushing this date back more and more.
Don't just say that it could have happened, show that it has happened.
I just did. If humans could built wooden shelters 480,000 years ago. Then the idea that they were hunter gatherer nomads and began building shelters as they settled. They lived in caves and first made simple shelters and gradually evolved to create more stronger and complex shelters as time progressed through the iron age some 4,000 years ago and into more moder tech.

Theres a 476,000 year gap between making wooden shelters and the iron age and beginning to make more advanced shelters. The brain was more or less the same. What did they do with their brain all that time. Surely if the same they would have progressed somehow. Stone seems the obvious. Maybe 400,000 years to play around with stones. Surely they must have come up with some good ideas lol.
Mega fauna? Humans lived through that.
Of course. It was only around 12,000 years ago. Theres different theories for the extenction of megafauna. Some say climate change and ice cap melts that flooded large areas. Some say humans hunted them out of extinction. Either way many humans would be affected in that there was not a lot of veegetation and then scarce game. Many would have uprooted and dispersed. Others just die out.
So let them excavate them.
They are and will in good time. Its amazing I think in some ways we are discovering more due to modern tech. What we thought was nothing is being revealed as more hidden discoveries. Even modern tech checking for Murons and electromagnetism in the pyramids and other sites. Or SARs finding hidden shafts and chambers.
References please, because the one find says the stones are from roman times.
Once again this is the orthodox view. The fact is there was a site there before the Romans built. The mega blocks are completely diferent signatures to the Roman work. If the Romans built this then why did they leave the others in the ground and why is there only three blocks on one side and the rest of the foundations have different smaller Roman blocks.

Romans never used such large blocks. The largest Roman crane could only lift 60 ton. These are 900 tons and had to be lifted into place. The Romans used drill lewis holes in the stones to be able to lift them. However, the Trilithon stones do not have any lewis holes. The Trilithon shows evidence of wind and sand erosion that is not seen in the Roman construction.

There is archeological evidence the site was occupied back to 9,000 BCE. You can see the different style and how old these mega blocks are compared to the later Roman work. There are strange scape marks on the Trilithon which match pther prehistory sites like Yangshan quarry in Japan.

The Romans detailed and documented everything they built and yet there is absolutely no record of them moving such mega blocks. This would be a massive achievement for the Romans. In fact the largest blocks ever moved by anyone. Yet not a word.

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Apart from Dr Kimura, most experts seems to think it's a natural formation.
Dr Kimura has done the most research and been down 150 times. He has found actual tool marks all over the monument. He has also found more sites and they connect.
Why would you try to much the waters with pictures from a different place?
Not sure what you mean by waters. The works shown from another site in Japan and Peru have similar signatures of the sharp platforms, steps ect. Which shows they were proficient in cutting such shapes.
What are you talking about here?
I see why you asked about the water. Yes I was showing examples on land of the same kind of signatures with sharp cuts and steps ect. The images are from Mount Nokogiri quarry in Japan. The same place as the underwater monument.

I asked a seperate question of what you thought cut the rocks in the Mount Nokogiri quarry. Were they small copper saws. Or did they pound them. How could they do this handing 200 feet above the ground.
You need to show that it has happened, not just say it could have happened. If you're using words like probably I would like to see the explicit reasoning preferably with numbers.
The article clearly states the spears are from 300 years ago.
Writing is the secret ingredient, together with professionalization is my guess for why things have happened the last 10000 years.
But the ancients has just a much a form of writing and communication as today. It was just in glyphs and symbols and signs and oral stories. We see very sophisticated paintings from 40,000 years ago. In fact research says around 50,000 years ago there was a technological and artistic and religious burst of expression all over the world.
Can you be more specific?
Most cultures speak of lost advanced knowledge. They say that the megalithes and other great works were made by people before them from the gods. Or made for the gods.
You are using empirical different than me then.
Thats kind of the point. That you can't use the science method to refute alternative knowledge like indigenous or ancient knowledge.
We have had interactions with indigenous people all the way into the 20th century, nowhere have they showed any fantastic abilities.
Because we were measuring their knowledge according to westernised science. They can't read or write, live primitively ect. But they had a deep knowledge of nature and spirituality that gave them knowledge beyond the science worldview.

What can we Learn about Nature Connection from Indigenous Australian Cultures?

Medicinal Secrets of the Amazon Rainforest
Modern medicine can certainly benefit from the vast knowledge of medicinal herbs and practices of Amazonian shamans.

Ancient Observatories-Timeless Knowledge
 

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Ophiolite

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Tell me how you can test this way for say phenomenal beliefs or experiences like love and beauty. Are these not also real. If someone has a persistent belief about something that they intuit is this not real. How do you explain belief in God. How do you test that God is not real
As is evidenced by your responses to me and your many responses to others, you have an uncanny knack of missing the point with a consistency that matches that of AV complaining about the demotion of Pluto to minor planet.

We can measure brain activity and bodily parameters of a person thinking about love, or admiring an object they consider beautiul. We can compare and contrast personal descriptions of their experiences. Yes, those experiences are real and so they can be investigated.

You seem to be confusing the reality of someone having a belief they hold to be true and the actual truth of that belief. Someone might say "I believe the Earth is flat." We do not dispute the reality of that belief. We do dispute the truth of it. You appear not to understand that distinction.

Do you think there is the remotest chance that you could address these two paragraphs, without going off on another string of largely irrelevant sideways excursions? It would be appreciated and would help me immensely in my efforts to follow forum guidlines of respecting fellow members.

And you might also provide peer-reviewed evidence, from a recognised journal, that justifies your outlandish claim in another post that our brains are much the same as our ancestors from 480,000 years ago! No word salad and obfuscation, just the link.
 
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sjastro

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Once again this is the orthodox view. The fact is there was a site there before the Romans built. The mega blocks are completely diferent signatures to the Roman work. If the Romans built this then why did they leave the others in the ground and why is there only three blocks on one side and the rest of the foundations have different smaller Roman blocks.

Romans never used such large blocks. The largest Roman crane could only lift 60 ton. These are 900 tons and had to be lifted into place. The Romans used drill lewis holes in the stones to be able to lift them. However, the Trilithon stones do not have any lewis holes. The Trilithon shows evidence of wind and sand erosion that is not seen in the Roman construction.

The Romans detailed and documented everything they built and yet there is absolutely no record of them moving such mega blocks. This would be a massive achievement for the Romans. In fact the largest blocks ever moved by anyone. Yet not a word.
So by your logic the Lateran obelisk which weighs 455 tons shouldn't be standing in Rome because Roman cranes could not carry more than 60 tons (true) and they documented everything they built (BS).
This latter point is the argument from ignorance fallacy given the Romans never documented how they erected obelisks which does not lead to the conclusion they were unable to move heavy blocks.

The presence of multiple obelisks in Rome is a clear repudiation of your nonsense the Romans would have had to possess this unknown technology in order to move heavy blocks.
 
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stevevw

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The question that arises in this thread is which is far less deep, are you just plain stupid or a troll?
I don't even know what you mean here. Far less deep. What does this mean.
It was explained to you God is unfalsifiable in science and there is no test for God's existence or non existence,
I have understood this well before you felt the need to assume I didn't and explain it to me lol. Really is this the level the stereotypes you are using lol. That just because someone has an alternative opinion that somehow they don't know what science is. Or that science cannot verify God. That Christians believe by faith is testament to this.

My point was that when you use science to refute belief or the alternative knowledge of ancients through their beliefs or spiritual understandings of the world, nature and relatity you are forcing a particular epistemics that you are claiming is the only way we can measure what is real. That only that which meets the criteria of material and empirical sciences counts as real.

I used the example of belief in God that gives real knowledge of the world that cannot be explained by science. I am using the same logic for the beliefs of ancients. That there was a deeper knowledge of the world and reality. Including nature this allowed them to understand things and use nature in different ways we don't understand and cannot verify with science because its experiencial. Like belief in God.
yet this is one of many examples where your mistakes have been pointed out and rather than acknowledging your errors or providing counterarguments you choose the argument by repetition fallacy.
Because I don't see it as an error in the first place. This is your interpretation lol. Your trying to foist this interpretation onto me and assuming what I mean. Assuming I have a certain mindset.

I actual;ly think its the other way around and that you are not getting what I am saying. Let me put it another way. Do you think if ancients or indigenous peoples said to you that they have ancient advanced knowledge, spiritual beliefs that brought knowledge of the world and reality. Would you believe them. There would be no way to disprove their belief by science.

I am saying that there are alternative ways of seeing reality. That your not recognising this by forcing others to conform to the scientific paradigm in the first place. You will not even consider or allow such possibilities because they don't fit your worldview beliefs.

Are you even aware of alternative ideas about reality and knowledge. Are you aware of the evidence behind this. Do you think ancients had any knowledge about nature and reality that was different to the science methods today.

Bringing in a modern example what about UAP's lol. Theres a whole bunch of people including high ranking military who believe in advanced tech and UAP's. Is this all rubbish as well. I don't necessarily believe such things. But are those who seriously believe whacko's.
You have effectively derailed your own thread as your comment is not even remotely a science topic.
No you have actually lol with these assumptions and misrepresentations and strawmen. A tell tale sign of anyone who is distorted is when they name call. When they get personal. It means theres more invested than just the matter at hand demands.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Like GT they are show much more sophisticated knowledge and belief that attributed. There is still ongoing research and really this is just the tip of the iceberge as far as understanding their level of knowledge. But generally its acknowledged that this shows humans were much more organised and technically capable and had well developed social and cultural societies. Not too disssimilar to us.
GT is studied by archeologists, they are publishing their findings in normal archeological journals. Those digs will enrich our understanding of their material culture.
More importantly altogether, all these sites plus all the sites aroynd the world show a prehistory world that had risen to a fairly high level of sophistication and then more or less disappeared in a fairly short time. Not all at once but certainly some cultures that peaked like the pre North & South American, Asians, Anatolians, Egyptian, ect. This seems to be the common thread. That megaliths show a pre history culture and the evidence is pushing this date back more and more.
Articles in journals!!
I just did. If humans could built wooden shelters 480,000 years ago. Then the idea that they were hunter gatherer nomads and began building shelters as they settled. They lived in caves and first made simple shelters and gradually evolved to create more stronger and complex shelters as time progressed through the iron age some 4,000 years ago and into more moder tech.

Theres a 476,000 year gap between making wooden shelters and the iron age and beginning to make more advanced shelters. The brain was more or less the same. What did they do with their brain all that time. Surely if the same they would have progressed somehow. Stone seems the obvious. Maybe 400,000 years to play around with stones. Surely they must have come up with some good ideas lol.
No, what you are putting forward is at best a possibility, now they have to find something that makes it into an actuality.
Of course. It was only around 12,000 years ago. Theres different theories for the extenction of megafauna. Some say climate change and ice cap melts that flooded large areas. Some say humans hunted them out of extinction. Either way many humans would be affected in that there was not a lot of veegetation and then scarce game. Many would have uprooted and dispersed. Others just die out.
Or humans were perhaps not those harshly affected? Do we find many human remains from the time period?
They are and will in good time. Its amazing I think in some ways we are discovering more due to modern tech. What we thought was nothing is being revealed as more hidden discoveries. Even modern tech checking for Murons and electromagnetism in the pyramids and other sites. Or SARs finding hidden shafts and chambers.
Muron? I'am familiar with electromagnetism, what about it? SAR, synthetic aperature radar?
Once again this is the orthodox view.
Yes, and it'll be the normal view until someone can show it to be false. In journal articles.
The fact is there was a site there before the Romans built. The mega blocks are completely diferent signatures to the Roman work. If the Romans built this then why did they leave the others in the ground and why is there only three blocks on one side and the rest of the foundations have different smaller Roman blocks.

Romans never used such large blocks. The largest Roman crane could only lift 60 ton. These are 900 tons and had to be lifted into place. The Romans used drill lewis holes in the stones to be able to lift them. However, the Trilithon stones do not have any lewis holes. The Trilithon shows evidence of wind and sand erosion that is not seen in the Roman construction.

There is archeological evidence the site was occupied back to 9,000 BCE. You can see the different style and how old these mega blocks are compared to the later Roman work. There are strange scape marks on the Trilithon which match pther prehistory sites like Yangshan quarry in Japan.
That it has been inhabited for a long time does not place roman era stone blocks in those times.
The Romans detailed and documented everything they built and yet there is absolutely no record of them moving such mega blocks. This would be a massive achievement for the Romans. In fact the largest blocks ever moved by anyone. Yet not a word.
So where are all the roman books about the big stones that you believe they moved?
View attachment 371875 View attachment 371876 View attachment 371877

Tell them to publish their findings, get the experts looking at it.
Dr Kimura has done the most research and been down 150 times. He has found actual tool marks all over the monument. He has also found more sites and they connect.
Many more experts believe them to be natural formations.
Not sure what you mean by waters. The works shown from another site in Japan and Peru have similar signatures of the sharp platforms, steps ect. Which shows they were proficient in cutting such shapes.
You haven't even showed that the under water features is anything but natural yet.
I see why you asked about the water. Yes I was showing examples on land of the same kind of signatures with sharp cuts and steps ect. The images are from Mount Nokogiri quarry in Japan. The same place as the underwater monument.
The Yonagumi monument is east of Taiwan. Mount Nokogiri is at the mouth of Tokyo bay. The quarry there is from the Edo period if wikipedia is to be trusted.
I asked a seperate question of what you thought cut the rocks in the Mount Nokogiri quarry. Were they small copper saws. Or did they pound them. How could they do this handing 200 feet above the ground.
If they are from the Edo period they had access to versions of steel tools.
The article clearly states the spears are from 300 years ago.
I was not talking about the spears. I was talking about San Agustín Archaeological Park - Wikipedia and your claim that it dates back to 8000 bce.
But the ancients has just a much a form of writing and communication as today. It was just in glyphs and symbols and signs and oral stories. We see very sophisticated paintings from 40,000 years ago. In fact research says around 50,000 years ago there was a technological and artistic and religious burst of expression all over the world.
Wasn't cuneiform the first written language dating back to 3000-3500 bce?
Most cultures speak of lost advanced knowledge. They say that the megalithes and other great works were made by people before them from the gods. Or made for the gods.

Thats kind of the point. That you can't use the science method to refute alternative knowledge like indigenous or ancient knowledge.
Why not? If it is demonstrable and you can form hypotheses (amenable to possible falsification) about it you can test it.
Because we were measuring their knowledge according to westernised science. They can't read or write, live primitively ect. But they had a deep knowledge of nature and spirituality that gave them knowledge beyond the science worldview.
Why, would a "science worldview" make it impossible to test someones deep knowledge about nature?
What can we Learn about Nature Connection from Indigenous Australian Cultures?
We do forest baths in Sweden too, no need for any lost knowledge.
Medicinal Secrets of the Amazon Rainforest
Modern medicine can certainly benefit from the vast knowledge of medicinal herbs and practices of Amazonian shamans.
That is not ancient technology or lost knowledge. It is the epitome of "we tried things until we found something that worked".
Most of the astronomical significance of the places in that pdf, is at best our best guess. What conclusions do you want me to draw from going through it?
 
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stevevw

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So by your logic the Lateran obelisk which weighs 455 tons shouldn't be standing in Rome because Roman cranes could not carry more than 60 tons (true) and they documented everything they built (BS).
This latter point is the argument from ignorance fallacy given the Romans never documented how they erected obelisks which does not lead to the conclusion they were unable to move heavy blocks.

The presence of multiple obelisks in Rome is a clear repudiation of your nonsense the Romans would have had to possess this unknown technology in order to move heavy blocks.
The arguement was based on way more than this. Your just choosing to highlight one and not the others. Altogether there is a strong case that the mega blocks are not Roman. Were there for a long time way before the Romans. I gave those reasons.

The fact is we don't fully know and you want them to be Roman. Your not open to the possibility that they are from an earlier time. This is the same for many sites. We don't know and the evidence points to them being older such as erosion, always at the bottom, megalithic, look really old, are consistent in signatures that are unlike the later works.

This is not a settled issue and like I said as with other examples timelinnes keep getting pushed back.
 
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BCP1928

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By archeologists acknowledging that sophisticated, social and religious cultures existed way earlier than we thought.
I thought we were talking about stoneworking technology, which does not necessarily correlate with cultural sophistication. In any case, "we" don't necessarily think that way, even though you are just finding out about it.
 
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sjastro

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I don't even know what you mean here. Far less deep. What does this mean.

I have understood this well before you felt the need to assume I didn't and explain it to me lol. Really is this the level the stereotypes you are using lol. That just because someone has an alternative opinion that somehow they don't know what science is. Or that science cannot verify God. That Christians believe by faith is testament to this.

My point was that when you use science to refute belief or the alternative knowledge of ancients through their beliefs or spiritual understandings of the world, nature and relatity you are forcing a particular epistemics that you are claiming is the only way we can measure what is real. That only that which meets the criteria of material and empirical sciences counts as real.

I used the example of belief in God that gives real knowledge of the world that cannot be explained by science. I am using the same logic for the beliefs of ancients. That there was a deeper knowledge of the world and reality. Including nature this allowed them to understand things and use nature in different ways we don't understand and cannot verify with science because its experiencial. Like belief in God.

Because I don't see it as an error in the first place. This is your interpretation lol. Your trying to foist this interpretation onto me and assuming what I mean. Assuming I have a certain mindset.

I actual;ly think its the other way around and that you are not getting what I am saying. Let me put it another way. Do you think if ancients or indigenous peoples said to you that they have ancient advanced knowledge, spiritual beliefs that brought knowledge of the world and reality. Would you believe them. There would be no way to disprove their belief by science.

I am saying that there are alternative ways of seeing reality. That your not recognising this by forcing others to conform to the scientific paradigm in the first place. You will not even consider or allow such possibilities because they don't fit your worldview beliefs.

Are you even aware of alternative ideas about reality and knowledge. Are you aware of the evidence behind this. Do you think ancients had any knowledge about nature and reality that was different to the science methods today.

Bringing in a modern example what about UAP's lol. Theres a whole bunch of people including high ranking military who believe in advanced tech and UAP's. Is this all rubbish as well. I don't necessarily believe such things. But are those who seriously believe whacko's.

No you have actually lol with these assumptions and misrepresentations and strawmen. A tell tale sign of anyone who is distorted is when they name call. When they get personal. It means theres more invested than just the matter at hand demands.
Stop making stupid ignorant comments on subjects you have zero understanding of such as science.

Science is meant to be falsifiable where it makes predictions which are either supported by experiment/observation or rejected.
According to science what are your predictions which can be tested, the answer is zero as you cannot even tell us what advanced technologies the ancients used. Archaeologists cannot test your nonsense when there is no prediction hence no evidence.

As a Christian who was also a forensic scientist in automotive engineering don't lecture me on the role of God in science.
As I have had to explain to many other ignorant people not only is God unfalsifiable but invoking God in explaining why a failure occurs in the field would have made my job a lot easier but doesn't provide failure mode analysis or coming up with countermeasures.
To highlight your ignorance further when a problem was complex I used model based realities which are not part of a physical reality but made predictions of failures in the real world which if confirmed led to an understanding of the failure mode and its solution.
So stop stereotyping scientists as having a single view on reality even though it doesn't include God.
 
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sjastro

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The arguement was based on way more than this. Your just choosing to highlight one and not the others. Altogether there is a strong case that the mega blocks are not Roman. Were there for a long time way before the Romans. I gave those reasons.

The fact is we don't fully know and you want them to be Roman. Your not open to the possibility that they are from an earlier time. This is the same for many sites. We don't know and the evidence points to them being older such as erosion, always at the bottom, megalithic, look really old, are consistent in signatures that are unlike the later works.

This is not a settled issue and like I said as with other examples timelinnes keep getting pushed back.
This is incoherent nonsense.
We know the obelisks were not Roman they were made in Egypt, they ended up in Rome because they were transported on ships by Romans.
We can also be very confident the obelisks were erected in Rome by Romans.

The major obelisks erected in Rome were between 230 - 455 tons which according to your nonsense is impossible.

Obelisk (Rome)Approximate weightOriginal erection: when & by whomErected in Rome / by whom
Lateran Obelisk (Lateran Obelisk)~ 455 tons originally (now ~330 tons) (PBS)Built by Thutmose III / finished by Thutmose IV at Karnak, c. 15th century BCE (PBS)Transported to Rome in AD 357 under Constantius II, erected in Piazza S. Giovanni in Laterano in 1588 by order of Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Vatican Obelisk (Vatican Obelisk)~ 331 tons (PBS)Originally erected circa 30–28 BC in Alexandria under Roman prefect Cornelius Gallus by order of Augustus. (Wikipedia)Brought to Rome by Caligula in AD 40, erected in Piazza San Pietro in 1586 under Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Flaminio Obelisk (Flaminio Obelisk)~ 235 tons (Obelisks)Erected in Heliopolis by Seti I and completed by Ramesses II (13th century BCE) (Jeff Bondono)Brought to Rome in 10 BC by Augustus and erected on the spina of the Circus Maximus; re-erected in Piazza del Popolo 1589 under Pope Sixtus V. (Wikipedia)
Solare / Montecitorio Obelisk (Obelisk of Montecitorio)~ 230 tons (some sources) (Ostia Antica)Originally erected by Psamtik II (595-589 BC) at Heliopolis. (Wikipedia)Brought to Rome in 10 BC by Augustus; erected in current site Piazza di Montecitorio during restoration in 1789-1792 under Pope Pius VI. (Jeff Bondono)

Using simple logic in lieu of science a prediction is there should have been no obelisks in Rome erected by the Romans hence your nonsense is shot to pieces.
So how did they do it?
 
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