How do we set aside the grace of God?

[Guojing]

I do believe that I have always stated that once we get to the point of eternal life we must do works to stay in the spirit to live physically. We also must obey the 2 commandments of:

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

I don't know how many times I posted the above. Maybe I wasn't too clear about what to do in the tribulation. When I say we must stand in Jesus, I meant we must always continue to believe in Him. That, to me, means we do not take the mark of the beast.

John 15:4 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. NASU

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NASU

Above are the 2 commandments we are to keep as Jesus stated them in the gospel of John.

Like I said, you are now saying that you actually believed that, for salvation to be maintained, you need works to show that you indeed have the faith.

But somehow you believed that had Noah or Abraham refused to do the works God commanded them, whether building the ark or physical circumcision, they still maintain their salvation.

Those 2 statements are contradictory. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[fli]

Like I said, you are now saying that you actually believed that, for salvation to be maintained, you need works to show that you indeed have the faith.

But somehow you believed that had Noah or Abraham refused to do the works God commanded them, whether building the ark or physical circumcision, they still maintain their salvation.

Those 2 statements are contradictory. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

When a person proves they have a spiritual mind.

Romans 8:3 He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NASU

People without a spiritual mind cannot please God.

John 10:4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 "A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." NASU

Only His sheep will follow His voice whe Jesus tells them to put the sins of the flesh to death. When a person prove they hear and will follow Jesus' voice they are then called a child of God. They now have to follow His voice to stay in the Spirit and continue to live physically. That means they have to do works to stay alive. The only work they must do to keep salvation is to obey the 2 commandments in 1 John.

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

 

[fli]

Abraham did not have to be circumcised to keep salvation. Once a person has reached the point God considers them His child, they need to do works to stay alive physically, not to keep salvation. God proves early in the sanctification process if you are His child or not. Abraham had proven he was God's child at least 13 years prior to God telling him to circumcise himself and his household. Abraham needed to obey and be circumcised to continue to live physically. Just like today for us. Romans 8:13-24 after we prove to God, by putting to death the sins of the flesh, we are a child of God. We do works to stay in the Spirit to stay alive physically. That is what James meant by "faith without works is dead" when he cited Abraham work of offering Issac. If Abraham had not done works after God imputed righteousness to him, he would have died physically and gone to heaven. In heaven Abraham's faith would be dead.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

To believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ is the one who keeps His commandments - those who abide in Him. Notice it is plural, not singular.

The same ones Jesus kept who is our example to follow.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Why Jesus asked

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ (believe in His name) and not do the things which I say?

Believing in Jesus who is God, is obeying Him, not disobeying.

People without a spiritual mind cannot please God.

True and Paul tells us what that looks like to not have a spiritual mind

Rom 8:7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Yet when it comes to keeping the commandments of God, most Christians say we do not need to or can edit or remove one or two of them, when we are told plainly not to as if God's own Testimony written by God Himself Exo 31:18 in the Most Holy of His Temple Rev11:19 Rev 15:5 , needs to be edited by a human. Psa 89:34 Deut4:2 Pro30:5-6 Mat5:18-19

 

[Guojing]

The only work they must do to keep salvation is to obey the 2 commandments in 1 John.

That is what you really meant when you said you believe salvation is by faith alone without works.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do believe that I have always stated that once we get to the point of eternal life we must do works to stay in the spirit to live physically. We also must obey the 2 commandments of:

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

I don't know how many times I posted the above. Maybe I wasn't too clear about what to do in the tribulation. When I say we must stand in Jesus, I meant we must always continue to believe in Him. That, to me, means we do not take the mark of the beast.

John 15:4 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. NASU

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NASU

Above are the 2 commandments we are to keep as Jesus stated them in the gospel of John.

What about the greatest commandments to love God with all our heart, mind and soul? Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these. Mark 12:29-31 What about all the other commandments Jesus spoke of and kept during His time on earth telling us not to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Mat19:17-19 etc Mat12:12 Mat4:4. I am not familiar with the verses that says one teaching of Jesus deletes another one.

Salvation is not by keeping any laws, God's laws are kept (His version) as a result of salvation, abiding in Him, not a means to it. However on the flip side, no one is saved in their sins Heb10:26-30 We need a conversion in Christ leaving our old sinful way behind through love and His power John 14:15-18, walking as He did, for our example. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1John2:6

 

[fli]

That is what you really meant when you said you believe salvation is by faith alone without works.

Yes, Mr. Goujing

That is exactly what I mean by we are saved by faith alone. All we need do to reach the point of God calling us His Child, is to keep believing in Jesus. Those with a spiritual mind will keep believing in Him when Jesus tells them to put to death the sins of the world and to quit loving worldly things. They prove they have a spiritual mind by following His convictions.

John 10:4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. NASU

There it is. When Jesus tells those who believe in Him, to do such and such, only His sheep will follow. If you are not His sheep you might hear His voice but will not follow what it tells you to do.

Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NASU

If you are putting to death sins of the flesh, by the Spirit, then you are a son of God. All we need do now is keep believing in Jesus and obeying Jesus to stay in the Spirit to live physically.

Does that mean because we do not have to keep the law to be righteous that we are to not obey the law? No! Once again Jesus will tell us to keep the OT law to act like His children. If we do not act like His child, we are not good witnesses, and He will kill us physically. We keep the OT law out of love and to keep living physically: not because we have to keep it to be saved.

Salvation is not by keeping any laws, God's laws are kept (His version) as a result of salvation, abiding in Him, not a means to it. However on the flip side, no one is saved in their sins Heb10:26-30 We need a conversion in Christ leaving our old sinful way behind through love and His power John 14:15-18, walking as He did, for our example. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1John2:6

Mr. SabbathBlessings

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

Neither one of these commandments were in the OT law. They are in the gospel of John as he recorded Jesus' words. You will find these in John 15: 6-7 and John 13:34-35. In verse 24, after John wrote the 2 commandments (of His) we are to keep, he stated that by keeping, His commandments, we abide in Him. In John15: 6 if we do not abide in Him, we are thrown away and burned. We abide in Him as long as we believe in Him. By John 3:18, as long as we believe in Him, we are not condemned. If God does not condemn us, it means we are not in sin.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, NASU

As long as we abide in Jesus, by keeping believing in Him (by 1John3: 24), we cannot sin. Therefore, as long as we keep believing in Him, we will not sin.

1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. NASU

In Jesus is no sin. Is that because everyone in him is sinless?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. NASU

No! John says if we say we have no sin, we are liars. So, if we sin while in Him, how can there be no sin in Him.

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." NASU

Verse 8 blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Notice it states that the man does sin. However, the Lord does not take that sin into account. That means that as long as the man is in Jesus, he is sinless. God does not impute any sin to those who are in Jesus. If God does not impute sin to anyone in Jesus, there is no sin in Jesus. We are right back to 1John 3:5 there is no sin in Jesus because if God says you are not in sin, no other opinion means anything. Only God can determine sin, and He says in Jesus there is no sin. Not because the person in Jesus does not sin, but because God does not put it to their account. John 3:18 As long as we believe in Jesus we are not condemned.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

If we keep believing in Him God does not condemnation us, that means we are not in sin. Notice the second part if people do not believe in Him they are condemned, not because of their sin, but by not believing in Him. Therefore, to keep sinning after believing in Jesus is to quit believing in Him.

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; NASU

We have the righteousness of Jesus through our faith. Anyone who has faith in Jesus has His righteousness. If we have the righteousness of Jesus we are obliged to walk as He did. If we don't walk as He did Jesus will chastise us.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NASU

We cannot get any righteousness by working the law. If we do not act like a Child of God Jesus will deal with us by chastising us. To stay in the spirit, we will act like His child, by obeying to law, to continue living physically.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Mr. SabbathBlessings

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

Neither one of these commandments were in the OT law. They are in the gospel of John as he recorded Jesus' words. You will find these in John 15: 6-7 and John 13:34-35. In verse 24, after John wrote the 2 commandments (of His) we are to keep, he stated that by keeping, His commandments, we abide in Him. In John15: 6 if we do not abide in Him, we are thrown away and burned. We abide in Him as long as we believe in Him. By John 3:18, as long as we believe in Him, we are not condemned. If God does not condemn us, it means we are not in sin.

The NT does not delete the Old Testament, The God of the OT is the same God of the New Testament. God transferred His laws into the NC they are just written on a better surface, from tables of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10. Jesus who is God quoted from the OT to say the greatest commandments, the summary, which He said no other commandments are greater Mark 12:30-31 Jesus quoting from the OT said that man should live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat4:4 so its not just the one or two verses we like. It’s a sin to break any of God commandments in the OT just like it is in the NT 1John3:4James 2:10-12 why Jesus taught not to break the least of these commandments quoting from the OT and showing how He came to magnify His laws Isa 42:21 not destroy as many teach, the opposite of what Jesus said, plainly. Mat5:17-30

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NASU

The word "end" in the original Greek means

τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness, not that the law ended as Jesus stated so clearly and we see all the way until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ Rev22:14-15

We cannot get any righteousness by working the law. If we do not act like a Child of God Jesus will deal with us by chastising us. To stay in the spirit, we will act like His child, by obeying to law, to continue living physically.

Our righteousness comes from God, but do you really believe a child of God is going to break God’s commandments and worship other gods, or vain His holy name and break what has been repeated over and over again not to break if we love Him, because its not an example of being a child of God, its an example of a lost child Rom8:7-8 sadly one in rebellion, unbelief and sin Heb3:7-19. If we love God, why would we not do what He asks? Not just some things, but believe and live by every word Mat4:4

 

[Guojing]

Does that mean because we do not have to keep the law to be righteous that we are to not obey the law? No! Once again Jesus will tell us to keep the OT law to act like His children. If we do not act like His child, we are not good witnesses, and He will kill us physically. We keep the OT law out of love and to keep living physically: not because we have to keep it to be saved.

Wow, God will kill us physically if we don't do the works, but yet we are saved?

Does that happen if a believer takes the mark of the beast?

 

[fli]

Wow, God will kill us physically if we don't do the works, but yet we are saved?

Yes, we are saved, but if we do not stay in the Spirit God will kill us physically. When He kills us our physical man the spirit man will go to heaven. Did God promise you a long physical life on earth or an eternal spiritual life in Heaven?

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. NASU

Jesus said the same thing in Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 so it should not be a surprise to anyone. If we are do not put our sins to death by the Spirit for Jesus' sake, we are put to death, so His church will be a good witness for Him. By losing our life for His sake, we will get eternal life.

Does that happen if a believer takes the mark of the beast?

No! If a believer takes the mark of the beast, they are saying that they will not give up their life for Jesus' sake. They lose salvation. They will eventually die physically in the tribulation, and the spirit man will go to hell with the beast.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus speaks of the Second Death for the sinners- they will not be in heaven

Only those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death

Rev 2:11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

They are the commandment breakers, who harden their hearts and did not seek Jesus in His help forsaking their sins, they loved their sins more than their love for Jesus to seek His help in overcoming. John 3:19-21 John14:15-18 Rev14:12

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, we are saved, but if we do not stay in the Spirit God will kill us physically. When He kills us our physical man the spirit man will go to heaven. Did God promise you a long physical life on earth or an eternal spiritual life in Heaven?

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. NASU

Jesus said the same thing in Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 so it should not be a surprise to anyone. If we are do not put our sins to death by the Spirit for Jesus' sake, we are put to death, so His church will be a good witness for Him. By losing our life for His sake, we will get eternal life.

No! If a believer takes the mark of the beast, they are saying that they will not give up their life for Jesus' sake. They lose salvation. They will eventually die physically in the tribulation, and the spirit man will go to hell with the beast.

So some works are more devastating than others.

Alright then, I understand better what you mean when you say "salvation is by faith alone without works".

You must have read Grace Evangelical Society in forming doctrines like that.

 

[fli]

So some works are more devastating than others.

Alright then, I understand better what you mean when you say "salvation is by faith alone without works".

You must have read Grace Evangelical Society in forming doctrines like that.

My doctrine comes from scripture and what God shows me.
If you read Romans 8, it explains about staying in the Spirit fulfills the law of sin and death. If one doesn't stay in the Spirit the law of sin and death is not fulfilled, and death is the result. That is God's doctrine.