Persons in creation pre-existing conception?

[GoldenKingGaze]

From Scripture, philosophy and experiences like those of near death survivors, do you think we existed before our conceptions in our mother's, or is it possible?

What were we, where did we come from?

 

[com7fy8]

God could have done that. But nowhere does the Bible say He did . . . that I know of.

However, God did know us before He made each of us. And before the creation of the universe, He already knew who will be conformed to the image of Jesus >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I think that when someone is born in sin, a demon can be assigned to the sinner and the devil can affect the person's personality. I mean, the personality of the demon can more or less spread to the human. And then, of course, after the human dies the evil spirit can get assigned to a later human and affect that later human's personality so it can seem as though the former dead human has come back; but the personality of the later human has come from the evil spirit who gave that same personality to an earlier person. And, likewise, the evil spirit who affected a dead worldly person can still be around and seem like it is the "ghost" of the dead human; because it has the selfish personality which it shared with the dead human.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

We who have been saved are in spiritual union with Jesus Himself in us now affecting our personality. We have been turned "from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18.

But Jesus did exist before He was in the womb of Mary. Jesus is God's own Son who has been with the Father "before the world was" >

"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'" (John 17:5)

And God is so pleased with His Son, that He determined to have many children who are like Jesus. He did not already have us like Jesus, back then, I would say, in any case. But in the future He will have changed us to be and to love like Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

God could have done that. But nowhere does the Bible say He did . . . that I know of.
However, God did know us before He made each of us. And before the creation of the universe, He already knew who will be conformed to the image of Jesus >
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)
I think that when someone is born in sin, a demon can be assigned to the sinner and the devil can affect the person's personality.

Nor does the Bible say that demons are assigned to sinners. . .

But the Bible does say that we are by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), born with the sin of Adam charged/imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

 

[eleos1954]

From Scripture, philosophy and experiences like those of near death survivors, do you think we existed before our conceptions in our mother's, or is it possible?

What were we, where did we come from?

People who have "near death" experiences ... need to understand these experiences happen when the human body and brain are under severe distress ... not uncommon to have hallucinations.

As far as "pre-existence" ... I do know the Mormon religion believes we were "spirit children" before becoming human (the bible does not support this)

Seeds - each the male and female have "seeds" but it takes the two seeds to allow for a new human life to occur (procreation). So our "pre-existence) is as seeds.

The understanding from verses like Jeremiah 1:5 is not that humans pre-existed as conscious beings in heaven, but that they were known in the mind of God before they were formed ... He knew what the seeds would produce.

According to Genesis ... God formed man out of the dust of the earth and breathed life into him.
Genesis 2:7
AMPC
Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.

Then he created woman and bestowed the ability for them to procreate and this was the beginning of the human race.

When we die we return to this state (dust) ... until the Lord returns and resurrection occurs.
Genesis 3:19
AMPC
In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I'd say, the Demons have no access to us until we are in this world. They can follow family lines. But they have no part in creation.

 

[Niels]

The way I see it, our existence is an idea in God's mind. Along with every plant, animal, planet, star, etc. That's what we are before, during, and after this lifetime. Although we are individual people, we are nevertheless ideas in the mind of God.

 

[com7fy8]

Nor does the Bible say that demons are assigned to sinners. . .

But the Bible does say that we are by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), born with the sin of Adam charged/imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

And it does say there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2)

So, it is not only assigned, but working within. This is not only imputed on some record but actually working in each disobedient person.

 

[Clare73]

And it does say there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2)

So, it is not only assigned, but working within. This is not only imputed on some record but actually working in each disobedient person.

Eph 2:2 refers to the influence over humanity through the realm of demonic power (the ruler of the kingdom of the air) that influences the disobedient.

 

[com7fy8]

Eph 2:2 refers to the influence over humanity through the realm of demonic power (the ruler of the kingdom of the air) that influences the disobedient.

You can work in a person to influence the person.

 

[com7fy8]

But the Bible does say that we are by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), born with the sin of Adam charged/imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

Well . . . how did the sin move from Adam to other humans? I consider "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" spread.

I would say that because Adam and Eve were God's "very good" creation, they good of their own selves would not have started what is evil. It took work.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Well . . . how did the sin move from Adam to other humans? I consider "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" spread.

I would say that because Adam and Eve were God's "very good" creation, they good of their own selves would not have started what is evil. It took work.

We inherit sin from our parents, in the flesh and blood. From a newer view, it is in our grey matter. Sinful spirits work using that. That is why Catholics believe Mary was conceived without sin passed down from the ancestors, for Jesus.

Before conception we have no sin, it comes from the flesh we grow in.

 

[Clare73]

Well . . . how did the sin move from Adam to other humans?

It was simply charged/accounted/imputed by God to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17), making them guilty of Adam's sin, which charging/accounting/imputing of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the charging/accounting/imputing of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19), making them righteous with the righteousness of Christ.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Romans 7:17-23
Sin is in our bodies, spirits in our bodies make it worse.

 

[stevevw]

I think there is an aspect of humans, of each and every individual that we would call 'self. the unique self or maybe its self awareness. But this aspect for which we know and can also experience being a part of something beyond is a real thing. Some call it the soul or the ;Life Force' or intuition or just plain consciousness.

But its a real aspect of reality and even science now recognises that what they call the 'subjective' or the 'subject' as opposed to the objective reality may have some influence on reality. Or be the real fundemental reality that creates what we experience with our senses.

The ancient Sharmans and Buddhist knew it and so did most cultures throughout time. We are natural born believers in something beyond because we know there is something beyond that we cannexplain with science or materialism.

The bible says that we only see a glimpse of this realm. We know Gods invisible power from what He created. This speaks to us though we can deny it with rational explanations.

I don't think you have to be near death to experience consciousness beyond the brain. We sort of sense it everyday. But as Christians the spirit gives revelations and visions of a reality that is beyond what we see.

What I find interesting is that the overall sense from NDE is an experience of realness and yet not being able to explain this in normal terms. Like your totally convinced its real, realer than everyday reality. As though the experiencer is aware that this is not a dream or imagination. Which is usually confusing and negative and easily forgotton.

I think this is merely a supercharged version of what we all experience everyday with our 6th sense so to speak. Its just that modern thinking and all the rationalisations that try to explain this away have filled peoples heads and this sort of blocks the signal. I think in ancient times when there was no modern ideas people were more conscious of this aspect of reality.

In some ways you could say its the spiritual as opposed to the material world. If we are spiritual beings then we should expect that we can get in touch or sense this aspect to varying degrees. It does not surprise that at crucial times such as NDE that this aspect may become more magnified as people drift between these aspects.

But even scientific tests on consciousness are revealing some aspect of human minds that may influence this world. It makes sense in that our minds are really where everything comes from. Fundementally all is mind and consciousness.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It was simply charged/accounted/imputed by God to all those of Adam, making them guilty of Adam's sin, which charging/accounting/imputing of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the charging/accounting/imputing of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19), making them righteous with the righteousness of Christ.

Charging or imputing, maybe not the best choice of words. Infusion or impartation may be better. When our bodies and souls form, we need to think of where they come from, what comes from our parents. There is the DNA for the body, relying on our mothers' uterus and blood. Where does the soul come from? Our first thoughts, feelings, dreams?

 

[Clare73]

Charging or imputing, maybe not the best choice of words.

I'm using the word (charge/account/impute to) Scripture uses (Heb: chasab, Ge 15:6; Gr: logizomai, Ro 4:3) in this regard in the case of Abraham.

 

[com7fy8]

We inherit sin from our parents, in the flesh and blood. From a newer view, it is in our grey matter. Sinful spirits work using that. That is why Catholics believe Mary was conceived without sin passed down from the ancestors, for Jesus.

In the Bible, the word "flesh" is used for the human body and for the sinful nature. But ones interpret this to mean the physical flesh is the problem. My opinion is there is our spiritual level of "flesh". It means whatever in us is capable of sinning, meaning at our spiritual level. But yes we have ones who blame the physical flesh for our sin problems

But it is not our physical DNA that passes on the spiritual problem of sin, I offer. But there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2. My opinion is that parents with this disobedient spirit can infect their conceived children, right from conception. And this is why children very young already can be so about their own selves and able to lie and scream for their own way, versus having a natural tendency to share and care in love as family.

Below, I have quoted how Clare does not at all agree with this.

It seems we have three theories for how sin moves along through the family line. You seem to say through the physical flesh, which I do not blame. And I say the infection of Satan's spirit passes on right with conception. And Clare seems to be saying it is "imputed", which can mean we are born with the record.

Before conception we have no sin, it comes from the flesh we grow in.

Blaming the flesh?? lolololololololol "The flesh did it." It can feel like the flesh is getting us to sin, in my experience; however, I would say the real cause is deeper.

It was simply charged/accounted/imputed by God to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17), making them guilty of Adam's sin, which charging/accounting/imputing of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the charging/accounting/imputing of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19), making them righteous with the righteousness of Christ.

Well, charging me with what I am not guilty of doing, myself . . . might not be . . . just. But if Satan's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) passes on to me and infects me with selfishness . . . now it is my selfishness, my problem, and I am guilty.

 

[Clare73]

In the Bible, the word "flesh" is used for the human body and for the sinful nature. But ones interpret this to mean the physical flesh is the problem. My opinion is there is our spiritual level of "flesh". It means whatever in us is capable of sinning, meaning at our spiritual level. But yes we have ones who blame the physical flesh for our sin problems
But it is not our physical DNA that passes on the spiritual problem of sin, I offer. But there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2. My opinion is that parents with this disobedient spirit can infect their conceived children, right from conception. And this is why children very young already can be so about their own selves and able to lie and scream for their own way, versus having a natural tendency to share and care in love as family.
Below, I have quoted how Clare does not at all agree with this.

It seems we have three theories for how sin moves along through the family line. You seem to say through the physical flesh, which I do not blame. And I say the infection of Satan's spirit passes on right with conception. And Clare seems to be saying it is "imputed", which can mean we are born with the record.
Blaming the flesh?? lolololololololol "The flesh did it." It can feel like the flesh is getting us to sin, in my experience; however, I would say the real cause is deeper.
Well, charging me with what I am not guilty of doing, myself . . . might not be . . . just.

Is "charging" you with Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 18-19) just?

But if Satan's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) passes on to me and infects me with selfishness . . . now it is my selfishness, my problem, and I am guilty.

All those of Adam are charged (imputed) with Adam's guilt (Ro 5:14, 17,), just as all those of Christ are "charged" (imputed) with Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 18-19).

 

[com7fy8]

Is "charging" you with Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 18-19) just?

It is undeserved. But if God chooses to do this, yes He is just to do this.

And He has His purpose, to then change us into the image of Jesus . . . so that we no longer exist as sinful people, but we become loving and kind in submission to God. So, there is justice in "charging" us with Christ's righteousness, since God is then going to "execute" the old me and change me into how Jesus is.

So, I see, then, how God can impute sin to a conceived person, knowing how that unborn will later become and live in sin.

But then the best justice is to slay that old selfish person in me, by making me alive in God's love, instead.

 

[Clare73]

It is undeserved. But if God chooses to do this, yes He is just to do this.
And He has His purpose, to then change us into the image of Jesus . . . so that we no longer exist as sinful people, but we become loving and kind in submission to God. So, there is justice in "charging" us with Christ's righteousness, since God is then going to "execute" the old me and change me into how Jesus is.
So, I see, then, how God can impute sin to a conceived person, knowing how that unborn will later become and live in sin.
But then the best justice is to slay that old selfish person in me, by making me alive in God's love, instead.

However, justice is to give everyone what they have earned, what they are due/owed.

What have sinners earned, what are they owed? . . .condemnation, for which there is only one remedy (Jn 3:18).