The law, the commandments, and Christians.

[Abraham1st]

1. God's Word is not an "offense to the Gospel" that God has given
2. God is the author of "The Commandments of God"
3. God writes His Commandments on the heart under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8
4. "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
5. ":the saints Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
6. God's commandments include the Ten having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-3

sorry i have no time for dispute, have a nice day. ( but if you do have time, do see my thread i just posted now for all of this and much much more.)

 

[linux.poet]

Ezek 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezek 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It strikes me as the epitome of arrogance to place oneself on the level of Ezekiel and Paul. Who made one of us the leader of the church with direct revelation from God? Is the canon of the Bible not closed? Are we not all on equal footing before the Lord?

The penalty you describe is the burden of people who were getting direct revelation from God when the Scriptures were still being written. If they did not tell their revelation, what they knew, and watched others stumble and fall, there was no other way for those falling to know what God said. Now, all of us know the full counsel of God through His Word, and none of us are burdened with direct revelation from God on behalf of others that another cannot possibly know without us telling them. We all have the Word and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Far be it from me to elevate my flawed and flimsy modern opinion and place it on the level of direct revelation from God.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sometimes we need to be patient, to wait for the sands of time to turn so that others may see and experience our perspective, rather than throwing the truth they will not accept in their faces until they submit.

There are many wise things in your post, but this one in particular may be the wisest thing I've read in any Christian forum.

 

[HIM]

It strikes me as the epitome of arrogance to place oneself on the level of Ezekiel and Paul.

There is no I in Christ.
None the less Paul said to the Church.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[HIM]

That v12 you used

Why take it out of context? There is only one church, one faith. One Olive Tree per chapter 11.
What you are also missing is the New Covenant in chapter 10 verses 6-8.

 

[Guojing]

Why take it out of context? There is only one church, one faith. One Olive Tree per chapter 11.
What you are also missing is the New Covenant in chapter 10 verses 6-8.

You are correct, Israel today has fallen so yes, the only church TODAY is the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11).

That does not mean the Body of Christ is Israel, and can claim the promises originally given to the latter (Romans 11:25-29).

 

[HIM]

You are correct, Israel today has fallen so yes, the only church TODAY is the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11).

That does not mean the Body of Christ is Israel, and can claim the promises originally given to the latter (Romans 11:25-29).

You are mistaken. The New Covenant is through Christ. Romans 10:6-8 says The Word is in our heart and in our mouth through Christ, that is the word of faith in which we preach. And The faith the just live by and establishes the Law. This heart through the word in it believes unto righteousness as 10:10 states in Romans. Romans 10:6-8 is the Covenant spoken to Israel in Deut 29:1, 30:10-14.

The Covenant in Deut 29:1, 30:10-14 and Rom 10:6-8 is the same covenant that is being spoken in Jeremiah 31:31, just in different words.
How do we know?

Because in the giving of the Covenant Deut 30:10-14 it states the word that is in our heart and mouths is the Commandments AND the Statutes contained in the Book of the Law. They are placed there so that we do them as verse 30:14 states. This the heart that believes unto righteousness.


Romans 6-8 talk about us being reborn through Christ death and resurrection and living through His Spirit to mortify the deeds of the Body. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This Covenant was spoke of in Isaiah 59 and Ezek 36:26,27 and is of the same Covenant spoken of in Jer31:31 and Deut 29:1,30:10-14. The Spirit, the word, the Law in our hearts all have the same goal. They are there that we do as they led. that we walk accordingly. That we believe unto righteousness. These covenants are one and are for all. For we are one in Christ. And there is neither Jew nor Gentile. And all heirs according to the promises.

Isa 59:21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

 

[Guojing]

You are mistaken. The New Covenant is through Christ. Romans 10:6-8 says The Word is in our heart and in our mouth through Christ, that is the word of faith in which we preach. And The faith the just live by and establishes the Law. This heart through the word in it believes unto righteousness as 10:10 states in Romans. Romans 10:6-8 is the Covenant spoken to Israel in Deut 29:1, 30:10-14.

The Covenant in Deut 29:1, 30:10-14 is the same covenant that is being spoken in Jeremiah 31:31, just in different words.
How do we know?

Because in the giving of the Covenant Deut 30:10-14 it states the word that is in our heart and mouths is the Commandments AND the Statutes contained in the Book of the Law. They are placed there so that we do them as verse 30:14 states. This the heart that believes unto righteousness.

Romans 6-8 talk about us being reborn through Christ death and resurrection and living through His Spirit to mortify the deeds of the Body. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This Covenant was spoke of in Isaiah 59 and Ezek 36:26,27 and is of the same Covenant spoken of in Jer31:31 and Deut 29:1,30:10-14. The Spirit, the word, the Law in our hearts all have the same goal. That are there that we do as they led. that we walk accordingly. That we believe unto righteousness. These covenants are one and are for all. For we are one in Christ. And there is neither Jew nor Gentile. And all heirs according to the promises.

Isa 59:21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

All the passages, other than Romans 6-8, you used here refer to true Israel.

 

[HIM]

All the passages, other than Romans 6-8, you used here refer to true Israel.

That does not answer the points shared. I will not continue unless you do. Take care.

 

[Guojing]

That does not answer the points shared. I will not continue unless you do. Take care.

So its your job to establish that, in Romans 6-8, Paul calls us Israel or say we can now claim their promises, their covenants, noting that Paul was explicit in Romans 9:4 that the covenants and promises belong to Israel.

Otherwise, you are claiming I am mistaken but you are not providing any explanation.

 

[HIM]

So its your job to establish that, in Romans 6-8, Paul calls us Israel or say we can now claim their promises, their covenants, noting that Paul was explicit in Romans 9:4 that the covenants and promises belong to Israel.

Otherwise, you are claiming I am mistaken but you are not providing any explanation.

That was addressed in the post you responded to quoted below for your convenience. Please read the post and the Scripture cited. Romans 10:6-8 paraphrases Deut 30:10-14. And Deut 30:10-14 is stated as a New Covenant in Deut 29:1 to Israel.

The New Covenant is through Christ. Romans 10:6-8 says The Word is in our heart and in our mouth through Christ, that is the word of faith in which we preach. And The faith the just live by and establishes the Law. This heart through the word in it believes unto righteousness as 10:10 states in Romans. Romans 10:6-8 is the Covenant spoken to Israel in Deut 29:1, 30:10-14.

Got to go get ready for work. Take care

 

[Guojing]

That was addressed in the post you responded to quoted below for your convenience. Please read the post and the Scripture cited. Romans 10:6-8 paraphrases Deut 30:10-14. And Deut 30:10-14 is stated as a New Covenant in Deut 29:1 to Israel.

But Romans 10 is about Israel, so still not about us gentiles in the Body of Christ.

If you don't believe me, you can start from Romans 10:1, who is Paul addressing?

 

[Abraham1st]

Because to enter the promised kingdom for Israel, obeying the Law was required.

When God commanded obedience of the Law of Moses, when you obey what he commanded, you show that you have faith.

It is that faith that saves you, in the end.

Just a little background first, I am not with the churches of this whole world, and never was, I do not agree to what anyone says of their own opinion, and that way it may be easier to trace whether you said all correctly, that obedience to the law of Moses showed faith for Israel, or f it must be something other than what you concluded. ( it wont be offensive, it has to be what is concluded by those of Israel in the tesstimonies of the Lord.)


How did entrance into the promised kingdom of Israel occur, was it how God had driven out the heathen with His hand, afflicted those people and cast them out, that it was not by Israels own sword, or own arm, that saved them, but Gods right hand, and His arm, and the light of His countenance as He had a FAVOUR unto them. (To CONFIRM/FULFIL THE PROMISES made unto the fathers. (Romans 15:8-12. Psalm 18:43-50.)

That FAVOUR unto Israel must be important, as it is the very reason how entrance into the kingdom of Israel was achieved.

Reading in the same chapter of Psalm 44, (if that is OK ass this is your own statements/questioning we are tracing.) we are reminded of the scripture as in Romans 8:36, which is here in Psalm 44:22, and the context is of the affliction then on Israel, their soul bowed down, and the prayer ( of David) for God to arise for Israels help, to redeem Israel for the Lords mercies sake. (the same as how they entered into the kingdom of Israel/by the Lords Favour.)



Psalm 44:2 How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and forgettest our affliction and our oppression?
25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.
26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.


SING unto the Lord, all His saints, HIs anger endures but for a moment, IN HIS FAVOUR IS LIFE, by the Lors Favour David prays his mountain will stand strong. ( I SHALL NEVER BE MOVED.) the Lord had hidden His face and David (as seen, with all of Israel) was troubled.

David gives supplication that there is no profit for him to remain dead in the grave, then there is no praise, for the Lord to hear and to have mercy upon David, (and Israel.) and that the Lord has turned his mourning into dancing, to the end that he may SING PRAISES unto God, to give thanks unto the Lord his God for ever.




Psalm 30:4 Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
7 Lord, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.
8 I cried to thee, O Lord; and unto the Lord I made supplication.
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10 Hear, O Lord, and have mercy upon me: Lord, be thou my helper.
11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O Lord my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.




The prayer again is will the Lord cast off for ever, will He be Favourable no more ? Is His mercy gone for ever, HIs promise to fail for evermore ? Has God forgotten to be gracious, has He in His anger (against Israel.) shut up HIs tender mercies.

David meditates on the work and doing of the Lord, HIs way is in the sanctuary, that He is the God who does wonders, who DECLARED HIs strength among the people. (of Israel.) and has redeemed HIs people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph.




Psalm 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

Psalm 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
14 Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.



Notice it is written for HIs sake we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter, for HIs sake we are killed all the day long. If the Gentiles receive the same affliction, it may not be to cast the heathen out of the land of Israel any more, but it my be the affliction that came onto the people of Israel, as God delivered up His Son for us all, that was what was declared in the gospel, to the world, it is God that justifies, ( THROUGH FAITH, THROUGH FAVOUR, THROUGH MERCIES, THROUGH HIS OWN RIGHT ARM/THROUGH CHRIST/THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST, AND OF NO OTHER CRUCIFIED FOR US.) We CONQUER through HIM THAT LOVED US. (GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.)



John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?




Remember this is not offence, you can take it or leave it, I am not affiliated with any Christian denomination, or even any person, it is only as what is testified TO THIS WORLD.

Apostle Paul reiterates how Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (of Israel.) to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God FOR HIS MERCIES.

Of the SINGING unto the Lord's name, confess to Him among the Gentiles. (Heathen.)

Rejoice you Gentiles, (REJOICE OH YOU NATIONS.) WITH HIS PEOPLE.

Praise the Lord ALL YOU GENTILES, and LAUD Him, ALL YOU PEOPLE.

A root of Jesse, He that shall RISE to REIGN over the Gentiles, in Him shall the Gentiles trust.




Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

2 Samuel 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall STAND for AN ENSIGN OF THE PEOPLE; to it shall THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious.

Psalm 18:43 Thou hast DELIVERED ME FROM THE STRIVINGS OF THE PEOPLE; and thou hast MADE ME THE HEAD OF THE HEATHE: a people whom I have not known SHALL SERVE ME.
44 As soon AS SOON AS THEY HEAR OF ME, they SHALL OBEY ME: the strangers shall SUBMIT THEMSELVES UNTO ME.

Psalm 18:47 It is God that AVENGETH ME, and SUBDUETH THE PEOPLE UNDER ME.
48 He DELIVERETH ME FROM MINE ENEMIES: yea, thou LIFTEST ME UP ABOVE those that rise up against me: thou HAST DELIVERED ME from the violent man.
49 THEREFORE WILL I GIVE THAKS UNTO THEE, O Lord, AMONG THE HEATHEN, and SING PRAISES UNTO THY NAME.
50 GREAT DELIVERANCE GIVETH HE TO HIS KING; and sheweth MDRCY TO HIS ANNOINTED, TO DAVID, and TO HIS SEED FOR EVERMORE.




Finally, for now, look at Psalm 106 for a moment, of the keeping of judgment and doing righteousness at all times to be blessed.

The fathers of the children of Israel, who had the promises given to the fathers, confirmed by Jesus Christ ministering unto them, never understood the Lords wonders in Egypt, and did not remember the multitude of HIs mercies, provoking the Lord at the red sea, NEVERTHELESS, he saved them FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE, that He might make HIs power to be known.

The people of Israel believed the Lord Gods words; they sang his praise, but they soon forgot his works; and didn't wait for HIs counsel, they listed in the wilderness, tempting God, God sent leanness into their soul

God spoke about destroying the children of Israel in entirety, Moses Gods chosen stood in the breach to turn away the wrath of the Lord, the people of Israel DESPISED the PLEASANT LAND, they BELIEVED NOT HIS WORD, murmured and did not listen to the voice of the Lord.




Psalm 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Psalm 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

Psalm 106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
13 They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel:
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Psalm 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:
25 But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord.





Remember also this is only in answer to your words how the people of Israel entered the kingdom of Israel by obedience, of the commandments, of faith.

Exodus recalls for the world the Lord testified of the people of Israel being a stiffnecked people, and to make of Moses a great nation.

Moses rightly recalls how the Lord had brought HIs people out of the land of Egypt, with great power, with a MIGHTY HAND, and then the Egyptians could say the Lord took them out of the land of Egypt to slay them in the wilderness. For the Lord to do this for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, (Israel.) HIs servants, to who the Lord swore (gave the promises) to give the land ( Promised land the people of Israel despised) unto their seed, to inherit it for ever.

Now we see the entrance into the land of Israel, was indeed by the hand of the angel, to drive out the inhebitants of the land, and the Lord would not go up in the middle of them, declaring again they are a stiffnecked people, and unless He consumes them (all) in the way.)




Exodus 32:9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Exodus 33:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
3 Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

 

[Abraham1st]

But Romans 10 is about Israel, so still not about us gentiles in the Body of Christ.

If you don't believe me, you can start from Romans 10:1, who is Paul addressing?

I hope you may see looking back further and fuller, gives a better consideration, that all the world had to receive all of the scriptures, it is not a complicated thing, Israel is Israel, and the Gentiles are the Gentiles, God gave HIs Son to save the world, not one particular part of it, but all nations as said to Abraham.

What as told to Noah to build the ark, ( REMEMBER YOU COMPARED THIS.) was just to Noah, but it ALSO became for all people, that is WHY Noah is the HEIR of the righteousness which is by faith, so all believe as Noah did and DO as Noah did, to believe in the grace of the Lord to be saved, so Noah through that belief condemned the old world, but God sent HIs Son not to condemn the world, but to save them, and we see the saving in the building of the ark, is the same saving that was done through Noah being the heir of that righteousness which is by faith.

The promises given to Israel became to all, the same as we see in Noah that, that instruction, became the same instruction/belief/savin method, to ALL. ( SAVED BY WATER/the ark./baptism..)




Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[Guojing]

Just a little background first, I am not with the churches of this whole world, and never was, I do not agree to what anyone says of their own opinion, and that way it may be easier to trace whether you said all correctly, that obedience to the law of Moses showed faith for Israel, or f it must be something other than what you concluded. ( it wont be offensive, it has to be what is concluded by those of Israel in the tesstimonies of the Lord.)


How did entrance into the promised kingdom of Israel occur, was it how God had driven out the heathen with His hand, afflicted those people and cast them out, that it was not by Israels own sword, or own arm, that saved them, but Gods right hand, and His arm, and the light of His countenance as He had a FAVOUR unto them. (To CONFIRM/FULFIL THE PROMISES made unto the fathers. (Romans 15:8-12. Psalm 18:43-50.)

That FAVOUR unto Israel must be important, as it is the very reason how entrance into the kingdom of Israel was achieved.

Reading in the same chapter of Psalm 44, (if that is OK ass this is your own statements/questioning we are tracing.) we are reminded of the scripture as in Romans 8:36, which is here in Psalm 44:22, and the context is of the affliction then on Israel, their soul bowed down, and the prayer ( of David) for God to arise for Israels help, to redeem Israel for the Lords mercies sake. (the same as how they entered into the kingdom of Israel/by the Lords Favour.)



Psalm 44:2 How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and forgettest our affliction and our oppression?
25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.
26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.


SING unto the Lord, all His saints, HIs anger endures but for a moment, IN HIS FAVOUR IS LIFE, by the Lors Favour David prays his mountain will stand strong. ( I SHALL NEVER BE MOVED.) the Lord had hidden His face and David (as seen, with all of Israel) was troubled.

David gives supplication that there is no profit for him to remain dead in the grave, then there is no praise, for the Lord to hear and to have mercy upon David, (and Israel.) and that the Lord has turned his mourning into dancing, to the end that he may SING PRAISES unto God, to give thanks unto the Lord his God for ever.




Psalm 30:4 Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
7 Lord, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.
8 I cried to thee, O Lord; and unto the Lord I made supplication.
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10 Hear, O Lord, and have mercy upon me: Lord, be thou my helper.
11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O Lord my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.




The prayer again is will the Lord cast off for ever, will He be Favourable no more ? Is His mercy gone for ever, HIs promise to fail for evermore ? Has God forgotten to be gracious, has He in His anger (against Israel.) shut up HIs tender mercies.

David meditates on the work and doing of the Lord, HIs way is in the sanctuary, that He is the God who does wonders, who DECLARED HIs strength among the people. (of Israel.) and has redeemed HIs people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph.




Psalm 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

Psalm 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
14 Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.



Notice it is written for HIs sake we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter, for HIs sake we are killed all the day long. If the Gentiles receive the same affliction, it may not be to cast the heathen out of the land of Israel any more, but it my be the affliction that came onto the people of Israel, as God delivered up His Son for us all, that was what was declared in the gospel, to the world, it is God that justifies, ( THROUGH FAITH, THROUGH FAVOUR, THROUGH MERCIES, THROUGH HIS OWN RIGHT ARM/THROUGH CHRIST/THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST, AND OF NO OTHER CRUCIFIED FOR US.) We CONQUER through HIM THAT LOVED US. (GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.)



John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?




Remember this is not offence, you can take it or leave it, I am not affiliated with any Christian denomination, or even any person, it is only as what is testified TO THIS WORLD.

Apostle Paul reiterates how Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (of Israel.) to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God FOR HIS MERCIES.

Of the SINGING unto the Lord's name, confess to Him among the Gentiles. (Heathen.)

Rejoice you Gentiles, (REJOICE OH YOU NATIONS.) WITH HIS PEOPLE.

Praise the Lord ALL YOU GENTILES, and LAUD Him, ALL YOU PEOPLE.

A root of Jesse, He that shall RISE to REIGN over the Gentiles, in Him shall the Gentiles trust.




Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

2 Samuel 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall STAND for AN ENSIGN OF THE PEOPLE; to it shall THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious.

Psalm 18:43 Thou hast DELIVERED ME FROM THE STRIVINGS OF THE PEOPLE; and thou hast MADE ME THE HEAD OF THE HEATHE: a people whom I have not known SHALL SERVE ME.
44 As soon AS SOON AS THEY HEAR OF ME, they SHALL OBEY ME: the strangers shall SUBMIT THEMSELVES UNTO ME.

Psalm 18:47 It is God that AVENGETH ME, and SUBDUETH THE PEOPLE UNDER ME.
48 He DELIVERETH ME FROM MINE ENEMIES: yea, thou LIFTEST ME UP ABOVE those that rise up against me: thou HAST DELIVERED ME from the violent man.
49 THEREFORE WILL I GIVE THAKS UNTO THEE, O Lord, AMONG THE HEATHEN, and SING PRAISES UNTO THY NAME.
50 GREAT DELIVERANCE GIVETH HE TO HIS KING; and sheweth MDRCY TO HIS ANNOINTED, TO DAVID, and TO HIS SEED FOR EVERMORE.




Finally, for now, look at Psalm 106 for a moment, of the keeping of judgment and doing righteousness at all times to be blessed.

The fathers of the children of Israel, who had the promises given to the fathers, confirmed by Jesus Christ ministering unto them, never understood the Lords wonders in Egypt, and did not remember the multitude of HIs mercies, provoking the Lord at the red sea, NEVERTHELESS, he saved them FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE, that He might make HIs power to be known.

The people of Israel believed the Lord Gods words; they sang his praise, but they soon forgot his works; and didn't wait for HIs counsel, they listed in the wilderness, tempting God, God sent leanness into their soul

God spoke about destroying the children of Israel in entirety, Moses Gods chosen stood in the breach to turn away the wrath of the Lord, the people of Israel DESPISED the PLEASANT LAND, they BELIEVED NOT HIS WORD, murmured and did not listen to the voice of the Lord.




Psalm 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Psalm 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

Psalm 106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
13 They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel:
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Psalm 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:
25 But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord.





Remember also this is only in answer to your words how the people of Israel entered the kingdom of Israel by obedience, of the commandments, of faith.

Exodus recalls for the world the Lord testified of the people of Israel being a stiffnecked people, and to make of Moses a great nation.

Moses rightly recalls how the Lord had brought HIs people out of the land of Egypt, with great power, with a MIGHTY HAND, and then the Egyptians could say the Lord took them out of the land of Egypt to slay them in the wilderness. For the Lord to do this for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, (Israel.) HIs servants, to who the Lord swore (gave the promises) to give the land ( Promised land the people of Israel despised) unto their seed, to inherit it for ever.

Now we see the entrance into the land of Israel, was indeed by the hand of the angel, to drive out the inhebitants of the land, and the Lord would not go up in the middle of them, declaring again they are a stiffnecked people, and unless He consumes them (all) in the way.)




Exodus 32:9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Exodus 33:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
3 Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Thanks, are you agreeing with what I am saying in that post? I am not sure after reading your long exposition.

 

[Abraham1st]

Favour = grace= to be saved= faith, to believe in the love our Lord Jesus Christ had to the world to die for all. (the faith of Christ.)


So yes, we do have the faith we see in the scriptures, had by Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Israel, ( Jacob, and Moses, Moses because of hearing the one sent, but not because of a law followed, because favour alone is how one enters the pleasant land, as well testified.

The one the Lord speaks of, to hear him, as the Lord puts all His words into his mouth, and speaks all that He commands him. (SPOKEN IN IS NAME..)



Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.




To believe on the Son is to believe on Him who sent Him.

A light come into the WORLD, whosoever believes on Him should not abide in darkness, the Son did not come to judge the WORLD, but to SAVE THE WORLD.

He did not speak of Himself, but of the Father who sent Him, who gave commandment what He should say and speak, HIs commandment is life everlasting, ( BELIEF ON THE SON OF GOD.) so the Son speaks even as the Father said. (of LIFE EVERLASTING.)

The Father confirmed what Moses had said, to hear the one He sent, that THIS IS HIS BELOVED SON, IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED, HEAR YE HIM.

The Son received form the Father glory and honour from that voice, and we are to hear that WORD, to do well to TAKE HEED/HEARKEN, as unto a LIGHT THAT SHINES IN A DARK PLACE, until the day star ARISE in your hearts. ( I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.)

Hearkening is then by FAITH. It cannot come by commandment of law.




John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Abraham1st]

So a nice conversation you do have on the Christian forum, by all taking part together, great theology, even on your own topics you have to have things explained, rehearsed, to remember where you are talking from, instead of displaying that the lights are turned down low.

 

[linux.poet]

There is no I in Christ.
None the less Paul said to the Church.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

None the less the way this Scripture is being applied here is still wrong. Taking this Scripture out of context of the rest of the New Testament and all of the Scripture I quoted previously here is an unsound hermeneutic.

While I fully believe that Paul read Ezekiel, Paul was also a murderer who persecuted the church before his conversion, and had difficulties earning the trust of people in the early church for understandable reasons. Many people in the Early Church would have had relatives killed by Paul. This is a personal farewell address that is filled with heartache over his previous actions that have hurt people. Paul is imagining the slanderers that will come along after he leaves that will come along to claim that he isn’t trustworthy. He is telling his leadership to watch out for those.

This Scripture is not some random general truth to condemn silence in the face of evil or error.

Amos 5:10-13
10 They hate the one who reproves in the gate,
and they abhor the one who speaks the truth.
11 Therefore because you trample on the poor
and take from them levies of grain,
you have built houses of hewn stone,
but you shall not live in them;
you have planted pleasant vineyards,
but you shall not drink their wine.
12 For I know how many are your transgressions
and how great are your sins—you who afflict the righteous, who take a bribe
and push aside the needy in the gate.
13 Therefore the prudent will keep silent in such a time,
for it is an evil time.

a time to tear and a time to sew;
a time to keep silent and a time to speak;

If one is asserting that a passage of Scripture means something that contradicts the rest of the Bible, I think their interpretation needs to change.

 

[Abraham1st]

And yet Jesus instructed the young man in Matt 19 to obey the ten commandments in order to enter life. When you can reconcile such verses as Matt 19:17, Rom 2:7, and Rom 2:13 with verses such as Gal 2:16

"...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

Or Eph 2:8-10
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

then you'll even better understand the gospel.

ARBITER01 said:
You're not obeying Jesus if you're obeying moses. In fact, a person obeying moses does not know Jesus, and He does not know them.




Lets see exactly who Jesus instructed, what He instructed and why.



The context in Matthew 19, is already about being of the kingdom of Heaven, and of Jesus saying to His disciples t allow the little children to come unto Him, FOR OF SUCH IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, the same as in Luke 18 which I have included below for better context.... Whosoever shall not receive the KINGDOM OF GOD AS A LITTLE CHILD SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER THEREIN.

Now this time look in Luke 18, for EVEN more context, of a Pharisee who as those in the law who trust in their own righteousness, ( Romans 10:3-4.) think the works they do, such as the fasting, the giving of tithes, to not do extortion, to not be unjust, to not be an adulterer, all the keeping of the law as this same parable represents, just before how to really enter the Kingdom of God ( by faith/conversion/receiving of the Holy Ghost, which is as a little child.) is told in the example Jesus gives of the little children.

Then a certain RULER asks Jesus, like tempting Him, as this we see is what those rulers did often to Christ, and also we see Luke 23:35, it is the rulers who derided Christ and who delivered Him to be crucified, and the ruler is already comparable to the very same Parable in this chapter of Luke 18, of the Pharisee who TRUSTS IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The rich rulers list of trust in his own righteousness was to not kill, to not do adultery, to not steal, to not bear false witness, to honour your mother and father, and in Matthew 19 to love your neighbour as yourself.


( REMEMBER JESUS HAS AREADY TESTIFIED TO THE WORLD THAT TO BE JUSTIFIED YOUHAVE TO HUMBLE YOURSELF, WHICH IS DONE AS THE OTHER END OF THE SAME PARABLE, TO BE LOWLY AND TO BEG GOD TO BE MERCIFUL=BELIEVING IN HIS GRACE OF CHRIST.)


So now I can reveal all this for us on the Christian forum, it is easy to see the total direction where this HAS to go, the ruler is not an example of the law and how it is right in any way whatsoever, but the very opposite, of how it is WRONG in every way instead.

To an exalted rich ruler, who also according to the parable in the same chapter of Luke 18, trusts in himself that he is righteous, how is he going to be able to hear ( he that has ears let him hear/faith.) that he must drop all law, and all exaltation, to now be enabled to trust ONLY IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF OUR LOIRD JESUS CHRIST, to have to do as the Apostles of the Lord were chosen and anointed to do, to forsake all they have to follow Christ, and that, that can be the only same possible answer of what it meant for the young man and for all men, to take up their cross and to follow Christ...





Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.




Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: AND COME, TAKE UP THE CROSS, AND FOLLOW ME.

Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE; but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, WE HAVE FORSAKEN ALL, AND FOLLOWED THEE; what shall we have therefore?

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 

[The Liturgist]

*takes out copy of 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith*

In Section 19, that clarifies where my Bible Church stands on the Mosaic Law. It divides the Law into three sections. The ceremonial law, aka the sacrificing of sheep and goats, was fulfilled by Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross, and was abolished by the rending of the veil at Christ’s death. The second part of the law is the civil law, the law about how the nation of Israel should conduct itself. This law mandates the execution of homosexuals and adulterous women, and which no Christian denomination follows today. This law was abolished when the nation of Israel ceased to be a nation, about 70 A.D.

The third part of the Law is God’s moral law, the law whereby we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:20) that no human beings measure up to. This was included through the Law of Moses in the Decalogue and the laws about idols and sexual immorality.

The Decalogue was the basis of many of the commands and teachings of Jesus. Christians are obligated to follow the commands and teachings of Jesus. In so far as there is a teaching of Christ that comes from the Decalogue, Christians follow it, and when there is no teaching of Christ, or Christ says something that pushes against the Decalogue, as in the case of the Sabbath debates, Gentile believers in Christ follow Christ. We are Christians and we follow Jesus. In affirming, extending and upgrading, the Decalogue’s commands (Matthew 5:21-48; Mark 12:28-34), Christ fulfilled the Decalogue, and showed himself consistent with it.

Therefore, Christians follow the teachings of Christ, and the essentials given here:


The teachings of Christ define Christian morality. Sin and the moral law of God has not changed from Moses to Jesus, it just has been more fully explained. God’s righteous standard has not changed.

Basically, I think we agree.

The caution I would give is that the instructions in Paul’s Epistles are guidelines as to how churches should be run, not instructions on which to condemn people of sin. Christ and God are the authority on morality, and Paul’s epistles are arguments are about how to live for Christ in a culture obsessed with excellence in all things (Greek culture) without falling back into the Mosaic law code. I do think that all Christians should pursue sanctification by following the instructions, as not doing so can harm your fellow believer and is absolutely infuriating, but accusing a fellow believer of sin based on not following Paul’s instructions may be out of order.

Otherwise, we subject Paul to the irony of saying that we are not under law but under grace, while he prescribes yet another law. Paul doesn’t claim that his instructions are a moral authority; when asked to defend them, he defers to his intelligence and authority as an Apostle. In short, he has been given revelation from God and inspiration from the Holy Spirit which we should defer to in how we run the church as an institution.

Why is this question being asked in front of everyone?




Engaging in intellectual arguments to defend what we believe to be true is not a moral virtue, and failing to engage is not a sin. In fact, there are Scriptures that the state the opposite is true.




Sometimes we need to be patient, to wait for the sands of time to turn so that others may see and experience our perspective, rather than throwing the truth they will not accept in their faces until they submit.

There are numerous Scriptures against quarreling and gossip and slander against fellow believers as well. Here’s just one of them:


Therefore, refraining from a quarrel or argument is not a sin. The opposite is true. To suggest that one is sinning by avoiding an argument is to slander one’s fellow believer. (Colossians 3:8, Ephesians 4:31, Titus 3:2 )

Where is the love in this first sentence? I think you are thinking of Ephesians 4:


I don’t think accusing one’s brother of sin publicly in front of others is very loving. Nor is subjecting one’s brother or sister in Christ to needless criticism and arguments. We are called to love each other, not quarrel with each other.

As for being our brother’s keeper, that’s Cain’s lame excuse to try and get out of punishment for murder in Genesis 4, that he wasn’t his brother’s keeper. That’s not the basis for doctrine, unless we’re talking about the instructions in the Decalogue or Matthew 5 not to murder. Cain didn’t have an obligation to argue with God, in fact, he should have repented of his sin. There are clear instructions as to how the church authority is supposed to be laid out in the Epistles and there will be no awards given for stubbornly defending your personal opinion at other people’s expense, like Cain did.


I’d like to hear it. What Scripture do you have to defend your actions?

Because these posts are not only telling me that criticism of my fellow believer is a moral virtue, but that I am obliged to do so to avoid sinning. That’s not anywhere close to Ephesians 4:32.

Because, obviously, I hate criticism, especially personal criticism directed at me. It fills me with a heart of rage. Some of it is legitimate, I’ve discovered of the years. I’m fallen, I’m not perfect, and I appreciate it when people tell me the truth. When they have the courage to tell the truth, it helps me. FINE. But there’s always a fine. There’s always the anger rushing out of the fallen machine as the gears have to stop for yet another round of infuriating maintenance. And then there’s the unjust criticism, the insults. I’ve been kicked around one too many times. The temptation for revenge is ever at hand, the “You don’t mess with me!” voice shrieking its protest out of the dark void of my unconscious. Sometimes I don’t even know whether the criticism is untrue or not, and have to wait for God to show me more.

The idea that someone would think they have a moral obligation to put others through this agony, unless they have a good reason, strikes me as reprehensible. The opposite idea is a thing of horror, we should not feel like we have to tiptoe around each other’s feelings, no to that. But sometimes, no amount of criticism of ours will produce a change in behavior, and we have to let someone else run off a cliff so they see why that is a bad idea. In other cases, criticism and correction has been delegated to an authority, and we would be wise to defer to them, to allow the authority to engage in discipline, rather than taking matters into our own hands. Other times it is not a fault, but simply a difference in opinion. It it wise to learn to understand these things. Personal criticism is a weapon of last resort, rather than the first we reach for. To do otherwise is to enable the flesh.

Criticism is just the anger of man at another man. It is not a moral virtue.


I maintain that James 5:19-20 does not negate James 1:19-20.

I maintain that Jude 1:17-23 does not negate Matthew 18:15-18.

No human being has a moral obligation to criticize another human being.

Exquisite post, my dear @linux.poet , which stylistically befits someone like you who is both skilled in poetry and rhetoric and is also a user of Linux, a version of the most elegant family of operating systems in use, the Unix-like operating systems. Indeed what you said radiates Eastern Orthodox values, which pleases me given the supposedly vast gap between Baptists and the Orthodox may be much narrower than is commonly assumed, given my pleasant experiences with the venerable Baptist minister @Der Alte who I have invited to post in Traditional Theology.

Indeed we baptize by (where medically possible) by triple full immersion, the only difference being our understanding of the mystery and that we baptize children and infants (who we baptize while seated in the font using an immersive splash that does not risk accidental aspiration of the blessed water, but if medical needs preclude full immersion we will use affusion (pouring) or some other technique, whereas, correct me if I’m wrong, some baptists would not bother at that point due to the memorialist sacramental theology).