Being born again and Prosperity?

[FutureAndAHope]

What does born again mean? Born again means that we have received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when we accept Jesus into our lives. Jesus offers us forgiveness of our sins, not based upon our righteousness, we don’t work to receive the Spirit, and we don’t work to keep the Spirit, but we must resolve to repent, to leave behind our sins and the dark areas of our life.

Accepting Jesus brings with it much blessing. But we have to be careful how we present the idea of being born again, and the blessing that we receive, that it does not become a ticket for instant, or assured blessing. There are certain things we can believe God for, but equally there are things that we need to allow for God’s will.

As an example, although Jesus said things like:

Mark 11:23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.​

A person may have a business, and claim that word over their business that they will make a great profit, and there is nothing wrong with claiming such a thing. With the following understanding:

James 4:13-16 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. ​

There is a fine line between claiming Jesus promises, and boasting. We still need to allow for God’s will in all of our prayers. Although we can pray for our needs to be met, as an example, we can’t just pray prayers, for our own pleasures.

James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.​

Also in the area of praying for those who are sick; Jesus would have us pray for the sick, but we can’t demand that God use us. Firstly we must be proved faithful.

1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.​

If we are not able or willing to present the word of God faithfully, we will not be able to perform a sign.

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.​

This does not mean that if we don’t see healing “immediately” that we are unfaithful? Not at all. It is just a fact that “claiming” a promise does not mean that in all cases we will have it.

God actually assigns the gifts based upon the faithfulness and faith of the messenger.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. ​

Note Paul gives an order “first”, “second”, “third” etc. This shows there is a level of trust God gives people. He goes on to say not everyone is a miracle worker, an apostle etc.

1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? ​

He finishes by saying “earnestly desire” the best gifts.

1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. ​

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.​

However we should have great faith, and this is where verses like:

Mark 11:23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.​

If we or someone else have a heath issue, financial difficulty, emotional issue; we can stand on the word of God, that He will answer us, to bring healing or provision. In many cases God will answer us because of our faith. But again we have seen we can’t demand, but we certainly should not quickly surrender. For God respects faithful, persistence, and faith.

Mathew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.​

I have heard it preached, that when we receive the Holy Spirit, are born again, we not only become a spiritual new creation, but we receive assured success, in healing, finances, emotions, as a part of the born gain experience. But we can not equate being born again with perfect success.

God certainly does not want us depressed, oppressed, or troubled. And we can stand on His word for personal healing. But we have to acknowledge that there are times when God’s will appears to be to allow us to walk through valleys, where things are not always perfect.

James 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.​

If everything was always perfect, we could not be refined with spiritual patience. Some time character is more important to God than our comfort.

The bible says that all scripture is God breathed. The scripture tells us that one of the greatest prophets in the Bible died from a sickness. This shows us that being full of God’s power, and having the Spirit does not always mean we are guaranteed perfect prosperity.

2Ki 13:14 Elisha had become sick with the illness of which he would die.​

I think it is dangerous not to look at the whole of scripture; my mother as an example, tried in “faith” to go off her medication, and fast for healing, she almost died. For the rest of her life she advised against such acts of “faith”. I personally, although having prayed for the sick, and seen them healed both instantly, and through fasting, had to have an operation in hospital after I was not healed after many months of faithful believing and at times painful prayer.

Does this stop me praying for the sick? No. Does it diminish my desire to believe for the mountains to be moved? In no way. But if Elisha died sick, we need to allow for such possibilities in the lives of the people we pray for, and the church.

 

[Richard T]

What does born again mean? Born again means that we have received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when we accept Jesus into our lives. Jesus offers us forgiveness of our sins, not based upon our righteousness, we don’t work to receive the Spirit, and we don’t work to keep the Spirit, but we must resolve to repent, to leave behind our sins and the dark areas of our life.

Accepting Jesus brings with it much blessing. But we have to be careful how we present the idea of being born again, and the blessing that we receive, that it does not become a ticket for instant, or assured blessing. There are certain things we can believe God for, but equally there are things that we need to allow for God’s will.

As an example, although Jesus said things like:

Mark 11:23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.​

A person may have a business, and claim that word over their business that they will make a great profit, and there is nothing wrong with claiming such a thing. With the following understanding:

James 4:13-16 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. ​

There is a fine line between claiming Jesus promises, and boasting. We still need to allow for God’s will in all of our prayers. Although we can pray for our needs to be met, as an example, we can’t just pray prayers, for our own pleasures.

James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.​

Also in the area of praying for those who are sick; Jesus would have us pray for the sick, but we can’t demand that God use us. Firstly we must be proved faithful.

1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.​

If we are not able or willing to present the word of God faithfully, we will not be able to perform a sign.

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.​

This does not mean that if we don’t see healing “immediately” that we are unfaithful? Not at all. It is just a fact that “claiming” a promise does not mean that in all cases we will have it.

God actually assigns the gifts based upon the faithfulness and faith of the messenger.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. ​

Note Paul gives an order “first”, “second”, “third” etc. This shows there is a level of trust God gives people. He goes on to say not everyone is a miracle worker, an apostle etc.

1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? ​

He finishes by saying “earnestly desire” the best gifts.

1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. ​

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.​

However we should have great faith, and this is where verses like:

Mark 11:23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.​

If we or someone else have a heath issue, financial difficulty, emotional issue; we can stand on the word of God, that He will answer us, to bring healing or provision. In many cases God will answer us because of our faith. But again we have seen we can’t demand, but we certainly should not quickly surrender. For God respects faithful, persistence, and faith.

Mathew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.​

I have heard it preached, that when we receive the Holy Spirit, are born again, we not only become a spiritual new creation, but we receive assured success, in healing, finances, emotions, as a part of the born gain experience. But we can not equate being born again with perfect success.

God certainly does not want us depressed, oppressed, or troubled. And we can stand on His word for personal healing. But we have to acknowledge that there are times when God’s will appears to be to allow us to walk through valleys, where things are not always perfect.

James 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.​

If everything was always perfect, we could not be refined with spiritual patience. Some time character is more important to God than our comfort.

The bible says that all scripture is God breathed. The scripture tells us that one of the greatest prophets in the Bible died from a sickness. This shows us that being full of God’s power, and having the Spirit does not always mean we are guaranteed perfect prosperity.

2Ki 13:14 Elisha had become sick with the illness of which he would die.​

I think it is dangerous not to look at the whole of scripture; my mother as an example, tried in “faith” to go off her medication, and fast for healing, she almost died. For the rest of her life she advised against such acts of “faith”. I personally, although having prayed for the sick, and seen them healed both instantly, and through fasting, had to have an operation in hospital after I was not healed after many months of faithful believing and at times painful prayer.

Does this stop me praying for the sick? No. Does it diminish my desire to believe for the mountains to be moved? In no way. But if Elisha died sick, we need to allow for such possibilities in the lives of the people we pray for, and the church.

Thanks for sharing. The word of faith movement leaves quite a few people in a rut likely because some teach it so poorly. The problem is that so many try to manufacture faith with their mind. But the reality is that faith has to come from God. Too many assume they have faith but in reality they just are hoping. When you have faith though, you know you have what you believed for. When you went to the hospital, were you healed? I pray so as God does use doctors, if so is it any less faith? Many debate what God will or will not do for someone, we must remember that Paul prayed and heard from God three times about the thorn in the flesh. To me the default position is to expect God to do something, when, and how is up to Him. However, if he says no after much persistence, then we should hear about it, and even have some understanding of the why. We should never condemn or condescend to anyone that is suffering or has a need. I am glad you are responding to those in need, praying and obtaining the results that God gives. God bless

 

[Aaron112]

What does born again mean? Born again means that we have received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when we accept Jesus into our lives.

1) no.
2) no.
3) no.

 

[Aaron112]

A person may have a business, and claim that word over their business that they will make a great profit, and there is nothing wrong with claiming such a thing.

Contrary to Scripture!
Whoever seeks to be rich (has already) fallen into many temptations (and sinned).

 

[Aaron112]

2Ki 13:14 Elisha had become sick with the illness of which he would die.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The closing scene of Elisha's life. It was now at least sixty-three years since his call, so that he was at this time very possibly above ninety.

20And Elisha died and was buried. Now the Moabite raiders used to come into the land every spring. 21Once, as the Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders,

so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb.

And as soon as his body touched the bones of Elisha, the man was revived and stood up on his feet.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Contrary to Scripture!
Whoever seeks to be rich (has already) fallen into many temptations (and sinned).

This is the point I am making, (it is contrary to scripture) scripture says:

James 4:13-16 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

I am saying it is not wrong to believe God, even for big things, but we have to be aware it is all according to God's will, that we stand or fall.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

When you went to the hospital, were you healed?

yes.

 

[Richard T]

Glad you got your healing. Praise God.

As to the Jame's scripture do you think it is in general, or limited to making money? I asked ai about paul and jesus. It responded that Jesus always did God's will so it was not needed. As to paul here are three references.
"Expressing submission: Paul's writings frequently contain qualifying phrases that acknowledge God's ultimate authority over his plans.

• Acts 18:21: Leaving Ephesus, he told the people, "I will return to you again if God wills."
• 1 Corinthians 4:19: He wrote to the Corinthians, "I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills."
• Romans 1:10: He wrote to the church in Rome, "I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you."

It just seems weird to say if it's God's will if he told you to go to a certain place?
If you were given the oath in court and added, i will tell the truth "if the lord wills" you would be in trouble.
If you prayed with someone that was wanting salvation or even deliverance you would not pray "if the Lord wills?"
But in prayer for healing some believe similarily, that it is God's will to heal, so they too would not add if the Lord wills, while others would always add that.

I guess what I am saying is when you know something is God's will you do not have to say it, but when the outcome is uncertain, you should say it. That paul in those scriptures was yet uncertain, so he would say if the Lord wills.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The closing scene of Elisha's life. It was now at least sixty-three years since his call, so that he was at this time very possibly above ninety.

20And Elisha died and was buried. Now the Moabite raiders used to come into the land every spring. 21Once, as the Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders,

so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb.

And as soon as his body touched the bones of Elisha, the man was revived and stood up on his feet.

The point I make here is that Elisha died of a sickness, not just in his sleep. It is possible for a Christian to get sick, and it be God's will that they die of it. Regradless of age.

I had a friend with mild disabilities, whose mother was his carer. His mother passed away. Soon after my friend got sick with a virus, in his 40's, and passed away too. I believe this was God's will to prevent my friend from having a long and loveless life. The problem I see with hyper faith, is it is very judgmental, and does not allow people to experience any loss. Often making people feel guilty for unanswered prayer. We need to know that God can use anything for His purposes.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Glad you got your healing. Praise God.

As to the Jame's scripture do you think it is in general, or limited to making money? I asked ai about paul and jesus. It responded that Jesus always did God's will so it was not needed. As to paul here are three references.
"Expressing submission: Paul's writings frequently contain qualifying phrases that acknowledge God's ultimate authority over his plans.

• Acts 18:21: Leaving Ephesus, he told the people, "I will return to you again if God wills."
• 1 Corinthians 4:19: He wrote to the Corinthians, "I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills."
• Romans 1:10: He wrote to the church in Rome, "I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you."

It just seems weird to say if it's God's will if he told you to go to a certain place?
If you were given the oath in court and added, i will tell the truth "if the lord wills" you would be in trouble.
If you prayed with someone that was wanting salvation or even deliverance you would not pray "if the Lord wills?"
But in prayer for healing some believe similarily, that it is God's will to heal, so they too would not add if the Lord wills, while others would always add that.

I guess what I am saying is when you know something is God's will you do not have to say it, but when the outcome is uncertain, you should say it. That paul in those scriptures was yet uncertain, so he would say if the Lord wills.

I think it comes back to what you said:

To me the default position is to expect God to do something, when, and how is up to Him. However, if he says no after much persistence, then we should hear about it, and even have some understanding of the why. We should never condemn or condescend to anyone that is suffering or has a need.

God's general will is to heal, so I agree that should be our default position. But there are cases where He may use a sick person in the situation they are in. I know of a Christian lady who broke her neck. She is in pain daily. But God has used her to reach out with the gospel to 10 of thousands of disabled people. I pray for her healing, but what if God's will is for her to continue her work as she is currently doing?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If you prayed with someone that was wanting salvation or even deliverance you would not pray "if the Lord wills?"

I believe we would pray in faith, believing for healing. But like I said in one of my previous posts, about my disabled friend who died early, there are times it is God's will that we die, to prevent further suffering.

There are also times that God will not give deliverance until we repent of sin, or there may be a delay, as He works in our heart. So really we must leave everything to the LORD even healing.

 

[Richard T]

I believe we would pray in faith, believing for healing. But like I said in one of my previous posts, about my disabled friend who died early, there are times it is God's will that we die, to prevent further suffering.

There are also times that God will not give deliverance until we repent of sin, or there may be a delay, as He works in our heart. So really we must leave everything to the LORD even healing.

Yes, we leave it with God. There are some tough cases like the one you mention. I went to a church where there was a blind woman that led worship. One day she came in and told us that she had won a brand new truck in a supermarket chain promotion. She believed it was God because the woman that helps her was needing a vehicle to help care for her. While that was not her sight, it shows that God's grace is sufficient.