10/7/23 Anniversary Hamas Attacked Israel

[Pepperdoodle]

I refuse to support the Netanyahu government nor Hamas. Both are equally evil.
Does that answer your question sufficiently?

In my interactions with you, no matter the topic, overall few of your opinions answer sufficiently.

 

[BPPLEE]

 

[ViaCrucis]

Israel did not committ genocide. If, and do say IF, Israel committed genocide, then so did the USA and every other nation that has ever gone to war.

The US is guilty of genocide--against the indigenous nations. The indiscriminate killing of human beings and targeting an entire group of people for extermination is, by definition, genocide.

Targeting non-combatants is a war crime.
Targeting an entire group of people for extermination is genocide.

Israel is guilty of both.

And deflecting to the US doesn't help, because the US is guilty of both war crimes and committing genocide.

Deflecting to Hamas doesn't help either, in case you wanted to try that route, because Hamas is guilty of terrorism against Israelis and oppression of the Palestinians in Gaza. One evil doesn't justify another evil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Pepperdoodle]

As a Christian I cannot support genocide.

Can we presume since you don't support genocide that it also means you don't support genocide in the womb aka abortion?

 

[Hentenza]

The US is guilty of genocide--against the indigenous nations. The indiscriminate killing of human beings and targeting an entire group of people for extermination is, by definition, genocide.

Targeting non-combatants is a war crime.
Targeting an entire group of people for extermination is genocide.

Israel is guilty of both.

And deflecting to the US doesn't help, because the US is guilty of both war crimes and committing genocide.

Deflecting to Hamas doesn't help either, in case you wanted to try that route, because Hamas is guilty of terrorism against Israelis and oppression of the Palestinians in Gaza. One evil doesn't justify another evil.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree with you about the native Americans. There were even schools to destroy their identity. However, war is horrible. Innocent people die and typically most are from the aggressor. When someone attacks someone else they invite the war to their land. Japan attacked the US and we destroyed their land and many people died because of it. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel attacked their land and many people died because of it. In both cases the aggressor’s actions is the root cause for the deaths and devastation. Israel is not guilty of genocide any more than the US is guilty of genocide against the Japanese.

 

[Vambram]

The US is guilty of genocide--against the indigenous nations. The indiscriminate killing of human beings and targeting an entire group of people for extermination is, by definition, genocide.

Targeting non-combatants is a war crime.
Targeting an entire group of people for extermination is genocide.

Israel is guilty of both.

And deflecting to the US doesn't help, because the US is guilty of both war crimes and committing genocide.

Deflecting to Hamas doesn't help either, in case you wanted to try that route, because Hamas is guilty of terrorism against Israelis and oppression of the Palestinians in Gaza. One evil doesn't justify another evil.

-CryptoLutheran

Israel did NOT target civilians. Hamas used civilians as human shields.

 

[Vambram]

US sends CENTCOM troops to Israel for Trump-brokered Hamas ceasefire monitoring

Adm. Brad Cooper said U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) troops will establish a ceasefire monitoring center in Israel as the President Donald Trump-brokered peace deal between Israel and Hamas begins.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Vambram]

White House turns to expanding Abraham Accords after Israel-Hamas ceasefire

Following the Israel-Hamas ceasefire agreement, U.S. officials see momentum to expand the Abraham Accords and pursue normalization with Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Vambram]

Trump’s grand peace strategy is bearing fruit, in Middle East and around the world

President Trump's Middle East peace plan gains international support as Hamas faces isolation over refusal to disarm in comprehensive regional strategy.

www.foxnews.com

 

[ViaCrucis]

Israel did NOT target civilians. Hamas used civilians as human shields.

Israel's long history of targeting civilians, including children, is well documented. Murdering Palestinian children is just another Tuesday for the IDF.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Vambram]

Israel's long history of targeting civilians, including children, is well documented. Murdering Palestinian children is just another Tuesday for the IDF.

-CryptoLutheran

That assertion by you is nothing but slander.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That assertion by you is nothing but slander.

No, it's just tragically true.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/two-years-hellish-war-have-devastated-gazas-children

https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/UNICEF_CAAC-July2011.pdf

OPT: Number of children killed doubles - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory; published on 12 Oct 2006 by TNH

reliefweb.int

Truth is not slander.

As Christians we have a moral obligation for speaking truth. We also have a moral obligation to be on the side of life and human dignity.

It is unjustifiable and anti-Christian to support the murder of children in the name of Nationalism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Pepperdoodle]

As a Christian I cannot support genocide.

See you replying to Vambram.
Can you give your reply to this question I asked you earlier..."Can we presume since you don't support genocide that it also means you don't support genocide in the womb aka abortion?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with you about the native Americans. There were even schools to destroy their identity. However, war is horrible. Innocent people die and typically most are from the aggressor. When someone attacks someone else they invite the war to their land. Japan attacked the US and we destroyed their land and many people died because of it. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel attacked their land and many people died because of it. In both cases the aggressor’s actions is the root cause for the deaths and devastation. Israel is not guilty of genocide any more than the US is guilty of genocide against the Japanese.

I think a moral critique of the US' actions in some cases is worthwhile. That said, I have a hard time comparing US actions in Japan (atom bombs not withstanding) with the Israeli military's actions, historically, in regard to Palestinians--and especially the current Gaza situation.

If US soldiers deliberately shot and killed Japanese children and unarmed combatants, and if they were ordered to do so by our leaders--then the appropriate redress would be having those responsible tried for war crimes in international court.

As a Christian it is unconscionable to use love of nation or national identity as a means of deflecting from the Christian moral obligation of respecting and honoring the Divine Image in every human being.

Do I think what the US did to Japan compares to what Israel is doing to Gaza? Not even remotely.
But if there is a fair comparison, then that means condemning US actions; not sanctioning Israel's actions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

See you replying to Vambram.
Can you give your reply to this question I asked you earlier..."Can we presume since you don't support genocide that it also means you don't support genocide in the womb aka abortion?"

I consider abortion a complex topic. Without any qualifying factors, I consider abortion to be tragic and wrong. But no, I don't compare abortion to the deliberate murder of children.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Vambram]

No, it's just tragically true.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/two-years-hellish-war-have-devastated-gazas-children

https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/UNICEF_CAAC-July2011.pdf

OPT: Number of children killed doubles - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory; published on 12 Oct 2006 by TNH

reliefweb.int

Truth is not slander.

As Christians we have a moral obligation for speaking truth. We also have a moral obligation to be on the side of life and human dignity.

It is unjustifiable and anti-Christian to support the murder of children in the name of Nationalism.

-CryptoLutheran

Those wars were started by the demonic savages of Hamas who use innocent people, including children, as human shields.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those wars were started by the demonic savages of Hamas who use innocent people, including children, as human shields.

Do you believe that Palestinians are human beings created in the Image of God and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Pepperdoodle]

I consider abortion a complex topic. Without any qualifying factors, I consider abortion to be tragic and wrong. But no, I don't compare abortion to the deliberate murder of children.

Growing babies in the womb are murdered during abortion. So yes, it's a deliberate murder of growing babies.
Abortion isn't a complex topic. It's an ungodly topic. No Christian should support the killing of growing babies in the womb.

Was the murder of children in Israel by the hamas' attack on 10/7/23 wrong?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Growing babies in the womb are murdered during abortion. So yes, it's a deliberate murder of growing babies.
Abortion isn't a complex topic. It's an ungodly topic. No Christian should support the killing of growing babies in the womb.

As much as I think this topic can be worthwhile to discuss in nuance, that's not going to happen here.

In this particular instance, however, I feel that this is an attempt to deflect.

So for our purposes here: I oppose abortion as morally wrong. Which I also stated already in my previous statement.

Was the murder of children in Israel by the hamas' attack on 10/7/23 wrong?

Yes. Obviously so.

Let's explore this topic more.

If Israeli soldiers attacked Palestinians and kidnapped Palestinian families, held them hostage, and if Hamas responded by bombing Israeli towns and villages (including civilian buildings like hospitals, schools, and synagogues) would your position be the same as the one you hold?

More specifically: Is your position, morally speaking, that killing innocents is wrong (no matter who does it); or is your position, morally speaking, that Hamas is wrong? Does the religion, ethnicity, nationality, or identity of the people involved change your position morally? Or do you maintain a universal moral rubric?

Do you believe that the life of a Palestinian is of equal value as the life of an Israeli? Do you believe the life of a Muslim is of equal value to a Jewish person?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

I think a moral critique of the US' actions in some cases is worthwhile. That said, I have a hard time comparing US actions in Japan (atom bombs not withstanding) with the Israeli military's actions, historically, in regard to Palestinians--and especially the current Gaza situation.

If US soldiers deliberately shot and killed Japanese children and unarmed combatants, and if they were ordered to do so by our leaders--then the appropriate redress would be having those responsible tried for war crimes in international court.

As a Christian it is unconscionable to use love of nation or national identity as a means of deflecting from the Christian moral obligation of respecting and honoring the Divine Image in every human being.

Do I think what the US did to Japan compares to what Israel is doing to Gaza? Not even remotely.
But if there is a fair comparison, then that means condemning US actions; not sanctioning Israel's actions.

-CryptoLutheran

You’re missing the point brother. The issue here is war. Hamas attacked Israel which premeditated the war. This is fact. Hamas did not return the hostages which extended the war. Hamas hid themselves and their weapons among the people which created casualties. The root cause of the death in Gaza is Hamas not Israel.

As far as the US war with Japan there are many parallels here. But what is not there is the media reports blaming the US for the destruction in Japan and inflaming the weak minded against the US. Many people in the US has drank the kool aid with regards to Hamas propaganda machine which includes quite a few of the liberal media outlets in the US. In many cases there is no independent source of casualties in Gaza other than the Health ministry controlled by Hamas. The liberal folks in the US have been caught on that lure.

I don’t think that, as a nation, Israel had much option in not attacking Hamas in Gaza just like the US did not have much option in attacking Japan in Japan. I think the condemnation of Israel is not warranted but perpetuated by those of the liberal persuasion that hate the conservative government of Netanyahu.