Israel and the New Covenant.

[ralliann]

Ok so then explain what your argument is. I don’t see anything in your post that supports the law being in effect prior to Moses so please clarify. Thanks.

Well God brought wrath on Soddom and Gomorrha.

Ge 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


It depends on how you read this..

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham finally get God down to ten righteous to spare the city.
We know only Lot and his daughters were saved.

What was the great cry? Great can mean "many". Crying to God. Was it the blood of the righteous that had been shed? That only 3 were left?

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }

Gods law is holy, just, and good. He judges the wicked. A very good thing.

 

[Hentenza]

Well God brought wrath on Soddom and Gomorrha.

Ge 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


It depends on how you read this..

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham finally get God down to ten righteous to spare the city.
We know only Lot and his daughters were saved.

What was the great cry? Great can mean "many". Crying to God. Was it the blood of the righteous that had been shed? That only 3 were left?

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }

But the law did not come until 430 years after Abraham (Gal. 3:17) so I’m still not sure what you are trying to say. I’m not trying to be dense but just want to reply to you properly.

 

[ralliann]

But the law did not come until 430 years after Abraham (Gal. 3:17) so I’m still not sure what you are trying to say. I’m not trying to be dense but just want to reply to you properly.

He said to Noah
120 years waiting while the ark was built before destruction Came
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
He said of Abraham
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The law 400 years later, waiting for the fullness of sin of the Amorites.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

 

[Hentenza]

He said to Noah
120 years waiting while the ark was built before destruction Came
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
He said of Abraham
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The law 400 years later, waiting for the fullness of sin of the Amorites.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Nothing here proves that the Law was given before Moses. Keeping the way of the lord was not even what saved Abraham but only his faith saved him (Rom. 4:2-4).

 

[ralliann]

Nothing here proves that the Law was given before Moses. Keeping the way of the lord was not even what saved Abraham but only his faith saved him (Rom. 4:2-4).

Not Moses law no. Noachide? Yes. Abraham was considered a Noachide. Why would he not have been.

 

[Hentenza]

Not Moses law no. Noachide? Yes. Abraham was considered a Noachide. Why would he not have been.

Abraham was indeed a Noachide, however the 4th commandment of the Mosaic law was not part of the Noachide law. The Noachide laws included include prohibitions against idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, and eating a limb from a live animal, along with the positive command to establish courts of law. Also these laws did not appear until after the flood. These laws are not the same as those given to the Jews during Moses time but a precursor to them.

 

[ralliann]

Abraham was indeed a Noachide, however the 4th commandment of the Mosaic law was not part of the Noachide law.

No it is not.

The Noachide laws included include prohibitions against idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, and eating a limb from a live animal, along with the positive command to establish courts of law. Also these laws did not appear until after the flood. These laws are not the same as those given to the Jews during Moses time but a precursor to them.

No they are not the Same. Israel's law was for them.
Courts of Justice
Moses Father in law, a Gentile knew a few things about setting up a justice system.
12 And Jethro, Moses’ father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses’ father in law before God.
13 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws. {one … : Heb. a man and his fellow }
17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. {Thou wilt … : Heb. Fading thou wilt fade }
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

The nations were Judged for their sin by Israel.
Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Listing of some of the nations sins. Won't list, too long.

Le 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Le 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

 

[Guojing]

Nothing here proves that the Law was given before Moses. Keeping the way of the lord was not even what saved Abraham but only his faith saved him (Rom. 4:2-4).

Supposed Abraham declined to be physically circumcised at Genesis 17, would he still be saved?

 

[Hentenza]

Supposed Abraham declined to be physically circumcised at Genesis 17, would he still be saved?

Yes because he was saved by his faith not by his works(Rom. 4:1-3).

 

[Hentenza]

No it is not.

No they are not the Same. Israel's law was for them.
Courts of Justice
Moses Father in law, a Gentile knew a few things about setting up a justice system.
12 And Jethro, Moses’ father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses’ father in law before God.
13 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws. {one … : Heb. a man and his fellow }
17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. {Thou wilt … : Heb. Fading thou wilt fade }
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

The nations were Judged for their sin by Israel.
Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Listing of some of the nations sins. Won't list, too long.

Le 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Le 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

I’m still clueless as to what it is that your argument is. My arguments with the previous poster was about the 4th commandment but you seem to be arguing something else.

 

[Guojing]

Yes because he was saved by his faith not by his works(Rom. 4:1-3).

That passage was talking about Genesis 15, which was before Genesis 17.

So how would you understand what God said in Genesis 17:14.

He was joking there?

 

[Hentenza]

That passage was talking about Genesis 15, which was before Genesis 17.

So how would you understand what God said in Genesis 17:14.

He was joking there?

Paul tells us in Gal 3:17 that the law came 430 years after Abraham. Is he wrong?

God gave Abraham the command for circumcision in Gen. 17:10 but this was not the law. Here only circumcision is commanded.

Why would He be joking?

 

[Clare73]

Why this passage in Hebrews 3 and 4 is warning us of the exact thing that is being taught, today if we hear His voice and not harden our hearts to the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:7-19 Heb 4:11

Read it again. . .it's not about the "deceitfulness of sin," it's about failure to enter into full-time salvation rest in the work of Jesus Christ (just as Israel failed to enter into Canaan rest), rather than rest in one's own works of the law to save, it's about failure to remain in gospel rest for salvation and returning to the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Read it again. . .it's not about the "deceitfulness of sin," it's about failure to enter full-time salvation rest in the work of Jesus Christ (just as Israel failed to enter Canaan rest), rather than rest in one's own works of the law to save, it's about failure to remain in gospel rest for salvation and returning to the law.

The deceitfulness of sin (1John3:4 James 2:11) is thinking one is not breaking God's commandments, when they are. Like coming up with creative ways not to obey one of God's commandments the way He said, and then trying to convince oneself its coming from God. Why its so deceitful. It sounds good to the ears. What we were warned would happen 2 Tim 4:3-4

Hebrews 4 and 3 is quoting OT. Joshua nor David rebelled against God and changed God's Sabbath. Neither did the author of Hebrews 20 years after the Cross. He said not to follow in the same path of those in the trial of the wilderness who did just that- rebelled in particular against God's Sabbath. Heb 4:6,11 Eze 20:13 which has never worked out for anyone in Scripture ever. I do not believe God changes, or the result will be any different Eze22:26 Mat7:21-23

 

[Clare73]

The deceitfulness of sin (1John3:4 James 2:11) is thinking one is not breaking God's commandments, when they are. Like coming up with creative ways not to obey one of God's commandments the way He said, and then trying to convince oneself its coming from God. Why its so deceitful. It sounds good to the ears. What we were warned would happen 2 Tim 4:3-4

Hebrews 4 and 3 is quoting OT. Joshua nor David rebelled against God and changed God's Sabbath. Neither did the author of Hebrews 30 years after the Cross, tells us to either. He said not to follow in the same path of those in the trail of the wilderness who did just that- rebelled. Heb 4:6,11 Eze 20:13

Read it again. . .

Heb 3 and 4 are not about the "decietfulness of sin," rather Heb 3:7-4:11 is about failure to enter full-time (Heb 4:4) salvation rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ (just as Israel failed to enter Canaan rest), rather than relying on one's own works of the law to save. . .it's about failure to remain in gospel rest for salvation and returning to works of the law for salvation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Read it again. . .

Heb 3 and 4 are not about the "decietfulness of sin," Heb 3:7-4:11 is about failure to enter full-time (Heb 4:4) salvation rest in the work of Jesus Christ (just as Israel failed to enter Canaan rest), rather than relying on one's own works of the law to save, it's about failure to remain in gospel rest for salvation and returning to works of the law for salvation.

When did God rest? Should I believe you or God? He tells us when He rested, on the seventh day. Heb4:4 Exo20:11 Gen 2:1-3 Same day we are to, if we are to enter His rest Heb4:10. Heb4:4 does not have full-time anywhere in that verse- you are adding your words to God's word Pro30:5-6 nor is the seventh day anything but what God of the Universe said it was His Sabbath, Exo 20:10 His and the holy day of the Lord, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13

Our words are not sanctifying or saving John17:17

I am sticking with what God said, but we have free will.

Not going to respond further as all you will do is paste copy the same thing as if its going to change God's Testimony Heb4:4 Exo20:11 Gen 2:1-3

Be well.

 

[Clare73]

When did God rest? Should I believe you or God? He tells us when He rested, on the seventh day. Same day we are to, if we are to enter His rest Heb4:10 Heb4:4 does not have full-time anywhere in that verse- you are adding your words to God's word Pro30:5-6 which is not sanctifying or saving John17:17

I am sticking with what God said,

Then you should be sticking with Heb 3:7-4:11.

God's word does not end at Mal 4:6, it also includes Heb 3:7-4:11 (as well as all the NT) which is about failure to enter full-time (Heb 4:4) salvation rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ (just as Israel failed to enter Canaan rest), rather than relying on one's own works of the law to save. . .it's about failure to remain in gospel rest for salvation and returning to works of the law for salvation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Heb 4:4 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

God never rested 7 days a week, He worked six days- making the heavens and earth and rested the seventh day- exactly what Heb 4:4 says. It does not have the word full-time anywhere in the verse, We are warned plainly about adding to God's word

Pro 30: 6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Heb4:4 is referring back to Mt Sinai when God spoke Exo20:1 His commandments and the seventh day was spoken of in this way

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

How many times does God have to repeat Himself for one to believe Him at His plain words. Its when we think our words are equal or greater than God, I do not believe that is going to workout so well, it is breaking the very first commandment to have no other gods before Me.