Israel and the New Covenant.

[Hentenza]

Still no Scripture about Jesus saying He changed His Sabbath. I know because it’s not there, it would make God break His promise Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 which He doesn’t.

I am going to move on, i think we have exhausted this. I am okay agreeing to disagree. God will sort this out in His own time.

I wish you well.

Still no evidence that the law was given before Moses and still no scripture that the 4th commandment is commanded post crucifixion to the Christian. However, Jesus did say that He was taking over the 4th commandment and the rest of the law. You would think that if it was that important it would be all over the place but is not.

 

[ralliann]

Still no evidence that the law was given before Moses and still no scripture that the 4th commandment is commanded post crucifixion to the Christian. However, Jesus did say that He was taking over the 4th commandment and the rest of the law. You would think that if it was that important it would be all over the place but is not.

The council decided that Gentiles were to keep the law concerning gentiles as taught in the synagogue from old time. Any Gentile could go into any synagogue today and find out what that is. Noachide law. Abraham was considered a Noachide the first 75 years of his life, until he was called to become a father to the jews (circumcision). I just read this on aish, this morning

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Still no evidence that the law was given before Moses and still no scripture that the 4th commandment is commanded post crucifixion to the Christian. However, Jesus did say that He was taking over the 4th commandment and the rest of the law. You would think that if it was that important it would be all over the place but is not.

Does God have to repeat Himself for one to obey Him? Do you apply this same standard to everyone of the Ten Commandments or just the Sabbath? If not repeated during a certain timeframe, we can profane it- reminds me of the golden calf story. It’s a weird standard, not one found in Scriptures. Jesus in His own words said it started at creation as it was made for man Mark 2:27 when was man made? The sixth day of Creation right before the first Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11. Man is made in the image of God. When God rested at Creation, did Adam and Eve rebel and not spend the first Sabbath resting with. God? Jesus in His own words said the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful at least 40 years after the Cross Mat 24:20 so not something ratified at the cross as many teach. The Lord says the Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth Isa 66:23. I think He would know more than us. He did tell us though so I believe its a matter of faith Psa 89:34 Mat5:18

 

[Hentenza]

The council decided that Gentiles were to keep the law concerning gentiles as taught in the synagogue from old time. Any Gentile could go into any synagogue today and find out what that is. Noachide law. Abraham was considered a Noachide the first 75 years of his life, until he was called to become a father to the jews (circumcision). I just read this on aish, this morning

The 4th commandment is not part of the noachide law so the argument is mute. In addition Romans 5:13-14 already tells us that there was no law until Moses.

 

[Hentenza]

Does God have to repeat Himself for one to obey Him?

Look, I can see all other 9 commandment explicitely and implicitly being given to the Christian in the new covenant. There is no explicit or implicit verse in the NT commanding the Christian to keep the 4th commandment. Christ totally fulfilled it.

Do you apply this same standard to everyone of the Ten Commandments or just the Sabbath? If not repeated during a certain timeframe, it disappeared. It’s a weird standard, not one found in Scriptures. Jesus in His own words said it started at creation as it was made for man Mark 2:27 when was man made? The sixth day of Creation. Gen 1:26 In the image of God. Jesus in His own words said the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful at least 40 years after the Cross Mat 24:20 so not something ratified at the cross as many teach. The Lord says the Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth Isa 66:23. I think He would know more than us.

Matt. 24:20 says no such thing not even close.

 

[ralliann]

The 4th commandment is not part of the noachide law so the argument is mute. In addition Romans 5:13-14 already tells us that there was no law until Moses.

Yes there was.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
This was not law that imputed sin

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Law Abraham kept..... Imputed righteousness
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Not written for Abraham alone but also us.....
Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Look, I can see all other 9 commandment explicitely and implicitly being given to the Christian in the new covenant. There is no explicit or implicit verse in the NT commanding the Christian to keep the 4th commandment. Christ totally fulfilled it.

Matt. 24:20 says no such thing not even close.

Jesus telling His people to pray 40 years that the destruction of Jerusalem after His death , not be in the winter or on the Sabbath day is your version Jesus is telling His people that the Sabbath ended at the cross. So praying about not having destruction on the Sabbath day, one means Jesus didn‘t turn into a day and that it never ended. Changing His covenant after He died would require Jesus to die all over again and His death was once and for all. Why though faith, we should just believe Him at His word Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 and not try to tell God which of His commandments are moral and righteous and which ones are not. Taking out the 4th commandment, no one would know whose commandments they are, as it contains His signature and seal Exo 20:11. The other 9 commandments would be useless without the 4th, it gives the power to the other 9. Without God’s sanctification Eze 20:12 we can do nothing Isa 66:17

We are just going to have to wait until He comes back to sort this out . Our decisions at that time, will all be sealed Rev 22:11

 

[Hentenza]

Yes there was.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
This was not law that imputed sin

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Law Abraham kept..... Imputed righteousness
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Not written for Abraham alone but also us.....
Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

You missed Rom. 5:14.

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

bible.com

All that died between creation and Moses died because of imputed sin from original sin not because they were convicted by the law. Even on Gen 26:5 that you posted it tells you that there was no law to impute sin. Please read the verses again.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sin was imputed at the garden, why Adam and Eve lost their robe of righteousness, lost the right to eat from the tree of life, and were kicked out Eden guarded at the entrance by an angel so they could not come back in. Where there is no law, there is no sin Rom 4:15

All of that gets restored for His faithful Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 back to God’s perfect plan before sin hijacked the world.

 

[ralliann]

You missed Rom. 5:14.

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

bible.com

All that died between creation and Moses died because of imputed sin from original sin not because they were convicted by the law. Even on Gen 26:5 that you posted it tells you that there was no law to impute sin. Please read the verses again.

No did not miss that.
The death of all men
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. {the common … : Heb. as every man dieth }
30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

The common death of all men

Nu 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

Isreal was called out of Egypt to brings God's judgement upon the nations. They were to destroy them all in many cases

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

[Hentenza]

Jesus telling His people to pray that the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years after His death , not be in the winter or on the Sabbath day is your version Jesus is telling His people that the Sabbath ended at the cross. So praying about not having destruction on the Sabbath day, one means Jesus didn‘t turn into a day and that it never ended. Changing His covenant after He died would require Jesus to die all over again and His death was once and for all. Why though faith, we should just believe Him at His word Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 and not try to tell God which of His commandments are moral and righteous and which ones are not.

We are just going to have to wait until He comes back to sort this out . Our decisions at that time, will all be sealed Rev 22:11

There is nothing in the whole of Matthew 5 teaching any kind of time frame or sabbath keeping. All of the events foretold by Christ in this chapter have not yet happened. Jesus does not have to die again to become the Lord of the Sabbath nor does He have to die again for the believer to enter His rest. In addition, we have to be aware of Jewish customs and practices regarding the Sabbath. Jesus gave his warning to the disciples because of the possibility that Jewish people in Jerusalem and Judea would have prevented Christians from fleeing on the Sabbath. Note that the warning was given “to those who are in Judea” (verse 16), not to disciples in other parts of the world.

 

[Hentenza]

No did not miss that.
The death of all men
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. {the common … : Heb. as every man dieth }
30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

The common death of all men

Nu 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his! From Adam

Isreal was called out of Egypt to brings God's judgement upon the nations. They were to destroy them all in many cases

Ok so then explain what your argument is. I don’t see anything in your post that supports the law being in effect prior to Moses so please clarify. Thanks.

 

[Hentenza]

Sin was imputed at the garden, why Adam and Eve lost their robe of righteousness, lost the right to eat from the tree of life, and were kicked out Eden guarded at the entrance by an angel so they could not come back in. Where there is no law, there is no sin Rom 4:15

Right so there was no law in the garden. In fact their law was simply one, don’t eat from the tree of life which led to original sin which was the only imputed sin that caused the death of everyone until Moses.

All of that gets restored for His faithful Rev 22:14 back to God’s perfect plan before sin hijacked the world.

Nothing here about the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is nothing in the whole of Matthew 5 teaching any kind of time frame or sabbath keeping. All of the events foretold by Christ in this chapter have not yet happened. Jesus does not have to die again to become the Lord of the Sabbath nor does He have to die again for the believer to enter His rest. In addition, we have to be aware of Jewish customs and practices regarding the Sabbath. Jesus gave his warning to the disciples because of the possibility that Jewish people in Jerusalem and Judea would have prevented Christians from fleeing on the Sabbath. Note that the warning was given “to those who are in Judea” (verse 16), not to disciples in other parts of the world.

He is telling His people where to flee, if the Sabbath ended, there would be no point for His direction to His people and to pray for 30+ years after His cross, if He said the Sabbath ended. He of course did not.

Mat 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Mat 5:19 says not to break or teach others to break the least of His commandments and than quotes two right from the unit of Ten to know which ones He is talking about. They came in a unit of Ten, not 9. Nine is unbiblical number undoing what God placed together. Deut 4:13 Exo 23:28. Honestly, this is really saying one knows better than God, our Creator of everything Exo 20:11

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Rev 22:14 Nothing here about the law.

So God’s commandments are not His laws. And His laws are what you say they are not what He said, who personally wrote them and are under His mercy seat.

We truly cannot reason together. I need to move on, but I wish you well.

Take care

 

[Hentenza]

He is telling His people where to flee, if the Sabbath ended, there would be no point for His direction to His people .

Correction. He is telling the people of Judea where to flee. The people in Judea are the ones that need to pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath.

Mat 5:19 says not to break or teach others to break the least of His commandments and than quotes two right from the unit of Ten to know which ones He is talking about. They came in a unit of Ten, not 9. Nine is an un local number undoing what God placed together. Honestly, this is really saying one knows better than God.

This does not advance your argument. Nothing here about the 4th commandment required of the Christian.

 

[Hentenza]

So God’s commandments are not His laws. And His laws are what you say they are not what He said, who personally wrote them and are under His mercy seat.

There was no God given law in the garden other than not eating from the tree of life. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[ralliann]

Ok so then explain what your argument is. I don’t see anything in your post that supports the law being in effect prior to Moses so please clarify. Thanks.

Well God brought wrath on Soddom and Gomorrha.

Ge 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


It depends on how you read this..

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham finally get God down to ten righteous to spare the city.
We know only Lot and his daughters were saved.

What was the great cry? Great can mean "many". Crying to God. Was it the blood of the righteous that had been shed? That only 3 were left?

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }

Gods law is holy, just, and good. He judges the wicked. A very good thing.

 

[Hentenza]

Well God brought wrath on Soddom and Gomorrha.

Ge 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


It depends on how you read this..

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham finally get God down to ten righteous to spare the city.
We know only Lot and his daughters were saved.

What was the great cry? Great can mean "many". Crying to God. Was it the blood of the righteous that had been shed? That only 3 were left?

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }

But the law did not come until 430 years after Abraham (Gal. 3:17) so I’m still not sure what you are trying to say. I’m not trying to be dense but just want to reply to you properly.

 

[ralliann]

But the law did not come until 430 years after Abraham (Gal. 3:17) so I’m still not sure what you are trying to say. I’m not trying to be dense but just want to reply to you properly.

He said to Noah
120 years waiting while the ark was built before destruction Came
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
He said of Abraham
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The law 400 years later, waiting for the fullness of sin of the Amorites.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.