Israel and the New Covenant.

[Clare73]

What other faith is there?

Are you unaware of the "faith in God" of Orthodox Jews which excludes faith in Christ, thereby condemning them (Jn 3:18)?

 

[Clare73]

If you want to add something, that was not in your quote

Did faith in God "of Orthodox Jews" have to be in my quote for you to realize its bearing on the topic of "saving faith" being in Jesus Christ?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did faith in God "of Orthodox Jews" have to be in my quote for you to realize its bearing on the topic of "saving faith" being in Jesus Christ?

Do you really believe without you quoting John3:18 after the fact, I would have no idea what faith in Jesus is. One could always ask

The OP addresses faith in Christ. Wish it had been read would have cleared up the misunderstanding

This is not a fruitful discussion, so I am going to move on.

Take care

 

[Clare73]

What other faith is there? Where did I say I have a problem with John3:16 I hit reply to your post it wasn't there when I did so.

Looking for things to accuse others, is not a good look, not the spirit we want to follow. Rev12:10

Take care

The issue is your mispresentation of my post #157 in your post #158, by omitting part of my post #157.

You either omitted part of my post #157, or you didn't. . .the record is clear on the matter.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The issue is your mispresentation of my post #157 in your post #158, by omitting part of my post #157.

You either omitted part of my post #157, or you didn't. . .the record is clear on the matter.

It wasn’t there in the quote, when I replied as stated. You can tell it was edited after my reply to you by the period after faith.

Your original post I replied to

(Click on link below)
Clare73 said:
The only way we are part of God's Israel is through faith.

Your edited post
The only way we are part of God's Israel is through faith in Christ (Jn 3:18).

This has to be the craziest accusation I have experience on CF. Condemning someone of not re-reading your post after I replied and answered.

A more Christian approach would be to just ask or read the OP. I understand thats approach is not for everyone.

EDITED TO ADDRESS post 166:

Whereas you post #160 quoting my post #159, omitted "in Christ" from my post,

Nope, was not in the quote when I replied as seen from the link above. My post was not edited. Post 158.


Post in thread 'Israel and the New Covenant.'
Israel and the New Covenant.

and which has now been put back in your edit 5 minutes later.

A reply to the next post, not the same one, which one can clearly see if one wishes to follow this insane dialogue.

I feel like I am back in high school.

For the record:

Our faith is in Christ, we are grafted into Israel by faith in Christ. Our faith comes from Christ. I do not need to know this because someone posted it on the internet, I can read it in my Bible and why it’s reflected in the OP, that sadly was never read by my accuser.

Christ is the Vine, we are the branches and Gentiles are grafted into Christ or Israel (God's people) through faith

I am hoping to get back to the topic.

 

[Clare73]

What other faith is there?

Are you unaware of "faith in God" which denies Christ?

Where did I say I have a problem with John3:16

It's Jn 3:18.

I hit reply to your post it wasn't there when I did so.

My post doesn't appear in parts when I hit "Post reply."

It's either all there, or nothing is there.
And my post #159, following, shows no edit. . .it was all there when you hit "Post reply."

The only way we are part of God's Israel is through faith in Christ (Jn 3:18).

Whereas your post #160 quoting my post #159, above, omitted "in Christ" from my post, and which has now been put back in your edit of 5 minutes later.

Your omission in post #158 of "in Christ" in reposting my post #157 is demonstrated misrepresentation, where repentance is more called for than prayer.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes, Jesus is Lord OF the Sabbath, the Creator, not that He morphed into the Sabbath commandment or day i.e. creation. Doesn’t say anything that God changed the Sabbath. He already made His promises Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19 , its up to believe them or not

Actually, yes, Jesus fulfilled all of the law including the 4th commandment. It is important to understand what Jesus actually fulfilled. The 4th commandment the same as all other commandments were ritual in nature except that for Israel they were moral. All OT law could not exist without the foundation of the levitical priesthood (Heb. 7:11). The law was given on the basis of the Levitical priesthood. Without the levitical priesthood, there is no law and the entire existence of the levitical priesthood was ritual. They carried out all of the sacrifices and ceremonies demanded by the law, and infractions against the Ten Commandments were dealt with by the priesthood. In fact, they performed or administered all the laws and consequences for moral infractions done by the Israelites. They had to offer the blood sacrifices and perform the oversight over diseases and lead the nation in worship and thanksgiving and administer justice.

The writer of Hebrews continues in chapter 7 to teach what happens after the priesthood is changed. Jesus becoming our high priest changed the priesthood from the levetical priesthood to one of Christ as our priesthood. By necessity then, a change in the law also happens. There is a nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness. (As Paul teaches in Roman’s. 8). The law made nothing perfect.

“For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses said nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” For, on the one hand, there is the nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, there is the introduction of a better hope, through which we come near to God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 7:12-19 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the | New American Standard Bible - N

For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the

bible.com

So Christ indeed change the 4th commandment. Hebrews 4 is not teaching a Sabbath day but explains in detail that God set a different day because the seventh day brought no one rest Heb 4:1-3). Hebrews 4:9 is not talking about observing a day either. The Greek underlying the “sabbath rest for the people of God” is unique in the New Testament, sabbatismos. No other place in scripture is this word used. It means “a sabbath-like rest”, or “sabbathing”. It means the rest that comes from believing in Christ. It is not speaking of a day in any sense. It is referring to the new covenant fulfillment of the seventh day sabbath which is the “sabbath-like rest” that remains for a specific group of people those being “the people of God”. The people of God are all who believe. These are the ones who have passed from death to life (not a future hope but a present reality) as Jesus said in John 5:24.

The other argument that you make is that the 10 commandments are somehow different from the rest of the law simply because of the placement in the Ark and that one was written by Moses and the other by God. However, there is no such distinction in scripture. Whether God wrote it or Moses wrote it it was the law and Moses wrote it under the inspiration of God. Secondly, the law had a beginning, 430 years after Abraham and ended with Christ (Gal 3:17-21). In Luke 2 the fact that they are the same comes to light. Notice that in verse 22 the Law of Moses is quoted for the new born purification but on verse 24, regarding the ritual of the sacrifice, is according to the Law of the Lord. Both of these are rituals and Luke considers both to be without distinction. The Law of Moses is the Law of God.

“And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what has been stated in the Law of the Lord: “A pair of turtledoves or two young doves.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 2:22-24 And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “EVERY LORD | New American Standard Bible - NASB

And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “EVERY LORD

bible.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, yes, Jesus fulfilled all of the law including the 4th commandment. It is important to understand what Jesus actually fulfilled. The 4th commandment the same as all other commandments were ritual in nature except that for Israel they were moral.

You didn’t answer the question, Christ fulfilling the law does that mean we can worship other gods or steal from our neighbor. This is a yes or no question.

All OT law could not exist without the foundation of the levitical priesthood (Heb. 7:11). The law was given on the basis of the Levitical priesthood. Without the levitical priesthood, there is no law and the entire existence of the levitical priesthood was ritual. They carried out all of the sacrifices and ceremonies demanded by the law, and infractions against the Ten Commandments were dealt with by the priesthood. In fact, they performed or administered all the laws and consequences for moral infractions done by the Israelites. They had to offer the blood sacrifices and perform the oversight over diseases and lead the nation in worship and thanksgiving and administer justice.

The writer of Hebrews continues in chapter 7 to teach what happens after the priesthood is changed. Jesus becoming our high priest changed the priesthood from the levetical priesthood to one of Christ as our priesthood. By necessity then, a change in the law also happens. There is a nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness. (As Paul teaches in Roman’s. 8). The law made nothing perfect.

“For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses said nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” For, on the one hand, there is the nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, there is the introduction of a better hope, through which we come near to God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 7:12-19 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the | New American Standard Bible - N

For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the

bible.com

Lets read this in context…

The law of the priesthood had to change because it tells us in the context of Hebrews 7.

Heb 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law (Deut 31:24-26)), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


What law?

13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has [b]officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning [c]priesthood.

The ministration of the priesthood in the law of Moses came from the tribe of Levi because they were the only tribe that was faithful when Moses went up to receive God’s written covenant and Testimony.

Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, why it was necessary for the law to be changed the law of the priesthood since Jesus is our High Priest in the NEW Covenant. Ministering from the heavenly sanctuary, not an earthy one.

So Christ indeed change the 4th commandment. Hebrews 4 is not teaching a Sabbath day but explains in detail that God set a different day because the seventh day brought no one rest Heb 4:1-3). Hebrews 4:9 is not talking about observing a day either. The Greek underlying the “sabbath rest for the people of God” is unique in the New Testament, sabbatismos. No other place in scripture is this word used. It means “a sabbath-like rest”, or “sabbathing”. It means the rest that comes from believing in Christ. It is not speaking of a day in any sense. It is referring to the new covenant fulfillment of the seventh day sabbath which is the “sabbath-like rest” that remains for a specific group of people those being “the people of God”. The people of God are all who believe. These are the ones who have passed from death to life (not a future hope but a present reality) as Jesus said in John 5:24.

Hebrews was written 20-30 years after the Cross. It does not say Christ changed the Sabbath commandment anywhere in these verses. He would have to ratify His covenant all over again to do so.

What you quoted shows that the Sabbath remains for God’s people, just as God promised Psa 89:34 Mat5:18-19

Heb4:9 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

The rest in this verse means
sabbatismos = Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

No where does it say it means believing in Christ. It says the Sabbath rest (keeping) remains for the people of God. Just as Jesus said it would Mat 24:20 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 66:23

The other argument that you make is that the 10 commandments are somehow different from the rest of the law simply because of the placement in the Ark and that one was written by Moses and the other by God. However, there is no such distinction in scripture

So there are no distinctions between God and man? Man writing is the same as God writing? Inside the ark of the covenant under God’s mercy seat Exo 25:21 is the same outside the ark there as a witness against. Deut 31:24-26 God’s Testimony is the same as mans testimony? Exo 31:18 Gods work is the same as man’s work? Exo 32:16 I think we must have a different opinion of God and what distinctions mean.

These distinctions are clearly found in our Bibles.


Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 31: 18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

. Whether God wrote it or Moses wrote it it was the law and Moses wrote it under the inspiration of God.

All Bible is under the inspiration of God. But the God of the Universe set aside the Ten Commandment and wrote them Himself in the most awesome way and distinguished them by design from all other Laws. Only the Ten Commandments sits under His mercy seat Exo 25:21-22 in the Most Holy of God’s Temple and in heaven Heb 8:1-5 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 where justice and mercy will come together soon based on His standard, not the edited version by man He warned us about Dan7:25

Secondly, the law had a beginning, 430 years after Moses and ended with Christ (Gal 3:17-21).

The law that was added because of sin. The law of Moses- just read a few verses before Gal 3:10 its talking about the book of Law, what was set besides the ark of the covenant Deut 31:24-26, the Ten Commandments was inside the ark Exo 40:20

God said in the Ten Commandments they started at Creation Exo20:11 The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 they are all interconnected, you break one you break them all James 2:11-12

Without law there is no sin Rom4:15 Man was separated by God because of sin Isa 59:2 thats not the way we are going to be reconcile back to God Rev22:14

In Luke 2 the fact that they are the same comes to light. Notice that in verse 22 the Law of Moses is quoted for the new born purification but on verse 24, regarding the ritual of the sacrifice, is according to the Law of the Lord. Both of these are rituals and Luke considers both to be without distinction. The Law of Moses is the Law of God.

“And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what has been stated in the Law of the Lord: “A pair of turtledoves or two young doves.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 2:22-24 And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “EVERY LORD | New American Standard Bible - NASB

And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “EVERY LORD

bible.com

Yes, thats all in the law of Moses, there is no purification or animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:1-17

Jesus quoted honor thy father and mother from the Ten Commandments and called them the commandments of God Mat 15:3-14 Mat7:7-13 just as He did when He gave them Exo 20:6 Deut 4:13 there’s a distinction.

 

[Hentenza]

You didn’t answer the question, Christ fulfilling the law does that mean we can worship other gods or steal from our neighbor. This is a yes or no question.


Lets read this in context…

The law of the priesthood had to change because it tells us in Hebrews.

Heb 4:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law (Deut 31:24-26)), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


What law?

13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has [b]officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning [c]priesthood.

The ministration of the priesthood in the law of Moses came from the tribe of Levi because they were the only tribe that was faithful when Moses went up to receive God’s written covenant and Testimony.

Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, why it was necessary for the law to be changed the law of the priesthood since Jesus is our High Priest in the NEW Covenant. Ministering from the heavenly sanctuary, not an earthy one.

Again, you miss. It was the Levi who held the priesthood and it was the Levetical law that Jesus departed from because of their failure. You are missing the main point of this chapter. The law was indeed change by the new priest in the order of Melchizedek which is a Christophany. Melchizedek is unique in the Bible in that he is described as not having a mother or father, no genealogy, and neither beginning or ending (Heb. 4:3). This is Christ blessing Abraham. There was a change in the law when it was eternally removed from the Levi. The mention of Christ coming from Judah, a tribe that were never priests, clarifies that Christ priesthood is unique and eternal. This law no longer applies to the priesthood of Christ because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. I think you make things up as you go.

Hebrews was written 20-30 years after the Cross.
It does not say Christ changed the Sabbath commandment anywhere in these verses. He would have to ratify His covenant all over again to do so.

What you quoted shows that the Sabbath remains for God’s people, just as God promised Psa 89:34 Mat5:18-19

sabbatismos Means Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

No where does it say it means beliving in Christ. It says the Sabbath rest (keeping) remains for the people of God. Just as Jesus said it would Mat 24:20 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 66:23

Once again, the Greek word here, sabbatismos, does NOT occur anywhere else in scripture therefore is does NOT refer to the sabbath day. The definition is as follows:

σαββατισμός sabbatismós, sab-bat-is-mos'; from a derivative of G4521; a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):—rest.

Do you see the nuance?

Also, the rest that remains is NOT God’s rest but that of Christ. The day has been changed to ”TODAY“ and is no longer Saturday. Today we can enter His rest and rest of our works just like God did.

“For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience

bible.com

So there are no distinctions between God and man? Man writing is the same as God writing? Inside the ark of the covenant under God’s mercy seat Exo 25:21 is the same outside the ark there as a witness against. Deut 31:24-26 God’s Testimony is the same as mans testimony? Gods work is the same as man’s work? I think we must have a different opinion of God.

These distractions are clearly found in our Bibles.


Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 31: 18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.


All Bible is under the inspiration of God. But the God of the Universe set aside the Ten Commandment and wrote them Himself in the most awesome way and distinguished them by design from all other Laws. Only the Ten Commandments sits under His mercy seat Exo 25:21-22 in the Most Holy of God’s Temple and in heaven Heb 8:1-5 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 where justice and mercy will come together soon based on His standard, not the edited version by man He warned us about Dan7:25

The law that was added because of sin.

God said the Ten Commandments started at Creation in the Ten Commandments Exo20:11

Yes, thats all in the law of Moses, there is no purification or animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:1-17

Yes quoted honoring thy father and mother from the Ten Commandments and called them the commandments of God Mat 15:3-14 Mat7:7-13 the distinctions.

The rest of this is non responsive. Nothing here addresses my post. Nothing new.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, you miss. It was the Levi who held the priesthood and it was the Levetical law that Jesus departed from because of their failure. You are missing the main point of this chapter. The law was indeed change by the new priest in the order of Melchizedek which is a Christophany. Melchizedek is unique in the Bible in that he is described as not having a mother or father, no genealogy, and neither beginning or ending (Heb. 4:3). This is Christ blessing Abraham. There was a change in the law when it was eternally removed from the Levi. The mention of Christ coming from Judah, a tribe that were never priests, clarifies that Christ priesthood is unique and eternal. This law no longer applies to the priesthood of Christ because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. I think you make things up as you go.

I wasn’t missing any of this. But you were originally talked about the law needing to change which is the law of the priesthood, so I was providing the context why it had to be changed because Jesus didn’t come from the tribe of Levi, which is what was written in the law of Moses it had to come from, Jesus came from Judah, hence why the priesthood law had to change so Jesus could be our High Priest in the NC.

Once again, the Greek word here, sabbatismos, does NOT occur anywhere else in scripture therefore is does NOT refer to the sabbath day. The definition is as follows:

Yes, but that doesn’t change its meaning. Most of the time they were talking about the Sabbath. In this instance its Sabbath-keeping, why its a different name in the Greek.

σαββατισμός sabbatismós, sab-bat-is-mos'; from a derivative of G4521; a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):—rest.

This is the figurative meaning, not the literal. I do believe there is also a figurative meaning as well. In God’s heavenly rest, there is no disobedience or rebellion to Him or His commandments, just peace Isa 48:18 Sin is unrest and we see this contrast in Rev 14:11-12.

But that doesn’t delete the fact the literal meaning as shown, means keeping the Sabbath which remains for God’s people which keep in harmony of God’s promise Psa89:34 Mat5:19.

Also, the rest that remains is NOT God’s rest but that of Christ.

So God is not Christ and Christ is not God. There is no dichotomy between God and Christ. This is a strange argument.

The day has been changed to ”TODAY“ and is no longer Saturday. Today we can enter His rest and rest of our works just like God did.

There is no Scripture that says this. It says clearly TODAY if you hear His voice don’t harden your heart as in the rebellion

Heb 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which is repeating what he said is Heb 3:7-19 and really repeating what David said in Psa 95.


Heb 95:7 Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the [c]rebellion,
As in the day of [d]trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was [e]grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

Nothing about today is no longer Saturday. Not sure where you got that from but its not in the Text.

God said when is the Sabbath written and spoken by God plainly Exo20:10 we either believe Him or we don’t and believe when He said He would not alter His words Psa89:34. If we don’t build our foundations around what the God of the Universe said, we are told to live By Mat4:4 I am afraid we are building our house on sand.

This warning is exactly what people are doing today Eze20:13 Heb4:11

“For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience

bible.com

Yes, nothing at all about Today being the Sabbath, the Sabbath no longer the seventh day, Jesus is the Sabbath commandment therefore we can profane God’s Sabbath and holy day. These are all made up ideas and nothing the Text says. I would be happy to go though each verse with you line by line, if I felt it would make a difference. Nothing is going to convince you we should keep the Sabbath, thats okay, it’s a choice. For me, I do not see anywhere in Scripture the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated. Not by God, not by Jesus who is God made flesh. God blessed, man can’t reverse Numbers 23:20 God said Remember- man says forget. I am sticking with what He said and have faith He wrote all Ten Commandments of His covenant in my heart not forgetting the one commandments He said Remember and is holy, blessed, sanctified by God, kept by Jesus Luke4:16 John15:10 who is my (any should be everyone’s) example to follow 1 Peter 2:21-22 1John2:6,

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The Ten Commandments is a standalone unit. Not written by man- written by God. What was placed inside the ark under His mercy seat Exo 25:21 Exo 40:20


Exo 34: 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

No more was added to the Ten Commandments

Deut 5:22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Its Gods Testimony, not Moses and our perfect God wrote a perfect Law- how could He not.

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

The law of Moses was added because of transgression placed outside the ark of the covenant as a witness against as it held all the curses for breaking God's laws Deut 31:24-26. God gave Moses the other laws, and of course the law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments because God's saints (saved) keep God's commandments Rev 14:12

The law can't save us as we have all sinned and broke God's laws. The law shows us what is right and wrong Psa 119:172 and shows us our sins Rom 3:20 Rom7:7 and shows we need a Savior. The law points us to Christ and though Him and our love and faith we can keep the commandments John 14:15-18 abiding in Him John15:10. That said no one is saved in their sins Pro28:13 Heb10:26-30 We need a conversion in Christ turning from our old ways of sin, living a new life of Christ having our Fathers laws written in our hearts and minds, keeping them because of our great love of Him, and through His power

The commandments are kept as a result of salvation, not a means to it.

Rev 14:12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

This is the faith that reconciles us

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Ok, so the 10 commandments are kept when one is filled with His Holy Spirit , the promise given to each and every believer that ,He will make His Home in them. So if one chooses to not observe the Jewish ritual of resting on Saturday Sabbath but keep the rest of tve 10, that person does not walk in the Spirit therefore , not saved?
Would it be at all possible that His Holy Spirit does not direct the believer to keep Saturday Sabbath but keep everyday alike?

 

[Delvianna]

The Jews wanted to interpret God's laws and turned it into hundreds of extra rules which is why they accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath by healing people. When I read the rest of the replies and the nit-pick arguments over the sabbath and does this fit, or does this make you unsaved, you're missing the entire point... If you're looking for nuance arguments into what God established and if someone is going to hell because they didn't follow the right sabbath day, no one is going to have an answer for you when God is the judge. But everyone holds an account for themselves at the end of the day. If you want to try and find loop holes so you can sin, then that is entirely up to you, but there are too many verses that say to follow his commandments at the end of the day.

Are you guys so anti trying to do whats right because you'd rather make your life easier and live in sin? Are you the type of person, that if your country just got rid of the laws, would start going out and stealing and killing now? Do you not care about what God thinks when you KNOW he hates sin so much to the point that he's destroyed cities and flooded the entire world for it but that doesn't matter to you because "Grace"?

This is not about being self-righteous, this is about when you decided to follow Jesus, decided to learn from him, which means you are supposed to follow in his foot steps.

Ephesians 5:1-2​

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. ​

Do you imitate Christ? Do you strive to be more like him everyday? Do you tell others to do the same? If the answer is yes, then at the day of the day regardless if I'm right or you're right, at least we're both doing what we should be doing. If the answer is no, then can you really call yourself a "follower" of Christ, if you don't "follow" his teachings or instructions? Regardless if it's required for salvation or not?

You get married and your spouse comes to you and says, "you really hurt my feelings yesterday, please don't do that again because it hurt". Do you go, "nah its fine, you'll forgive me and I'll just keep doing it anyway..." or do you actually listen to your spouse because you love them? Why is God any different?

Arguing that you can sin and it doesn't matter is literally arguing to continually hurt Gods feelings on a regular basis.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, so the 10 commandments are kept when one is filled with His Holy Spirit , the promise given to each and every believer that ,He will make His Home in them.

No one can keep God’s commandments in human effort. Why the first covenant failed so quickly it was based on the people doing Exo 19:8 They can only be kept though the power of the Holy Spirit. We however have to invite Him in to do so, through love and faith.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Not everyone is in the New Covenant, because they have harden their hearts, why the Holy Spirit calls on us daily if we hear His voice Heb3:7-19 its why not being subject to God’s laws is a dangerous place to be imo Rom8:7-8

So if one chooses to not observe the Jewish ritual of resting on Saturday Sabbath but keep the rest of tve 10, that person does not walk in the Spirit therefore , not saved?

The Sabbath started at Creation when there was just God and man Exo 20:11, made for man Mark 2:27. The word Jesus used means mankind in Greek, Adam in Hebrew. There is no such thing as the Jewish Sabbath- just want to get that out of the way. God claimed the Sabbath as My holy day, the Holy day of the Lord thy God Isa 58:13 meaning there is only one.

I do believe the Jews in the Bible were not keeping the Sabbath the way God intended- to be a delight Isa 58:13-14 they made it a burden adding so many rules that was never intended for the Sabbath. It’s a celebration of Creation and God’s sanctification and resting in Christ spending quality time on the day God set aside from Creation. The only day He sanctified and He wants to bless Isa 56:1-2 and sanctify us Eze 20:12 because we can’t do this ourselves Isa66:17 we need God.

I do not believe God seperated the 4th commandment from the other 9 commandments the way man has. The 4th commandment is the one commandment that has God’s seal and signature Exo20:11 and I believe what gives the power to keep the other 9 commandments, but thats getting a bit off topic. I can go deeper into this later if you want.

in Scripture we are told breaking one commandment, we break them all James 2:10-11 as they are all interconnected. I’ll give you an example

Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

You break the commandment for coveting it is also breaking the commandment for idolatry and breaking the first commandment of not having any other gods before Me.

God said when we don’t keep the Sabbath it profanes Him Eze22:26 and we are elevating something else in the place of what God deemed holy and is a commandment of God. This breaks a lot of commandments.

Would it be at all possible that His Holy Spirit does not direct the believer to keep Saturday Sabbath but keep everyday alike?

No, I believe there is a real spiritual war. The Holy Spirit will never lead one away from God’s commandments Isa 8:20. Romans 14 the verse you are implying is not about the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath wasn’t mentioned once in this whole chapter and it’s referring to what man esteems not God. It would be like us debating over Christmas and Easter. Nothing to do with THE holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa58:13

I hope this helps. I appreciate the questions.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

No one can keep God’s commandments in human effort. Why the first covenant failed so quickly it was based on the people doing Exo 19:8 They can only be kept though the power of the Holy Spirit. We however have to invite Him in to do so, through love and faith.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Not everyone is in the New Covenant, because they have harden their hearts, why the Holy Spirit calls on us daily if we hear His voice Heb3:7-19 its why not being subject to God’s laws is a dangerous place to be imo Rom8:7-8


The Sabbath started at Creation when there was just God and man Exo 20:11, made for man Mark 2:27. The word Jesus used means mankind in Greek, Adam in Hebrew. There is no such thing as the Jewish Sabbath- just want to get that out of the way. God claimed the Sabbath as My holy day, the Holy day of the Lord thy God Isa 58:13 meaning there is only one.

I do believe the Jews in the Bible were not keeping the Sabbath the way God intended- to be a delight Isa 58:13-14 they made it a burden adding so many rules that was never intended for the Sabbath. It’s a celebration of Creation and God’s sanctification and resting in Christ spending quality time on the day God set aside from Creation. The only day He sanctified and He wants to bless Isa 56:1-2 and sanctify Eze 20:12 because we can’t do this ourselves Isa66:17 we need God.

I do not believe God seperated the 4th commandment from the other 9 commandments the way man has. The 4th commandment is the one commandment that has God’s seal and signature Exo20:11 and I believe what gives the power to keep the other 9 commandments, but thats getting a bit off topic. I can go deeper into this later if you want.

in Scripture we are told breaking one commandment, we break them all James 2:10-11 as they are all interconnected. I’ll give you an example

Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

You break the commandment for coveting it is also breaking the commandment for idolatry and breaking the first commandment of not having any other gods before Me.

God said when we don’t keep the Sabbath it profanes Him Eze22:28 and we are elevating something else in the place of what God deemed holy and is a commandment of God. This breaks a lot of commandments.


No, I believe there is a real spiritual war. The Holy Spirit will never lead one away from God’s commandments Isa 8:20. Romans 14 the verse you are implying is not about the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath wasn’t mentioned once in this whole chapter and it’s referring to what man esteems not God. It would be like us debating over Christmas and Easter. Nothing to do with THE holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa58:13

I hope this helps. I appreciate the questions.

Thanks!