How to Respond to the Cross-Dressing Man at Mass? DIFFICULT MORAL QUESTIONS: What we do and what we tolerate both witness to what we believe.

[Cosmic Charlie]

It's a sin because it's a sexual fetish, deviant.

Um........

......that statement is, at best, an ill-informed and at worst slanderous.

Can cross-dressing be a fetish? Yes.

It is always (or for that matter even usually) No.

A citation on the matter:

Dressing as a Woman: A Catholic Perspective on Morality and Context – Catholic Online News

catholiconline.news

The "pearl clutching" phrase is so passé, BTW.

Ok,

I will correct it.

Thank you

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Who do we throw out of a church because we don't like the way they are dressed ?

Ok, the wife beater T is a bit much, but this guy makes it work An old man in Rome trying to stay cool

Marline and Kate

Ooo..... I found one more I HAVE to post (I'm a sucker for the "Anne Hall" look)

 

[Michie]

Q. I was recently at a Mass that was attended by many young families and their children. It was also attended by a young man who came dressed in women’s clothes and received Holy Communion. What should the response be from a parishioner who witnesses such a thing? More importantly, what should be the pastor’s response? Even if the young man received sacramental confession before Mass, wouldn’t this still be an issue?

A. After examining reasons why such incidents are so harmful, I will consider the question from three perspectives: the young man himself presenting himself for Holy Communion, the other parishioners, and the parish priest.

Where’s the Harm?​

What is harmful about this young man presenting himself publicly for Holy Communion while presenting himself as a woman? I’ll focus on four harms: confusing the young, scandalizing the weak, discouraging and alienating the faithful, and harming himself.

First, the young are especially vulnerable to confusion by the errors of gender ideology, especially young men and women who themselves suffer from confused feelings about their bodies.

Continued below.

How to Respond to the Cross-Dressing Man at Mass?

DIFFICULT MORAL QUESTIONS: What we do and what we tolerate both witness to what we believe.

www.ncregister.com

So this is way off the rails of what the op was talking about on one presents themselves for communion and the witness it gives. So I’ll just refresh on what the thread is about.
*****************************
We don’t want to underestimate how confusing disordered expressions of sex and gender can be for children, even young children. A devout Catholic friend’s 5-year-old daughter recently said she wanted her two Barbies to “play marriage.” When her mother said that marriage between two girls is impossible, that only a boy and girl can get married, the little girl pushed back and started to cry, insisting, “Well, Jacob [the neighbor who has lesbian ‘parents’] has two mommies.”

Second, related to the problem of confusionis the even more serious problem of scandal. Permitting this man to receive Holy Communion could lead vulnerable people into sin. Seeing him approach the altar might lead some to rationalize or deceive themselves into supporting the falsehoods of gender ideology. They might think to themselves that since the Church is tolerant of this kind of behavior, it is therefore okay for them to express their confused feelings similarly or to approve of the decisions of others to self-identify with a gender not corresponding to their biological sex.

Third, this man’s example might alsodiscourage and alienate the faithful who believe — frequently for good reasons — that Catholic pastors are not strong enough in their opposition to evils that threaten the faith and life of Catholics. They might think their pastors are wrongfully uncritical or even supportive of gender ideology.

This could cause them to leave the Catholic Church for faith communities they deem to be more doctrinally orthodox — I know multiple people who have left the Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy under similar circumstances — or it might drive them into canonically irregular groups such as the SSPX.

Finally, although we do not know the young man’s culpability, his decision to approach Holy Communion, if left unquestioned by the pastor, may result in the young man himself believing the Church is tolerant of gender ideology. This could entrench him more deeply in his confused thinking and open him to further and more extreme behavior associated with his gender confusion

The Young Man’s Perspective

The first responsibility here rests with the young man himself. Catholic teaching is clear that someone conscious of grave sin should not, unless he has a very serious reason, present himself for Holy Communion without first receiving sacramental confession. (And if there is a serious reason, he is obliged to make an act of perfect contrition, which includes the resolution of confessing his sin in the sacrament as soon as reasonably possible.)

However, this young man may not be conscious that something is morally wrong with receiving Communion while representing himself as a woman. We do not know and cannot judge whether he is culpable for any serious sin associated with his gender-confused behavior. I think that when we — the lay faithful — witness disturbing situations such as this one, we ordinarily ought to operate on the assumption that the person in question has a blameless erroneous conscience and thus is ignorant of wrongdoing. I do not mean we should assume he is unaware that he is doing something provocative, only that he is unaware that his behavior is gravely sinful.

You also mention the possibility that this young man went to confession before Mass. If he did, then his conscience may be clear as he approaches Holy Communion.

But although we cannot judge the culpability of his conscience, we can judge that he is doing something objectively disordered in representing himself as a woman. By presenting himself in a manner contradictory to his biological sex, he both demonstrates that he has been influenced by harmful gender ideology and he contributes to the public validation of the false claims of that ideology. Whether or not he is sinning by doing so, he is still doing something harmful to himself and to those around him.

Parishioners’ Perspective

Since it is unlikely to help the situation, I think parishioners ordinarily should not approach the young man in order to correct his behavior. This might be different if someone has a prior relationship with him, which would provide a safe context for raising the issue. The pastor has the primary responsibility for addressing this confusing situation.

It is quite proper for parishioners to be concerned, and those so inclined should speak with their pastors about it. If they do, they should respectfully explain what they witnessed and provide reasons why what they witnessed raises serious concerns for the welfare of those present, including the young man himself. If they do not find redress from their pastors, they should inform their bishop.

Priest’s Perspective

Priests, as a general rule, should instruct gender-confused persons not to present themselves publicly for Holy Communion dressed in the clothing of the opposite sex. This is for two reasons.

First, it is to protect the spiritual welfare of the persons themselves. I said above that those witnessing a spectacle of this sort should operate on the assumption that the person has a blameless erroneous conscience. I do not think, however, that this is an adequate rule for priests to use in assessing who may be admitted to Holy Communion.

A priest may think it likely that the man has a blameless conscience. But given the man’s overt behavior, a priest cannot rule out the possibility that he is culpably rejecting perennial moral teachings of the Catholic faith. And if he is culpable, and a priest invites him to receive Jesus’ Body and Blood, this would be very harmful to the man’s spiritual welfare. (See St. Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 about those who eat and drink judgment upon themselves because they receive the Lord unworthily.)

If the young man has recently confessed, and a priest is convinced he is penitent for his sins but as yet is unready to make external changes, the priest should instruct him to come to him after Mass to receive the Eucharist privately.

The second reason to instruct the young man not to present himself publicly for Holy Communion is to protect others from the confusion, scandal and alienation we spoke about above. What we do and what we tolerate both witness to what we believe. Sometimes we become aware that our example (our action or failure to act) may give an ambiguous message on a matter of grave importance, in the case we are considering, a matter that bears upon both faith and morals. In these circumstances, we have an obligation to act to obviate this confusion.

In my judgment, the failure by clerics — including up to the highest levels of the Church — to protect Catholics from confusion, scandal and alienation that arise from an ambiguous public example, is one of the most serious pastoral problems of our time.

I don’t want to suggest that acting to obviate confusion is always easy. The fear of offending people or finding oneself in an ugly confrontation likely deters many from acting. Thus, we need to pray for our priests, that they inculcate with the help of grace the virtue of prudence to know when and how to act and the virtue of courage to be able to act.

Sacrifice Is Sometimes Necessary

Finally, faithful Catholics might be tempted to believe that loving and supporting those who suffer from gender confusion requires staying silent about their decision to present themselves in ways that contradict their biological sex. Such Catholics also, out of misguided notions of acceptance and inclusivity, or from fear of being called hateful or “transphobic,” might be tempted to refer to such persons by pronouns that conform to these people’s preferred gender identity even if it contradicts their biological identity.

Bishop Daniel Thomas of Toledo, Ohio, in his excellent pastoral letter on gender ideology, The Body Reveals the Person, says we must resist these temptations “even at the cost of considerable sacrifice.” Addressing the issue of pronouns, the bishop teaches:

The reason for refusing is that if we use such pronouns, we speak against the truth. We suggest that we do not think the body really reveals the person, and we fail to do what we can to protect people from the significant harms that gender ideology can inflict.

We have an obligation to be charitable toward those who suffer from gender confusion. But expressions of charity must not include watering down the truths of human identity, the holiness of the Eucharist, and the inappropriateness of presenting oneself for Communion while representing oneself as a member of the opposite sex.

If we fail at either task — at showing charity or defending the truth — we fail to uphold the good. And when we fail to uphold the good, we hurt people.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Who do we throw out of a church because we don't like the way they are dressed ?



Ok, the wife beater T is a bit much, but this guy makes it work An old man in Rome trying to stay cool

View attachment 371010View attachment 371011
View attachment 371012View attachment 371013
Marline and Kate
View attachment 371015
Ooo..... I found one more I HAVE to post (I'm a sucker for the "Anne Hall" look)
View attachment 371017

Is their intent to deceive people into believing they're the opposite sex?

 

[Chrystal-J]

This man is confused....

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

This man is confused....
View attachment 371028

I'm not going to address that but you have to admit, it a damn good look on him.

A German Volksmarch outfit

 

[Chrystal-J]

I'm not going to address that but you have to admit, it a damn good look on him.

If he was a Catholic school-girl.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

If he was a Catholic school-girl.

Huh…..

does it help if we change the styling on the kilt?

 

[Wolseley]

I'm not going to address that but you have to admit, it a damn good look on him.

A German Volksmarch outfit

More like Der Bund Deutscher Mädel.

 

[Wolseley]

Huh…..

does it help if we change the styling on the kilt?


View attachment 371045

If these guys really want to complete the look, then they need to ditch the shoes and socks, and switch to pantyhose and five-inch heels.

 

[Michie]

If he was a Catholic school-girl.

What Charlie is failing to mention is the culture and the witness it gives. In Germany, etc. Not a big deal. Other places, yes. Kilts or whatever the usual uniform is does not deny one’s gender. Those forms of dressing can be a manly form of dress depending on culture. Movie stars or fashion shots do not do that and it is not in the setting in the Church where appearance could cause scandal. Something completely different than what the op discusses. Again Charlie, thanks for the derail.

 

[Chrystal-J]

What Charlie is failing to mention is the culture and the witness it gives. In Germany, etc. Not a big deal. Other places, yes. Kilts or whatever the usual uniform is does not deny one’s gender. Those forms of dressing can be a manly form of dress depending on culture. Movie stars or fashion shots do not do that and it is not in the setting in the Church where appearance could cause scandal. Something completely different than what the op discusses. Again Charlie, thanks for the derail.

I agree. It's the intent behind the dressing that is important. If someone is trying to fool people that they are the opposite sex, then it's a grave sin.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

What Charlie is failing to mention is the culture and the witness it gives. In Germany, etc. Not a big deal. Other places, yes. Kilts or whatever the usual uniform is does not deny one’s gender. Those forms of dressing can be a manly form of dress depending on culture. Movie stars or fashion shots do not do that and it is not in the setting in the Church where appearance could cause scandal. Something completely different than what the op discusses. Again Charlie, thanks for the derail.

I agree. It's the intent behind the dressing that is important. If someone is trying to fool people that they are the opposite sex, then it's a grave sin.

I’m offended.

Genuinely, offended.

This isn’t X.

Or Facebook

Or Truth Social
Where algorithms and AI keep you intellectually and morally anesthetized in a feedback loop of like mindedness and bot created gimcrackery.

This, in case you’ve forgotten, is Christianforums. A bulletin board system of the type used on the Internet from a more enlighten incarnation.

Here, we exchange ideas and change minds. We challenge each other to think better and maybe make ourselves better people.

“Derail”? Hardly.

I’m just trying, in my own light hearted and distracting manner, to get people (not necessarily you, Mich, as I’ve always said I write for the lurkers, of which there are many more than actual content creators) to maybe think about their automatic assumptions. Maybe people who are different from you or who vote different from you or who dress different from you aren’t evil, or deceitful, or scum or whatever other uncharitable thing you can come up with.

They’re just different. And God made us all different. And He never made a mistake.

Tell me, chapter and verse, where in the Bible Christ ever said dressing unlike what is considered gender appropriate was sinful.

Cite, specific paragraph, where the CCC says a person has to be removed from a Mass due to clothing choice.

You and I both know there are none.

Why do you even care? Because you might have to explain to a child that people are different? Because it somehow offends you that these people exist? Because your Christianity doesn’t allow for people you deem off-putting ?

I choose not to buy into your “Oh this is so sexually fetish that they might as well be wearing nothing but leather chaps and a muscle shirt” sense of indignation. And I will not be part of a closed feedback loop, that allows you to just keep thinking that way unchallenged.

That’s not derailing. It’s correcting. (You should know MIch, you've corrected me often enough)

Christ gave us our marching orders on the Sermon on the Mount. Feed the hungry, Slack the Thirsty, Welcome the Stranger, Visit the Imprisoned.

He never mentioned sexuality or gender.

You have an issue with that, find a different Savior.

Hit me with your best shot, there’s people lurking.



And Crystal

No one is trying to deceive you. Trust me, no one dressed for you on Sunday.

They just wore what felt comfortable for them.

If you don’t like it, don’t look.

 

[Michie]

I’m offended.

Genuinely, offended.

This isn’t X.

Or Facebook

Or Truth Social
Where algorithms and AI keep you intellectually and morally anesthetized in a feedback loop of like mindedness and bot created gimcrackery.

This, in case you’ve forgotten, is Christianforums. A bulletin board system of the type used on the Internet from a more enlighten incarnation.

Here, we exchange ideas and change minds. We challenge each other to think better and maybe make ourselves better people.

“Derail”? Hardly.

I’m just trying, in my own light hearted and distracting manner, to get people (not necessarily you, Mich, as I’ve always said I write for the lurkers, of which there are many more than actual content creators) to maybe think about their automatic assumptions. Maybe people who are different from you or who vote different from you or who dress different from you aren’t evil, or deceitful, or scum or whatever other uncharitable thing you can come up with.

They’re just different. And God made us all different. And He never made a mistake.

Tell me, chapter and verse, where in the Bible Christ ever said dressing unlike what is considered gender appropriate was sinful.

Cite, specific paragraph, where the CCC says a person has to be removed from a Mass due to clothing choice.

You and I both know there are none.

Why do you even care? Because you might have to explain to a child that people are different? Because it somehow offends you that these people exist? Because your Christianity doesn’t allow for people you deem off-putting ?

I choose not to buy into your “Oh this is so sexually fetish that they might as well be wearing nothing but leather chaps and a muscle shirt” sense of indignation. And I will not be part of a closed feedback loop, that allows you to just keep thinking that way unchallenged.

That’s not derailing. It’s correcting. (You should know MIch, you've corrected me often enough)

Christ gave us our marching orders on the Sermon on the Mount. Feed the hungry, Slack the Thirsty, Welcome the Stranger, Visit the Imprisoned.

He never mentioned sexuality or gender.

You have an issue with that, find a different Savior.

Hit me with your best shot, there’s people lurking.



And Crystal

No one is trying to deceive you. Trust me, no one dressed for you on Sunday.

They just wore what felt comfortable for them.

If you don’t like it, don’t look.

You’ll get over it. You always come back for more. And- I don’t care who’s lurking. Is that supposed to be a threat or what? I’ve never called anyone scum or whatever you want to pull out of your hat this time. I post content for OBOB and other areas of the board to get Christian’s pov. If I wanted to hear your usual schtick I’d go to other sections of the board or open a local newspaper. The point is made clearly in the op. We all know you are the guy that likes to deflate instead of inflate. Instead you post fashion shoots and clothes from different cultures that are not considered gender bending. So yes, you did derail the point of the thread. You are not as charming as you think. And it is so old… I’d take you more seriously if this was not the same routine you always do and there was an ounce of sincerity in it. But I don’t see it. Never have.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I’m offended.

Genuinely, offended.

This isn’t X.

Or Facebook

Or Truth Social
Where algorithms and AI keep you intellectually and morally anesthetized in a feedback loop of like mindedness and bot created gimcrackery.

This, in case you’ve forgotten, is Christianforums. A bulletin board system of the type used on the Internet from a more enlighten incarnation.

Here, we exchange ideas and change minds. We challenge each other to think better and maybe make ourselves better people.

“Derail”? Hardly.

I’m just trying, in my own light hearted and distracting manner, to get people (not necessarily you, Mich, as I’ve always said I write for the lurkers, of which there are many more than actual content creators) to maybe think about their automatic assumptions. Maybe people who are different from you or who vote different from you or who dress different from you aren’t evil, or deceitful, or scum or whatever other uncharitable thing you can come up with.

They’re just different. And God made us all different. And He never made a mistake.

Tell me, chapter and verse, where in the Bible Christ ever said dressing unlike what is considered gender appropriate was sinful.

Cite, specific paragraph, where the CCC says a person has to be removed from a Mass due to clothing choice.

You and I both know there are none.

Why do you even care? Because you might have to explain to a child that people are different? Because it somehow offends you that these people exist? Because your Christianity doesn’t allow for people you deem off-putting ?

I choose not to buy into your “Oh this is so sexually fetish that they might as well be wearing nothing but leather chaps and a muscle shirt” sense of indignation. And I will not be part of a closed feedback loop, that allows you to just keep thinking that way unchallenged.

That’s not derailing. It’s correcting. (You should know MIch, you've corrected me often enough)

Christ gave us our marching orders on the Sermon on the Mount. Feed the hungry, Slack the Thirsty, Welcome the Stranger, Visit the Imprisoned.

He never mentioned sexuality or gender.

You have an issue with that, find a different Savior.

Hit me with your best shot, there’s people lurking.



And Crystal

No one is trying to deceive you. Trust me, no one dressed for you on Sunday.

They just wore what felt comfortable for them.

If you don’t like it, don’t look.

Like Michie said....trying to threaten us?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

You’ll get over it. You always come back for more.

I know.

it's a character flaw.

And- I don’t care who’s lurking.

You should, really, they are the people we most affect. Our posts are watched by many people, some have contacted me privately.

Is that supposed to be a threat or what?

.........huh? No, Threat? How?

I’ve never called anyone scum or whatever you want to pull out of your hat this time.

No, but others have and on this very subject.

I post content for OBOB and other areas of the board to get Christian’s pov. If I wanted to hear your usual schtick I’d go to other sections of the board or open a local newspaper.

I"m willing to defend the proposition that "my Shtick" is, in fact, Christian.

The point is made clearly in the op. We all know you are the guy that likes to deflate instead of inflate. Instead you post fashion shoots and clothes from different cultures that are not considered gender bending.

"Gender bending". I'll keep this one for the next time I need an example of uncharitable comments.

So yes, you did derail the point of the thread.

I think not. Again, I just flat refuse to buy into the mindset that you want to put forth as "Christian".

You are not as charming as you think.

I know.

Quick aside:
I've been shot at 3 times in my life. I consider it an indictment of my personality.

And it is so old… I’d take you more seriously if this was not the same routine you always do and there was an ounce of sincerity in it. But I don’t see it. Never have.

Well, I'm truly sorry about that but,

I don't write for you.

As I compose this response, there have been over 900 views on this thread, there are 36 comments. I'm writing for the 870 who lurked.


It's about changing minds, Mich. That's all.

And, thank God, I don't have to be charming, just effective.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Like Michie said....trying to threaten us?

No.

Of the many things I am trying to do, none of them is "threaten" you.

And I don't see how a reasonable person could feel threatened by having their ideas challenged.

All I wanted was for you or Mich to come back with a strong counterargument.

I was disappointed.

 

[Michie]

I know.

it's a character flaw.

You should, really, they are the people we most affect. Our posts are watched by many people, some have contacted me privately.

.........huh? No, Threat? How?

No, but others have and on this very subject.

I"m willing to defend the proposition that "my Shtick" is, in fact, Christian.

"Gender bending". I'll keep this one for the next time I need an example of uncharitable comments.

I think not. Again, I just flat refuse to buy into the mindset that you want to put forth as "Christian".

I know.

Quick aside:
I've been shot at 3 times in my life. I consider it an indictment of my personality.

Well, I'm truly sorry about that but,

I don't write for you.

As I compose this response, there have been over 900 views on this thread, there are 36 comments. I'm writing for the 870 who lurked.


It's about changing minds, Mich. That's all.

And, thank God, I don't have to be charming, just effective.

Have a blessed day.

We’ve all had PM’s Charlie. I have too. The way you wrote that post did appear as a threat. People lurk. Big news? I don’t think so. You have always defended this sort of thing even talking about a local drag queen hang out you liked to drink in. You can call your brand of Christianity Christian and I can post a Q and A thread explaining how the witness we give while attending Mass matter from a reliable Catholic source. I call that Christian too. You can post men from various countries wearing kilts, skirts or whatever and talk about what a good look it is on them. In those countries going to Mass in that attire does not give a confusing witness. Defend it all you want but it’s not the same thing. If you do not like my Christianity that’s on you bud. But do not ever infer I do not have empathy and compassion for those that struggle with these issues and do not ever infer that I have called these people scum. You can have your issues with the Church or whatever as you’ve boasted about for years but don’t you ever use your judgment against my faith. And do not ever insinuate that what I posted from a reliable source is not Catholic. You are accusing others of being very judgmental and I find you going above and beyond in that department. You are on your own road in your journey and I’m on mine. The OP clearly discusses those with gender dysphoria you attempted as you usually do to derail and act like you are taking the high road. Again, it smacks of insincerity because it’s been done by you for years. See ya Chuck.

 

[Michie]

No.

Of the many things I am trying to do, none of them is "threaten" you.

And I don't see how a reasonable person could feel threatened by having their ideas challenged.

All I wanted was for you or Mich to come back with a strong counterargument.

I was disappointed.

Because you need to find a different game to play. Been going on for years. Just because you claim Catholicism whether you practice it or not does not give you the green light to walk all over the faith. You want challenges, go to the secular part of the board and play with the big boys.

 

[Wolseley]

I’m offended.

Genuinely, offended.

Oh, come on, Charlie! Really?

I don't agree with you on three-quarters of what you post here, but even I would have thought you'd be above the "boo-hoo, poor me, I'm going to pout" elementary school-level mindset employed by the Woke Left these days....good Lord.

I read, hear, and see things every day that offend me, and offend me deeply---even disgust and repel me, coming from the progressive liberal side of the aisle, but I don't pout about it and expect the world to change its opinions because I'm offended. That's a load of baloney.