The Son of Man and the Throne Room

[Marilyn C]

Where did Jesus say what? What specifically are you denying Jesus said? Jesus commissioned his disciples to go 1st to the Jews in Israel. Paul reached out to the Jews 1st in exile.

I agree.

It's not the "Jews" you replace, but the nation Israel. They have a promised place among the Christian nations in history.

You're talking about spiritual unity and not political unity. The fact God promised Abraham "nations" indicates there must be political divisions in the current Church.

I don't agree. God made promises concerning both Israel and Jerusalem.


The existence of the earthly Jerusalem indicates its goal is to achieve what God promised Israel, a delivered and spiritually-revived Israel and Jerusalem. Currently, their spiritual counterpart is the Church in heaven, where Christ dwells until it is time to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

We all know that God did not come to save the Jews only. In fact, most of the Jews have been set aside for chastisement, due to the unbelief of the majority.

This does not mean God didn't promise Abraham a Jewish nation. He did. This is as important as it is for other nations to be included in this plan, as well.

Hi Randy,

Just a point to clarify here please. I believe God has a purpose for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. It seems to me that you are saying there are such a thing as a Christian nation? Is that correct? And can you give scripture please?

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

Just a point to clarify here please. I believe God has a purpose for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. It seems to me that you are saying there are such a thing as a Christian nation? Is that correct? And can you give scripture please?

Sure, I was just asked the same question on another forum. Here's how I replied....

"Abraham was promised "nations" in Gen 17. In the NT Scriptures that promise is reaffirmed, although obviously Christian nations had not yet evolved. What we do see is Jesus saying that the Kingdom of God (in its temporal form) would be taken from the nation Israel and given to another "nation" (the Roman Empire).

But you will read about "nations" several times in the book of Revelation, which was written even before there were Christian nations. Just because there were not yet Christian nations does not mean they weren't going to happen!

Rev 5.9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

Rev 7.9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

The person I was discussing this with believed that "nations" is purely a reference to the inclusion of different nationalities in the Church, which I suppose is a reasonable view. And it's certainly true that people from every nationality is included in the Church.

I just happen to think the word "nations" is involved in God's promise to Abraham to show concern not just for the individual soul, but also for the community. God cares not just about the health of one, but more, about our social and community health. God cares about things like crime, law, justice, and even recreation. In sum, God cares about societies and nations.

That's why I think God promised "nations" in the present age. It is a way of developing towards the New Jerusalem, just as God started with 12 tribes to build towards the nation Israel. Anyway, the simple mention of "nations" in the Abrahamic promise implies this for me. You certainly may see it otherwise, if you wish.

 

[Marilyn C]

Sure, I was just asked the same question on another forum. Here's how I replied....

"Abraham was promised "nations" in Gen 17. In the NT Scriptures that promise is reaffirmed, although obviously Christian nations had not yet evolved. What we do see is Jesus saying that the Kingdom of God (in its temporal form) would be taken from the nation Israel and given to another "nation" (the Roman Empire).

But you will read about "nations" several times in the book of Revelation, which was written even before there were Christian nations. Just because there were not yet Christian nations does not mean they weren't going to happen!

Rev 5.9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

Rev 7.9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

The person I was discussing this with believed that "nations" is purely a reference to the inclusion of different nationalities in the Church, which I suppose is a reasonable view. And it's certainly true that people from every nationality is included in the Church.

I just happen to think the word "nations" is involved in God's promise to Abraham to show concern not just for the individual soul, but also for the community. God cares not just about the health of one, but more, about our social and community health. God cares about things like crime, law, justice, and even recreation. In sum, God cares about societies and nations.

That's why I think God promised "nations" in the present age. It is a way of developing towards the New Jerusalem, just as God started with 12 tribes to build towards the nation Israel. Anyway, the simple mention of "nations" in the Abrahamic promise implies this for me. You certainly may see it otherwise, if you wish.

Hi Randy,

When Jesus said that the kingdom rule of God would be taken from those Pharisees etc and given to another, He was referring to the Israel when He comes, that they would receive Him and they would rule the nations.

The nations in revelation are either those who look after Israel or those who don`t. (Joel 3: 2)

Rev. 5: 9 is referring to those who were CALLED OUT of Israel and CALLED OUT of the Nations. They are called the Body of Christ.

Rev. 7: 9 the great multitude of the nations are those who turn to God OF the nations. They are NOT the Body of Christ.

God`s promise to Abraham concerning the nations means the nations NOT the Body of Christ. We are CALLED OUT of the Nations an entirely different group for ruling in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

When Jesus said that the kingdom rule of God would be taken from those Pharisees etc and given to another, He was referring to the Israel when He comes, that they would receive Him and they would rule the nations.

The nations in revelation are either those who look after Israel or those who don`t. (Joel 3: 2)

Rev. 5: 9 is referring to those who were CALLED OUT of Israel and CALLED OUT of the Nations. They are called the Body of Christ.

Rev. 7: 9 the great multitude of the nations are those who turn to God OF the nations. They are NOT the Body of Christ.

God`s promise to Abraham concerning the nations means the nations NOT the Body of Christ. We are CALLED OUT of the Nations an entirely different group for ruling in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)

My position is that God promised Abraham nations who generally hold to faith as a principle of their society--it obviously includes both people of faith and those who abandon that faith. I understand your own position, and it's respectable. It obviously is an issue that is not easily resolvable.

 

[Marilyn C]

My position is that God promised Abraham nations who generally hold to faith as a principle of their society--it obviously includes both people of faith and those who abandon that faith. I understand your own position, and it's respectable. It obviously is an issue that is not easily resolvable.

Yes, Randy, God promised Abraham NATIONs, however we, the Body of Christ are CALLED OUT OF the nations. We are a different group.

 

[Jan001]

Again, this was not relevant to the conversation we were having. We were talking about whether the Kingdom is already here or not, as I understood it. We were not discussing whether the Kingdom will come at all! All Christians believe there will be a New Earth, and that Christ's Kingdom will come to dominate it.

I don't think Jesus bodily returns to earth until his second coming. As soon as he, accompanied by his angels and saints, begins descending to earth, we who are on earth will rise up to meet him in the air, and then we all will accompany him to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the judgment of the sheep and goats.

Yes, that's what Paul taught. And we know that like Noah's Flood a final judgment by fire will purge the earth of Christ's enemies. That will happen simultaneously with the 2nd Coming. In other words, Christ cannot reign on earth until his enemies have been judged and removed.

You believe that Jesus will reign physically on earth forevermore? That his father' house will be brought to earth? Acts 7:49, John 14:2-4

Yes, that is my point. Christ's enemies are still in power, and they are not gradually being destroyed, but simply are being judged until final judgment falls.

There will be evil people and antichrists on earth until Jesus returns for his second coming.

 

[Jan001]

It's not the "Jews" you replace, but the nation Israel. They have a promised place among the Christian nations in history.

Old Israel was unique in that it had both a national religion and a national bloodline. However, it seems to me that because of its disobedience and rejection of its messiah, it will not ever regain its worldly standing. The Jews in power in Israel today are secular Jews. They do not have a divine right to the land.

Genesis 22:18
All the nations of the earth shall be blessed through your descendants, because you have obeyed my command.”

This does not mean God didn't promise Abraham a Jewish nation. He did. This is as important as it is for other nations to be included in this plan, as well.

The Jewish nation was relevant until Jesus died on the cross. Jesus (Messiah) was promised to Abraham for his descendants by blood first and then for Abraham's descendants by faith throughout the whole world.

Galatians 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free man, there is no longer male or female. For all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Now there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian and Scythian, slave and free man. Rather, Christ is all and in all.

 

[RandyPNW]

I don't think Jesus bodily returns to earth until his second coming. As soon as he, accompanied by his angels and saints, begins descending to earth, we who are on earth will rise up to meet him in the air, and then we all will accompany him to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the judgment of the sheep and goats.

I agree that Jesus physically returns at his 2nd Coming.

You believe that Jesus will reign physically on earth forevermore? That his father' house will be brought to earth? Acts 7:49, John 14:2-4

Yes, I believe Jesus remains a human forevermore, and will dwell with us on earth.

There will be evil people and antichrists on earth until Jesus returns for his second coming.

I agree that the present age is a rebellious age, and that many Antichrists have come and gone throughout the age. The final Antichrist will precede the 2nd Coming. In fact, the 2nd Coming will take place in order to defeat the Antichrist to make way for the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth forever.

 

[Jan001]

Yes, I believe Jesus remains a human forevermore, and will dwell with us on earth.

I think the faithful-until-death people will have their eternal dwelling place in Jesus' father's house in heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe [a] in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

 

[RandyPNW]

I think the faithful-until-death people will have their eternal dwelling place in Jesus' father's house in heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe [a] in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Please note what is said here in John 14. Jesus will "come again" to the earth. And so, it is on the earth that he will take his followers to himself, so that we may all be together on the earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Please note what is said here in John 14. Jesus will "come again" to the earth. And so, it is on the earth that he will take his followers to himself, so that we may all be together on the earth.

Hi Randy, So, on what scripture do you place that idea of `on` the earth.

 

[Apple Sky]

It may surprise some that Roman imperialism has continued in various forms all down through the NT age, from ancient Rome, to the French and German Empires, to Napoleon and Hitler, to Stalin and Putin. They have all aspired to recreate the glory of imperial Rome!

I totally agree.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiates 1:9.

 

[Jan001]

Please note what is said here in John 14. Jesus will "come again" to the earth. And so, it is on the earth that he will take his followers to himself, so that we may all be together on the earth.

At the time of his second coming, Jesus will bodily descend to earth for the sheep and goats judgment in the Kidron Valley, AKA the Valley of Jehoshaphat. Joel 3:12

This judgment cannot take place in the third heaven where the Father lives. Matthew 5:8

After this judgment, Jesus will hand his kingdom over to his Father. Matthew 25:31-46

1 Corinthians 15:22-25
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign (from heaven) until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 “For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection under him,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him.

Until Jesus returns to earth at his second coming, he will remain in heaven reigning over the earth from his throne until he destroys death forever with his bodily coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

I do not see that Jesus will ever rule bodily on the earth. John 8:23, John 18:36

Revelation 22:3-5 There shall no more be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall worship him; 4 they shall see his face, and his name shall be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall be no more; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Jan001]

....

"At hand" is not yet here. Jesus represented the Kingdom of God in temporal form when he exercised his earthly ministry. He made membership in the Kingdom of God possible following the Cross. He utilized the powers of the Kingdom as the future King over that coming Kingdom.

....

I don't think Jesus drank anything on the cross because they gave him vinegar.

Mark 14:25 I tell you the truth, I will not again drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Jesus drank the fruit of the vine on the cross. The kingdom of God began with the ratification of Jesus' new covenant sacrificial death on the cross.

Luke 17:20-21 Having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, saying, “The kingdom of God
will not come with observation. 21 Nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. We cannot see it with our bodily eyes.

Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus drinks the fruit of the vine immediately before he dies. This vinegar that he drank was made from sour grapes, which are the fruit of the grapevine.


John 19:29-30 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.