Pope Leo XIV comments on Cupich’s plan to bestow award on Senator Durbin

[Colo Millz]

Durbin has withdrawn from accepting the award.

But I find this response to be worrying, bordering on disastrous.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Durbin has withdrawn from accepting the award.

But I find this response to be worrying, bordering on disasterous.

Leo said something about how you aren't pro-life if you approve of the death penalty and you can't be pro-life if you don't have the correct opinion about immigration. Does the flip side of that mean that if one is pro-abortion they aren't pro-life either, EVEN if they have the correct opinion on immigration?

 

[zippy2006]

But I find this response to be worrying, bordering on disasterous.

I would say it's a great deal better than Francis.

 

[Learning always]

This seems to tell us that Pope Leo is not as traditional as he wanted us to believe.

 

[chevyontheriver]

This seems to tell us that Pope Leo is not as traditional as he wanted us to believe.

Considering who his electors were, it shouldn't surprise you. He isn't as bat crazy as Francis. He isn't Francis 2.0. But he sure ain't Pius XIII. Actually he hasn't done much to tell us who he really is. Some good, some bad, but mostly very minor stuff. I guess I am prepared, if that is even possible to be prepared for, for the worst, if he turns out to be a smarter and more savvy Francis after all.

 

[Learning always]

There is death penalty in Japan, Singapore and Indonesia for murder.
There is death penalty in Singapore and Indonesia for drug trafficking.
There is no death penalty in Australia. There is no death penalty in many American states.
Is death penalty anti-life ultimately??

Murder Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Murder Rate	Total Murders
Singapore	0.07	4 murders
USA	5.7	~19796
Australia	0.85	~226
Indonesia	0.3	847
Japan	0.23	289

Drug-Induced Death Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Drug Death Rate	Total Deaths
Singapore	0.26	Very low
USA	21.28	~71000 deaths
Australia	5.9–6.2	~1,600 deaths
Indonesia	0.38	Very low

 

[Gnarwhal]

There is death penalty in Japan, Singapore and Indonesia for murder.
There is death penalty in Singapore and Indonesia for drug trafficking.
There is no death penalty in Australia. There is no death penalty in many American states.
Is death penalty anti-life ultimately??

Murder Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Murder Rate	Total Murders
Singapore	0.07	4 murders
USA	5.9	~24,849 murders
Australia	0.85	~226 murders
Indonesia	0.3	<900
Japan	0.36	<500

Drug-Induced Death Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Drug Death Rate	Total Deaths
Singapore	Very low	Very low
USA	31.8 (2023)	105,007 deaths
Australia	5.9–6.2	~1,600 deaths
Indonesia	Very low	Very low

Not according to the Roman Catechism, which Clement XIII said was "far removed from every danger of error" (In Dominico Agro) and is the only catechism ever to be referred as such.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not according to the Roman Catechism, which Clement XIII said was "far removed from every danger of error" (In Dominico Agro) and is the only catechism ever to be referred as such.

Good to hear from you.

What people don’t get is that a death penalty should be very rare but in limited circumstances it may actual be needed. All the Francis stuff is confusion in moral thinking. JPII had it right. Francis was just confused, thinking he was advancing our understanding when he did the equivalent of a belly flop. Time to get back to a limited (severely limited OK) death penalty not for vengeance but for the protection of society.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Good to hear from you.

What people don’t get is that a death penalty should be very rare but in limited circumstances it may actual be needed. All the Francis stuff is confusion in moral thinking. JPII had it right. Francis was just confused, thinking he was advancing our understanding when he did the equivalent of a belly flop. Time to get back to a limited (severely limited OK) death penalty not for vengeance but for the protection of society.

Likewise.

Francis' confusion I believe was rooted in the Jesuit tendency towards a sort of "inverted moralistic thinking". They condemn the morally right things and celebrate the morally wrong things. Francis did this (remember "[trads] procreate like rabbits" for example?), James Martin does this with all his gay stuff, and others around the world do as well. In this argument here Francis was perhaps somewhat ignorantly dismissing the realities of evil by condemning the death penalty.

You have it right, that it should be avoided unless society would be in harms way by the offender in question remaining alive.

I get Francis' side of the argument, but it's sort of this utopic idealism that says in the 21st century we have so many different options for rehabilitation that something should fit every need out there. But the reality is there are going to be evil people out there who don't want to be fixed, and they'll do whatever they can—including faking rehabilitation—to continue spreading their evil through society.

 

[zippy2006]

Is death penalty anti-life ultimately??

If it is then Christian history and Hebrew Scripture is anti-life.

I get Francis' side of the argument, but it's sort of this utopic idealism...

That's right.

Throughout Christian history the death penalty has been discouraged but allowed. Reasons have varied, but that's the gist. JPII offered a new type of reasoning to justify that precedent, which is fine as far as it goes but I'm not sure how much weight his justification needs to be accorded in the historical schema.

"Death is the offspring of sin, and is therefore evil. We should avoid inflicting it where possible, but it is not always possible to avoid." -That's the perennial Christian doctrine. Kantians and personalists and Thomists and phenomenologists and New Natural Lawyers can all justify it with the reasoning they favor, but doctrinal precedent precedes all of the particular justifications, and forms of reasoning which contradict the historical-doctrinal precedent and the Scriptural precedent should not be given too much credence. Francis tried to shift the doctrine with a wave of his wand (as was his way), and we need not pay that superficial theology much mind.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If it is then Christian history and Hebrew Scripture is anti-life.


That's right.

Throughout Christian history the death penalty has been discouraged but allowed. Reasons have varied, but that's the gist. JPII offered a new type of reasoning to justify that precedent, which is fine as far as it goes but I'm not sure how much weight his justification needs to be accorded in the historical schema.

"Death is the offspring of sin, and is therefore evil. We should avoid inflicting it where possible, but it is not always possible to avoid." -That's the perennial Christian doctrine. Kantians and personalists and Thomists and phenomenologists and New Natural Lawyers can all justify it with the reasoning they favor, but doctrinal precedent precedes all of the particular justifications, and forms of reasoning which contradict the historical-doctrinal precedent and the Scriptural precedent should not be given too much credence. Francis tried to shift the doctrine with a wave of his wand (as was his way), and we need not pay that superficial theology much mind.

Exactly. I would be happy if no convicted felons were ever executed but on the other hand it is necessary to protect society from clear and present danger when such a convicted felon endangers others even from inside a prison. It DOES happen. I feel pope Francis had his rose colored glasses on and couldn’t see that. Rose colored glasses on immigration too. I had hoped pope Leo would have been more realistic. Maybe a bit more.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Try to keep in mind that the Catholic Population in the West makes up only 1/3 of Catholics. 2/3'ds live
in oppressive societies where the death penalty is abusively given for things like blaspheme.

So, when the Pope's speak against the death penalty, they know that their message goes out to all the
Catholic world and most aren't living in the west.

 

[zippy2006]

Try to keep in mind that the Catholic Population in the West makes up only 1/3 of Catholics. 2/3'ds live
in oppressive societies where the death penalty is abusively given for things like blaspheme.

So, when the Pope's speak against the death penalty, they know that their message goes out to all the
Catholic world and most aren't living in the west.

So your theory is that recent popes have opposed the death penalty because it is abused in non-Western countries? There is simply no evidence for such a theory.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

There is death penalty in Japan, Singapore and Indonesia for murder.
There is death penalty in Singapore and Indonesia for drug trafficking.
There is no death penalty in Australia. There is no death penalty in many American states.
Is death penalty anti-life ultimately??

Murder Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Murder Rate	Total Murders
Singapore	0.07	4 murders
USA	5.7	~19796
Australia	0.85	~226
Indonesia	0.3	847
Japan	0.23	289

ADrug-Induced Death Rates (per 100,000 people)​

Country	Drug Death Rate	Total Deaths
Singapore	0.26	Very low
USA	21.28	~71000 deaths
Australia	5.9–6.2	~1,600 deaths
Indonesia	0.38	Very low

There‘s a line from “The Underground Railroad“ that stuck with me:

Two escaped slaves were having a conversation about how European people treated blacks and native. One of them observes, “anything the tribes of Europe can’t control, they destroy“.

I look at this chart and observe the reason it’s being presented and maybe the above statement is correct. Maybe white peoples just have an ingrained passion for killing.

I mean, it’s possible.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There‘s a line from “The Underground Railroad“ that stuck with me:

Two escaped slaves were having a conversation about how European people treated blacks and native. One of them observes, “anything the tribes of Europe can’t control, they destroy“.

I look at this chart and observe the reason it’s being presented and maybe the above statement is correct. Maybe white peoples just have an ingrained passion for killing.

I mean, it’s possible.

I'm sure Idi Amin, Mobutu Sese Seko, Joseph Kony, Julius Malema, Mao, the Kim family, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Pinochet, Maduro, Montt, and Castro all agree with you. And that's just a handful of prominent leaders, not to mention entities like the Mexican drug cartels, ISIS and their subsidiaries, al-Qaeda, the different triads in the Shan and elsewhere, and the dozens of rebel armies currently operating across Africa.