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Citing Charlie Kirk murder, Tennessee pastor demands removal of 'Hate Has No Home' signs

rjs330

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They are not. "Liberals" and "progressives" are not "Leftists". When you find a Leftist they can explain it to you.
Since you seem to know and apparently we dont know what a leftist is to be able to ask one, maybe you can explain it to us. Whats rhe difference between a leftist and a progressive?

Maybe grabbing a topic might help.
Abortion.
What would the pro g ressive stance be on abortion and what would the leftist stance be?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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As opposed to what? Its a statement. Especially when you take in the larger accusations. Why not just say love here? No its a statement that we don't hate these groups or activism like others do.
Some seem to imply that it is a statement about others, as do you in your last sentence. When I see that sign I think here lives people that feels that some groups feel afraid and they try to create a space that says that members of those groups are safe from hate at that space. Perhaps they don't think a message as broad as "Love here" gets that point across as effectively.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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No, because I also feel the same way as well as others around me. Coincidence? Nah, we just know how to read between the lines better than you do.
I call Poe's Law on this one - I legitimately can't tell if you're being serious.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Hm.

"I haven't considered the possibility that I'm wrong because I know I'm right" isn't really an attitude conducive to discussion. Just sayin'.

Which ideologies/causes have I artificially attached to the concept of "opposing hate"?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You’ve given opinions. Let’s see the data and the research.

Well, I doubt you'll find any peer reviewed studies about the use of semantic overload, but there's a number of public polls and organizational mission statements that can be reviewed.

For instance, the HRC is one of the orgs that sells that kind of merch.

What are their stances on the various LGBTQ issues? Any wiggle room for a balanced discussion with the folks at the HRC on matters of affirming care for minors, or the sports topic?

How about the pro-choice advocacy groups that leverage the "women's rights are human rights" tagline and symbol? Are those groups open to any sort of balanced European-style solution, where there are allowances for the 3 exception scenarios, but the elective ones get capped somewhere around 15-16 weeks? Or are the heels pretty much dug in on the whole "on-demand/no limits" approach?

I've already provided screenshots from BLM DC showing their missions that go beyond "protecting black lives from police brutality"

Here's what the leader of the LA chapter had to say:

"We say 'white capitalism' because it's important that we understand that the economic system and the racial structures are connected," said Abdullah during her weekly radio show, Beautiful Struggle. "We have to not only disrupt the systems of policing that literally kill our people, but we have to disrupt the white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal, heteronormative system that is really the root cause of these police killings."


Seems like there's a lot of other stuff being bundled in with "Black Live Matter" that go well beyond the simple semantic definition of that phrase, correct? So in order to "truly oppose the police killings of black people", we have to hop on board with disrupting capitalism, the patriarchy, and heteronormative systems?

The original official BLM "who we are" page (which they ended up removing after some backlash) mentioned "seek to dismantle the western-prescribed nuclear family unit"

A lot of that stuff has absolutely nothing to do with protecting black lives from police killings, several westernized countries have managed to address that issue (or never had much of an issue with that in the first place) without having to embrace any of the extraneous left-wing ideological baggage.


So, someone appealing to the more generic concept of "rejecting hate", and then attaching the slogans/symbols from movements that clearly have a much mor expansive lists of demands as the "buy-in", is overloading that phrase.


That's no different than if someone puts a sign out there saying "Defend freedom" (a concept that in the abstract sense, everyone would claim to agree with) and then cluttered up the sign with a bunch of pro-gun & anti-tax symbols and slogans, they're making a statement about what they think is involved with a person being considered "a true defender of freedom"
 
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Larniavc

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Well, I doubt you'll find any peer reviewed studies about the use of semantic overload, but there's a number of public polls and organizational mission statements that can be reviewed.
What a pity; never mind then.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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What a pity; never mind then.
Well lol, its a combination of linguistics and political science... those two particular facets don't lend themselves to the concept of "neat concise peer reviewed studies" the same way the hard sciences do.
 
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BCP1928

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Well, I doubt you'll find any peer reviewed studies about the use of semantic overload, but there's a number of public polls and organizational mission statements that can be reviewed.

For instance, the HRC is one of the orgs that sells that kind of merch.

What are their stances on the various LGBTQ issues? Any wiggle room for a balanced discussion with the folks at the HRC on matters of affirming care for minors, or the sports topic?

How about the pro-choice advocacy groups that leverage the "women's rights are human rights" tagline and symbol? Are those groups open to any sort of balanced European-style solution, where there are allowances for the 3 exception scenarios, but the elective ones get capped somewhere around 15-16 weeks? Or are the heels pretty much dug in on the whole "on-demand/no limits" approach?
It it wasn't for the "pro-life" movement we would probably have European style abortion restrictions already.
I've already provided screenshots from BLM DC showing their missions that go beyond "protecting black lives from police brutality"

Here's what the leader of the LA chapter had to say:

"We say 'white capitalism' because it's important that we understand that the economic system and the racial structures are connected," said Abdullah during her weekly radio show, Beautiful Struggle. "We have to not only disrupt the systems of policing that literally kill our people, but we have to disrupt the white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal, heteronormative system that is really the root cause of these police killings."


Seems like there's a lot of other stuff being bundled in with "Black Live Matter" that go well beyond the simple semantic definition of that phrase, correct? So in order to "truly oppose the police killings of black people", we have to hop on board with disrupting capitalism, the patriarchy, and heteronormative systems?
Why not? Those other ideologies also encourage hatred, though not necessarily just towards people of color. You, personally, can oppose the police killings of black people without embracing those other things.
The original official BLM "who we are" page (which they ended up removing after some backlash) mentioned "seek to dismantle the western-prescribed nuclear family unit"
A useful goal, but too touchy to be blatant about. The thing is, you are projecting a level of political sophistication onto these people which just isn't there. Nobody wants to dismantle families, but they don't necessarily want to be bound by the "Western prescribed nuclear family unit" either.
A lot of that stuff has absolutely nothing to do with protecting black lives from police killings, several westernized countries have managed to address that issue (or never had much of an issue with that in the first place) without having to embrace any of the extraneous left-wing ideological baggage.
Nor the extraneous right-wing ideological baggage.
So, someone appealing to the more generic concept of "rejecting hate", and then attaching the slogans/symbols from movements that clearly have a much mor expansive lists of demands as the "buy-in", is overloading that phrase.
I'm sure they will ask your permission before doing it again, now that you've explained the matter.
That's no different than if someone puts a sign out there saying "Defend freedom" (a concept that in the abstract sense, everyone would claim to agree with) and then cluttered up the sign with a bunch of pro-gun & anti-tax symbols and slogans, they're making a statement about what they think is involved with a person being considered "a true defender of freedom"
As they have Constitutional right to do. You don't have to agree with them.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Well, I doubt you'll find any peer reviewed studies about the use of semantic overload, but there's a number of public polls and organizational mission statements that can be reviewed.

For instance, the HRC is one of the orgs that sells that kind of merch.

What are their stances on the various LGBTQ issues? Any wiggle room for a balanced discussion with the folks at the HRC on matters of affirming care for minors, or the sports topic?

How about the pro-choice advocacy groups that leverage the "women's rights are human rights" tagline and symbol? Are those groups open to any sort of balanced European-style solution, where there are allowances for the 3 exception scenarios, but the elective ones get capped somewhere around 15-16 weeks? Or are the heels pretty much dug in on the whole "on-demand/no limits" approach?

I've already provided screenshots from BLM DC showing their missions that go beyond "protecting black lives from police brutality"

Here's what the leader of the LA chapter had to say:

"We say 'white capitalism' because it's important that we understand that the economic system and the racial structures are connected," said Abdullah during her weekly radio show, Beautiful Struggle. "We have to not only disrupt the systems of policing that literally kill our people, but we have to disrupt the white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal, heteronormative system that is really the root cause of these police killings."


Seems like there's a lot of other stuff being bundled in with "Black Live Matter" that go well beyond the simple semantic definition of that phrase, correct? So in order to "truly oppose the police killings of black people", we have to hop on board with disrupting capitalism, the patriarchy, and heteronormative systems?

The original official BLM "who we are" page (which they ended up removing after some backlash) mentioned "seek to dismantle the western-prescribed nuclear family unit"

A lot of that stuff has absolutely nothing to do with protecting black lives from police killings, several westernized countries have managed to address that issue (or never had much of an issue with that in the first place) without having to embrace any of the extraneous left-wing ideological baggage.


So, someone appealing to the more generic concept of "rejecting hate", and then attaching the slogans/symbols from movements that clearly have a much mor expansive lists of demands as the "buy-in", is overloading that phrase.


That's no different than if someone puts a sign out there saying "Defend freedom" (a concept that in the abstract sense, everyone would claim to agree with) and then cluttered up the sign with a bunch of pro-gun & anti-tax symbols and slogans, they're making a statement about what they think is involved with a person being considered "a true defender of freedom"
Why use organizational statements at all? It gets very sensitive to what organization you choose as representatives. I googled hate has no home here sign and clicked on amazon to buy one and got this result (after logging out of my account, don't ask me why I got flags not signs or why they think I'm apparently in nashville):
Skärmbild 2025-09-29 175232.png

It is not very similar to what you initially presented. So why should I believe that most people that buy those signs have so many complex thoughts about which organization they support with every single symbol? Why would the HRC be representative of those that buy "hate has no home here " signs?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It it wasn't for the "pro-life" movement we would probably have European style abortion restrictions already.
Ironically enough... many of the red states (when left to their own devices) made abortion laws that are pretty much on-par (or even more permissive) than what you'll find in Europe.

For example, Utah has similar abortion laws to Sweden and Norway. The pro-choice advocates here in the US would suggest that Utah's laws are unacceptable.


The reason they were given an "F" grade...

Utah’s Grade: Utah received an “F” this year. Most notably, Utah received poor marks because: Utah has the following laws, which make it unnecessarily difficult for someone to have an abortion: there is an 18-week abortion ban; there is a mandatory waiting period of 72 hours between counseling and procedure; and parental consent and notice is required. Utah bans best practice medication and surgical care for transgender youth.


To put that in context:
  • Sweden: Abortion is legal on request up to the 18th week of pregnancy. Beyond this, abortions are permitted up to the 22nd week if the fetus has a serious defect or if there are other serious reasons.
  • Norway: Abortion is allowed on request up to the 18th week. After this period, a medical board must approve the procedure, and abortions are typically permitted only if the fetus is not viable.
  • Denmark: Abortion is legal on request up to the 18th week. After this period, abortions are allowed under specific circumstances, such as risk to the woman's health or fetal abnormalities.
  • Finland: Abortion is legal on request up to the 12th week. After this period, abortions are permitted up to the 24th week in cases of fetal defects or serious health risks to the woman.


Heck, they're only giving Massachussettes (a blue state with fairly liberal Abortion laws) a "D+"


The reason for them getting a "D+"?

Massachusetts bans abortion at 24 weeks and requires parental consent or notice before a minor can obtain an abortion.



A useful goal, but too touchy to be blatant about. The thing is, you are projecting a level of political sophistication onto these people which just isn't there.

If people are so committed and involved on a particular issue, is it really that unreasonable for people to expect them to know what the symbols and slogans on their signs mean? While I'm not personally of the ilk that puts bumper stickers on my car or signs in my yard, if I was going to, I'd make sure I knew the details what I was broadcasting to the rest of the public
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Skärmbild 2025-09-29 175232.png

It is not very similar to what you initially presented.

It's not?
1759162298444.png


I would say this is quite similar to the second result that came up on your amazon search

Why would the HRC be representative of those that buy "hate has no home here " signs?
if you go into the HRC merch shop, you'll see some quite similar yard flags/shirts/etc using similar symbolism and language choices.
 
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BCP1928

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Ironically enough... many of the red states (when left to their own devices) made abortion laws that are pretty much on-par (or even more permissive) than what you'll find in Europe.

For example, Utah has similar abortion laws to Sweden and Norway. The pro-choice advocates here in the US would suggest that Utah's laws are unacceptable.


The reason they were given an "F" grade...

Utah’s Grade: Utah received an “F” this year. Most notably, Utah received poor marks because: Utah has the following laws, which make it unnecessarily difficult for someone to have an abortion: there is an 18-week abortion ban; there is a mandatory waiting period of 72 hours between counseling and procedure; and parental consent and notice is required. Utah bans best practice medication and surgical care for transgender youth.


To put that in context:
  • Sweden: Abortion is legal on request up to the 18th week of pregnancy. Beyond this, abortions are permitted up to the 22nd week if the fetus has a serious defect or if there are other serious reasons.
  • Norway: Abortion is allowed on request up to the 18th week. After this period, a medical board must approve the procedure, and abortions are typically permitted only if the fetus is not viable.
  • Denmark: Abortion is legal on request up to the 18th week. After this period, abortions are allowed under specific circumstances, such as risk to the woman's health or fetal abnormalities.
  • Finland: Abortion is legal on request up to the 12th week. After this period, abortions are permitted up to the 24th week in cases of fetal defects or serious health risks to the woman.
Your comment on Norway should give you a clue: "...a medical board must approve the procedure..." Not a medically untrained magistrate enforcing vague laws written by ideologically motivated legislators.
Heck, they're only giving Massachussettes (a blue state with fairly liberal Abortion laws) a "D+"


The reason for them getting a "D+"?

Massachusetts bans abortion at 24 weeks and requires parental consent or notice before a minor can obtain an abortion.
Explain that to, say, a 14 year old girl pregnant by her drug addicted mother's boyfriend.
If people are so committed and involved on a particular issue, is it really that unreasonable for people to expect them to know what the symbols and slogans on their signs mean? While I'm not personally of the ilk that puts bumper stickers on my car or signs in my yard, if I was going to, I'd make sure I knew the details what I was broadcasting to the rest of the public
They do. That's why, for instance, they specifically "seek to dismantle the western-prescribed nuclear family unit" rather than seeking to dismantle families.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Larniavc

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Well lol, its a combination of linguistics and political science... those two particular facets don't lend themselves to the concept of "neat concise peer reviewed studies" the same way the hard sciences do.
Quite the contrary. I myself trained in the kind of qualitative analysis that is commonly used in social science. It should be easy to find at least some research in that area. Unless of course it does not mean what you think it to mean.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Heck, they're only giving Massachussettes (a blue state with fairly liberal Abortion laws) a "D+"

https://reportcard.reprosfightback.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Massachusetts.pdf
The reason for them getting a "D+"?

Massachusetts bans abortion at 24 weeks and requires parental consent or notice before a minor can obtain an abortion.
Well, that's not misleading at all. Their abortion restrictions score was a 5/15, which would have given them a score of 90/100, and that was the only deduction they got for abortion access. The other 30 points they lost were because they don't mandate sex ed (-20 points) and don't offer family planning services under Medicaid (-10 points).

Rhode Island gets the same "Abortion Restrictions" score as Massachusetts, but earns a B+ overall on their scale. Which, it should be noted, is based on the US school grading scale, meaning that a score of 50 or less is an F - which means that it's not really useful for anything other than grabbing headlines and making people angry. Groups like this are, ultimately, not very helpful.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Your comment on Norway should give you a clue: "...a medical board must approve the procedure..." Not a medically untrained magistrate enforcing vague laws written by ideologically motivated legislators.
So the pro-choice advocates here would be okay with an 18 week cap on elective abortions, and any beyond that would be subject to a medical review board? I'm guessing no
Explain that to, say, a 14 year old girl pregnant by her drug addicted mother's boyfriend.
There are other legal proceedings that need to happen for outlier scenarios like that.

In virtually no other area of society do we give 14 year olds the same full rights as adults simply based on their parent's criminality and/or negligence.

The the scenario you describe, guardianship should be transferred to another responsible adult or entity, and that responsible adult can be the one who is provided notice, and giving the consent.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Rhode Island gets the same "Abortion Restrictions" score as Massachusetts, but earns a B+ overall on their scale. Which, it should be noted, is based on the US school grading scale, meaning that a score of 50 or less is an F - which means that it's not really useful for anything other than grabbing headlines and making people angry. Groups like this are, ultimately, not very helpful.
Not helpful because their grading system is flawed?

Or not helpful because they say the quiet some of the quiet parts out loud and make the pro-choice advocacy movement as a whole seem a bit extreme and inflexible?

The NARAL (they've changed their name to Reproductive Freedom for All) was the largest pro-choice advocacy group in the US for quite some time -- they may still be. They used to do these yearly state report cards as well and used similar grading criteria, where basically any restriction at all would get a state a bad grade, and to get an A you pretty much had to be "abortion: on demand, for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy, taxpayer funded, with no limitations"
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Not helpful because their grading system is flawed?
I said why.

Care to address my actual point though? About your deliberately misleading characterization?
 
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