ABC pulls Jimmy Kimmel Live after comments on Charlie Kirk

[RDKirk]

One could be convinced that fascism is correct. I'm sure we could play the Devil's Advocate and actually argue the case for fascism.

People did. In the 20s and 30s, fascism was just one of many ideas of government that were being tried out around the world. Fascism was not "evil"--the fascists were proud of the form of government they had conceived. They were eager to talk and write about it. Lots of people, even in the US, thought fascism was a good idea.

And people tend to forget that Spain's government was fascist until the mid 70s.

 

[BCP1928]

There are numerous different kinds of authoritarianisms, many of them on the left, such as Maoism and whatever Pol Pot was practicing.

When I use the term "fascist" (and I usually specify "classical fascist") I specifically mean "fascist" as defined by the fascists themselves in the 1920s and 30s. People "shotgun" the use of "fascist" far too freely, and when they do, their intent is usually to signal "evil" particularly in the context of "no compromise or reconciliation or treaty."

Who would compromise with someone they've designated "evil?" Who would compromise with someone they've designated "fascist?"

Used in that way, it means the same thing.

How about "authoritarian ideologue?" That would be more accurate and would avoid invoking any of the right-wing extremist regimes usually associated with "fascism."

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And people tend to forget that Spain's government was fascist until the mid 70s.

Yeah, somehow Spain managed to "fly under the radar" all this time, they were involved in global atrocities and atrocious institutions to a degree that put many of the other empires to shame. (fascism, slavery, unethical conquest, religious tyranny)

Spain pretty much embodies this meme

Every other country that engaged in those things are expected to give perpetual graveling apologies and "atone for their sins"

The extent of modern public discourse about their misdeeds is basically confined to a single Monty Python sketch.

 

[Chesterton]

Yeah, somehow Spain managed to "fly under the radar" all this time, they were involved in global atrocities and atrocious institutions to a degree that put many of the other empires to shame. (fascism, slavery, unethical conquest, religious tyranny)

Spain pretty much embodies this meme
View attachment 370735


Every other country that engaged in those things are expected to give perpetual graveling apologies and "atone for their sins"

The extent of modern public discourse about their misdeeds is basically confined to a single Monty Python sketch.
View attachment 370736

A long time ago I met a Spanish lady who lived under Franco. She loved it. She said society was so orderly that any person could discipline another person's child if they misbehaved in public. That's a very un-American thing, and might get you into a fistfight here. Her only complaint was that the large tanks in the frequent military parades would tear up the streets for awhile until they fixed them.

 

[Chesterton]

People did. In the 20s and 30s, fascism was just one of many ideas of government that were being tried out around the world. Fascism was not "evil"--the fascists were proud of the form of government they had conceived. They were eager to talk and write about it. Lots of people, even in the US, thought fascism was a good idea.

And people tend to forget that Spain's government was fascist until the mid 70s.

Recommend reading: The Appeal Of Fascism.

 

[Bradskii]

Yeah, somehow Spain managed to "fly under the radar" all this time...

You know there was a war and the bad guys won?

 

[Bradskii]

A long time ago I met a Spanish lady who lived under Franco. She loved it. She said society was so orderly that any person could discipline another person's child if they misbehaved in public. That's a very un-American thing, and might get you into a fistfight here. Her only complaint was that the large tanks in the frequent military parades would tear up the streets for awhile until they fixed them.

In 1970 I travelled from Bilbao in the north down to Alicante on the Costa Blanca. I spoke a little Spanish but no-one was interested in talking about Franco. On two occasions the local I was talking to literally got up immediately and walked away as soon as I mentioned Franco's name. With a lot of muttering 'No, no, no...'

 

[Chesterton]

In 1970 I travelled from Bilbao in the north down to Alicante on the Costa Blanca. I spoke a little Spanish but no-one was interested in talking about Franco. On two occasions the local I was talking to literally got up immediately and walked away as soon as I mentioned Franco's name. With a lot of muttering 'No, no, no...'

The lady I spoke with was in America at the time of speaking. Probably makes a difference.

 

[Bradskii]

The lady I spoke with was in America at the time of speaking. Probably makes a difference.

Ah yes. It might. And she supported him. Being in Spain back then and not supporting him - even to the point of saying something out loud in a bar, that might have been considered...risky. My cousin, who I was visiting near Alicante, told me later that I had to be careful. Some teenage punk, long hair, beads, spouting off naive comments about Franco in bad Spanish in a bar in a very conservative place like Bilbao...it could have seen me dragged out the back and beaten.

My first ever lesson on political debate...

 

[Chesterton]

Ah yes. It might. And she supported him. Being in Spain back then and not supporting him - even to the point of saying something out loud in a bar, that might have been considered...risky. My cousin, who I was visiting near Alicante, told me later that I had to be careful. Some teenage punk, long hair, beads, spouting off naive comments about Franco in bad Spanish in a bar in a very conservative place like Bilbao...it could have seen me dragged out the back and beaten.

My first ever lesson on political debate...

Yes, it would be a lot like trying to talk to antifa. Not even criticizing, just trying to talk.

 

[JSRG]

People did. In the 20s and 30s, fascism was just one of many ideas of government that were being tried out around the world. Fascism was not "evil"--the fascists were proud of the form of government they had conceived. They were eager to talk and write about it. Lots of people, even in the US, thought fascism was a good idea.

And people tend to forget that Spain's government was fascist until the mid 70s.

Whether Spain ever qualified as "fascist" is a debated point. Spain was definitely authoritarian until the mid 1970's, because that's when Franco died and the country transitioned towards democracy, but whether it qualified as fascist is a more complex issue. Though even if it did, that would not seem to go into the 1970's, as Spain did loosen things up and allow for greater freedom later on in Franco's regime.

However, you were talking more specifically about what people thought about the system of government, I suppose the technicalities of whether it qualified as fascism or not are not so important. But if we're talking about beliefs, I don't think Spain presented itself as fascist, unlike Italy and Germany who under Hitler and Mussolini were perfectly happy to use the term to describe their governments.

 

[Bradskii]

Yes, it would be a lot like trying to talk to antifa. Not even criticizing, just trying to talk.

It's actually not a lot like that at all.

 

[Chesterton]

It's actually not a lot like that at all.

You don't see a similarity in using violence to silence people who disagree with you or even just question you? That seems to me a hallmark of fascism.

 

[Bradskii]

You don't see a similarity in using violence to silence people who disagree with you or even just question you? That seems to me a hallmark of fascism.

As opposed to:

Not even criticizing, just trying to talk.

My example was specifically regarding criticising. It's the reason for the 3G rule when I'm travelling in the US. If I'm in a bar, I avoid discussing God, guns or government. And in any case, comparing having a chat in the US in the present day with someone who espouses what you want to describe as antifa and bad mouthing a Spanish dictator anywhere in Spain in 1970...well, they're not remotely the same.

 

[RDKirk]

Whether Spain ever qualified as "fascist" is a debated point. Spain was definitely authoritarian until the mid 1970's, because that's when Franco died and the country transitioned towards democracy, but whether it qualified as fascist is a more complex issue. Though even if it did, that would not seem to go into the 1970's, as Spain did loosen things up and allow for greater freedom later on in Franco's regime.

However, you were talking more specifically about what people thought about the system of government, I suppose the technicalities of whether it qualified as fascism or not are not so important. But if we're talking about beliefs, I don't think Spain presented itself as fascist, unlike Italy and Germany who under Hitler and Mussolini were perfectly happy to use the term to describe their governments.

Well, yeah, after WWII--after fascism became a very bad thing to the world--Franco did downplay it significantly.

But as I said: In the 20s and 30s, fascism was just one of many ideas of government that were being tried out around the world. Fascism was not "evil"--the fascists were proud of the form of government they had conceived. They were eager to talk and write about it. Lots of people, even in the US, thought fascism was a good idea.

And many still do think so. I'll present again the three primary components of classical fascism:

• Organicism – A “blood and soil” concept where a certain people are the rightful inheritors of the nation.
• Absolutism – The will of those people is embodied by a single Inspired Leader.
• Political Irrationalism – Citizens’ political wills must be suppressed in favor of obedience to the Inspired Leader.

Those make a lot of sense to a lot of people today.

 

[BCP1928]

In 1970 I travelled from Bilbao in the north down to Alicante on the Costa Blanca. I spoke a little Spanish but no-one was interested in talking about Franco. On two occasions the local I was talking to literally got up immediately and walked away as soon as I mentioned Franco's name. With a lot of muttering 'No, no, no...'

I was in Spain just before Franco died and again not long after. The first time I found the place rather grim. The second time was like walking into a party in progress.

 

[Bradskii]

I was in Spain just before Franco died and again not long after. The first time I found the place rather grim. The second time was like walking into a party in progress.

The parties were all along the Med coast back then. Young people taking advantage of cheap airfares and package tours to enjoy the sun, sea, sand and...well, getting to know each other. My cousin had a bar in a small fishing village called Beniform. Which became a huge city over the next 20 years. She wanted me to stay and help run the bar. Good grief, it was a coin toss.

A real sliding doors moment.

 

[Chesterton]

As opposed to:

My example was specifically regarding criticising.

My example was regarding both criticizing and questioning, you know, trying to have a conversation, as Charlie Kirk did.

It's the reason for the 3G rule when I'm travelling in the US. If I'm in a bar, I avoid discussing God, guns or government.

Avoiding bringing up religion or politics with strangers is a long-standing unwritten rule in the U.S., dating back many decades. I heard it when I was a kid.

And in any case, comparing having a chat in the US in the present day with someone who espouses what you want to describe as antifa...

What I want to describe as Antifa?? Are you an Antifa-denier?

...and bad mouthing a Spanish dictator anywhere in Spain in 1970...well, they're not remotely the same.

No, it's the same thing. Disagree or question things, and bad things can happen to you. That is fascism tactic 101 as practiced by both Franco and Antifa.