The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

[chevyontheriver]

That said, without concern for the context of the original quote, "I mean, "Come out from her". We have to maintain our separation," could easily apply in a strict literal sense to the current rabbit trail of contraception...

But the sarcasm was very contextual. I don't know what your 'rabbit trail' is all about, but there is a very real contingent of critics of traditional Christianity for which 'come out from her' is a verse at the ready to throw at Catholics.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think this thread is more about the self-inflicted damage done to the attacker than the actual harm done to the attacked. The self-imposed spiritual blindness of the attacker. The energy wasted in attacking when it should be spent on self-reflection and repentance. It's easy enough to avoid hateful attackers of the Church. But I think this thread was a thread of mercy and an invitation for the attackers to reflect on things that they would otherwise seldom consider. So far though, the attackers are being true to form.

Amen!

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That is to the good. It’s otherwise a bit too much to expect that those raised on hostility to the historic faith with their mothers milk could overcome it in one fell swoop.

Nor should we expect them to do so. I know it is frustrating and when the truth of the Gospel is seen, the urge to grab someone, shake them and
say, “are you freaking blind?!?” Is strong.
That is not what God has called us to do.

1 Corinthians 11 has been brought up. Let’s see these verses

31 But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world. 33 Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.


We all claim to follow Christ that come here. If that is not true, then declare it and stop pretending.

Colossians 3 tells us how to behave


1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God: 2 Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth. 3 For you are dead; and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ shall appear, who is your life, then you also shall appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols.

6 For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief, 7 In which you also walked some time, when you lived in them. 8 But now put you also all away: anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another: stripping yourselves of the old man with his deeds, 10 And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him.

11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.


We all want to fight zealously for the Lord, but we still must obey His commandments or else we become liars. 1 John 2

3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also to walk, even as he walked. 7 Dearly beloved, I write not a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 Again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true both in him and in you; because the darkness is passed, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother, abideth in the light, and there is no scandal in him




Sarcasm, mockery, hatred or false accusations are not acts of charity, and according to the golden rule, are behaviors that ought not be done
“Do unto others as you would have them do so to you”

The spiritual battle is not against flesh and blood. We are all here to worship God. Should we not elevate His name and obey His commands rather than cut each other down?
Yes I know I have been guilty at times, but how does pointing the finger at me, lift the name of Jesus?

Our Lord allowed Himself to be beaten, spit on, mocked and killed in order to save us from sin. Paul says he became all things to all people that by all means he may save some. Could we not by the grace of God do the same?


There have been many charges leveled against the Catholic Church. In the interest of Charity, we may examine whether they are true, but it requires cool heads to achieve anything useful
My position is that the charges are not true, but we can look at them. We need to look at ever charge in the most charitable manner, because as Our Lord Himself said, the same measure you use to judge another will be used to judge you. If you show mercy, mercy will be shown you


Peace be with you

 

[jamiec]

Anyone who spends an inordinate amount of time attacking a particular denomination, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, is harming themselves and others.

With regards to themselves, they are distracting themselves from what the Greek fathers called “nepsis”, that is to say, watchfulness, over their own sins, by focusing on the alleged or historical sins of others which are in many cases literally ancient history. The time spent attacking Rome endlessly is better spent in repentence.

With regards to others, much of what they say has the effect of also causing great offense to other traditional liturgical Protestants, such as the Lutherans and High Church Anglicans, who are among the oldest Protestant denominations, and Moravians, who are the oldest Protestant denomination to preserve their own distinctive theological and liturgical identity (the Waldensians are older, but converted to Calvinism, and later embraced a hybrid Methodist doctrine in becoming the main Protestant denomination in Italy; their original beliefs were eccentric, not quite in line with later Protestantism, and from what we know about them, were quite possibly erroneous after the fashion of the Donatists). These liturgical Protestants share many beliefs with the Roman Catholic Church and many worship practices; many of them call their main Eucharistic service “the Mass” for example.

Furthermore, harm is caused to Eastern Christians - the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East. These churches were at one time in communion with Rome, but were historically independent, and later were separated in schisms, many of which are close to healing (for example, Roman Catholics and members of the Assyrian Church of the East can receive the Eucharist in all of each others parishes, and this is also true for some Oriental Orthodox parishes, and would be the case for the Eastern Orthodox, except most bishops are not prepared to allow it, but some probably do in certain parts of the world; indeed some of the EO churches with the most formidable reputations for being conservative are actually among the most liturgically relaxed.

The problem is that a great many anti-Catholic polemics were written by people unaware of the Eastern churches, or the history of the early church; for example, they were unaware that most of those present at the Council of Nicaea were Greek, with a Roman Emperor and two Roman legates among the 318 bishops who signed the Nicene Creed. There were also probably some Syriac Fathers, who did attend at some ecumenical synods, and perhaps even an Armenian, Ethiopian or Georgian (Ethiopia and Georgia were either the fourth or fifth countries to convert entirely to Christianity, or the fifth and sixth to embrace it officially, counting Rome; I forget the order in which they converted, but the basic order was the City State of Edessa in 301 AD, followed by the Kingdom of Armenia in 306 AD, the Roman Empire in 314 AD with the conversion of St. Constantine, the Edict of Milan and the defeat of the pagan co-emperor Licinius, who was a known persecutor of Christians (interestingly, St. Constantine’s mother St. Helena had been Christian for some time); followed by Georgia and Ethiopia.

Some people falsely claim that Constantine imposed all of these doctrine on the churches, which is hugely offensive to Eastern Christians who were persecuted by Arian Emperors like Constantius, and who had been involved in the Council of Nicaea and the later Ecumenical Synods, all of which were held in the East, in Constantinople or elsewhere in Asia Minor.

Lastly, the attacks against the Roman Church are scurrilous in many cases, ignoring the extremely important humanitarian work performed by the RCC, which is the largest charitable organization on Earth, with operations that as an Orthodox I greatly admire; due to communism nearly all Orthodox hospitals and universities in Eastern Europe were seized, leaving only some facilities in the Middle East (in particular, orphanages in Egypt, which are necessary because the Muslims cruelly oppose their religion’s objection to adoption on all orphaned children in Egypt, not just Muslims but the Christians who comprise over 10% of the population, including Coptic Catholics as well as Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.

The Roman Catholic Church was also indispensible in procuring the repeal of Roe v. Wade in the United States and has stood with other traditional Christian churches in opposing abortion, euthanasia and other contemporary evils.

Thus perhaps we should consider the beam in our own eye before complaining about the splinter in the eye of Roman Catholics, and cease constant and unwarranted criticism of their denomination.

Thanks for that. I fear that it won't make a lot of difference. Judging others - especially an "other" who has for centuries had top billing as Supreme Earthly Enemy of God and the Gospel - is much too entertaining. Everything that can be said in defence of the CC, can be explained away. That's not at all pretty, but it's how things are, unfortunately. And that is, perhaps, how things will remain. Hating oeople is fun - especially if it can be "justified" from Scripture; having God on one's side, to command & to sanctify one's uglier impulses, is a very powerful drug.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Thanks for that. I fear that it won't make a lot of difference. Judging others - especially an "other" who has for centuries had top billing as Supreme Earthly Enemy of God and the Gospel - is much too entertaining. Everything that can be said in defence of the CC, can be explained away. That's not at all pretty, but it's how things are, unfortunately. And that is, perhaps, how things will remain. Hating oeople is fun - especially if it can be "justified" from Scripture; having God on one's side, to command & to sanctify one's uglier impulses, is a very powerful drug.

The contrary is also true. Every charge that can be brought against the Catholic Church can be explained away. But what do these charges and explanations do? Sway the minds of men?

Faith is required to see God and the kingdom of heaven, that is true, but God does not require our faith for His existence. The truth aka reality stands on its own. We all are in a struggle to bring it into focus.
God does not wait to hand out medals for those that can convince the most people to their way of thinking. He rewards those that continue to keep searching for Him. Those that have humility to serve their fellow believers, those that continue the good fight of faith to study to show themselves approved, not by men, but by God.

What joy do we take to write off a whole class of people that do not agree with us? If we do take joy in it, then we are not following the Spirit of God who desires all men to be saved

The Catholic Church recognizes all baptized believers as those that desire to follow Christ, in return we are called the harlot of Babylon, carriers of the mark of the beast and idolaters.
There is something very wrong in that contrast of situations.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Having an Idol in the House Brings Curse​

According to religious and spiritual beliefs, having an idol in your house can bring a curse. In the context of idolatry, which is considered a sin of rebellion against God, the presence of idols is seen as an affront to God's sovereignty and can lead to divine punishment in the form of curses. These curses can include humiliation, failure to reproduce, mental and physical illness, family breakdown, alienation of children, poverty, defeat, oppression, and God's disfavor.12
Religious texts such as Deuteronomy warn against the practice of idolatry and the consequences of not obeying God's commandments. The curses from disobedience mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:15-61 are severe and can affect both the saved and unsaved until they are broken through repentance.1
In some interpretations, idols are not just symbolic but can be considered as objects that bring darkness and depression into a home, leading to spiritual and physical harm.2
It is advised to avoid bringing idols into your house as they are considered abominations and can lead to being cursed like the object itself.

Which is exactly why lots of Catholics, me included, blew up over the Pachamama thing in the Vatican.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Having an Idol in the House Brings Curse​

According to religious and spiritual beliefs, having an idol in your house can bring a curse. In the context of idolatry, which is considered a sin of rebellion against God, the presence of idols is seen as an affront to God's sovereignty and can lead to divine punishment in the form of curses. These curses can include humiliation, failure to reproduce, mental and physical illness, family breakdown, alienation of children, poverty, defeat, oppression, and God's disfavor.12
Religious texts such as Deuteronomy warn against the practice of idolatry and the consequences of not obeying God's commandments. The curses from disobedience mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:15-61 are severe and can affect both the saved and unsaved until they are broken through repentance.1
In some interpretations, idols are not just symbolic but can be considered as objects that bring darkness and depression into a home, leading to spiritual and physical harm.2
It is advised to avoid bringing idols into your house as they are considered abominations and can lead to being cursed like the object itself.

Completely agree


That does beg the question what is an idol?

Can we agree that an idol is an object or idea made by human hands put forth and to be worshipped as God, but it is not God, rather the work of human hands?

Is that a reasonable definition?


Are all graven images idols? That requires Biblical knowledge and further study.

We read in the Torah where the Israelites were being poisoned and dying from being bitten by snakes. God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a pole, so that anyone bitten by a snake may look at the bronze serpent and not die. If they refused to look, they would still die.
We also read in Scripture about construction of the Ark of the Covenant, which was wood overlayed with gold upon which was a mercy seat outlined by graven images of angels. The Ark of the Covenant carried the very presence of God, and it was a graven image, yet not an idol.
Scripture tells us that not all graven images are idols.
So what is the difference? An idol is brought forth by the will of man and other men command it to be worshipped as God. That is sin against the first commandment
A graven image brought forth by the command of God is not an idol.

Mary is not an idol, because she was brought forth at the will of God, not the mental or physical design of men. We read Genesis 3:15 and Luke Chapters 1-2 and see this is so. She exists by and for the will of God, not men.
An image of Christ on the Cross reminds us of Christ’s atoning sacrifice, which occurred by the will of God, as even Christ Himself says, not my will but thine be done

The Israelites made a golden calf which was completely by their own will and worshiped it as their god that brought them out of the land of Egypt. No where does God say He is to be portrayed as a calf. That idol came from the minds of men. They brought God who cannot be contained down to their own perception of who He should be. Effectively rendering God, subject to them, and not them being subject to God.

The Catholic Church does not worship Idols. We make graven images to celebrate the works that God has done.
Just as the Ark of the Covenant contained the glory of God, we hold the Eucharist to contain the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He said this is my Body and the cup contains the blood of the New Covenant which was shed for us. We follow His command to do it in remembrance of Him, as a perpetual remembrance of His sacrifice on the cross. Though accused of idolatry, it is not true, because it is not by our will but by God’s.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

As a cradle Catholic of 70 years I gave seen a lot. And I have also studied a lot and know the history. I am aware of the rich depth of grace and spirituality, all the good done in the name of Christ. And I am also aware of the corruption, scandal, abuse, shame and sin. I am glad we can acknowledge it all and make reforms.

For me it is a family, skeletons in the closet and saints.

 

[ralliann]

As a cradle Catholic of 70 years I gave seen a lot. And I have also studied a lot and know the history. I am aware of the rich depth of grace and spirituality, all the good done in the name of Christ. And I am also aware of the corruption, scandal, abuse, shame and sin. I am glad we can acknowledge it all and make reforms.

For me it is a family, skeletons in the closet and saints.

I would love to see reform concerning Jew's in Nostra aetate. Admitting they erred in replacement theology... If they did I might be able to become Catholic.