Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

OK, then leave Calivin out then.

You need to talk to yourself, I never mention his name

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You need to talk to yourself, I never mention his name

ok then . let me repost

Anyone who selects only a few verses from the Bible to conclude that God chooses millions of individuals, whom He created in His own image, for damnation, is presenting a claim that is unfounded. Such an interpretation demonstrates a misunderstanding of the nature of God or Bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

ok then . let me repost

Anyone who selects only a few verses from the Bible to conclude that God chooses millions of individuals, whom He created in His own image, for damnation, is presenting a claim that is unfounded. Such an interpretation demonstrates a misunderstanding of the nature of God or Bible.

The reprobate arent in His Image, in fact God despises their image Ps 73:17-20

17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

He created them as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction

 

[tall73]

Yes it is, man cant reject the will of God for his life, its not possible. Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Thats like saying those men staid His Hand !

Why did you not provide your better translation?

The text says that they did reject God's purpose/plan/will, etc. for their lives.

Luke 7:30-35​

30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for them, not having been baptized by John.)​

31 “To what then shall I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another,​

“‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;​

we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’​

33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.” (ESV)​

Now God's purpose will still go forward, despite anything man does.

Ephesians 1:7-10​

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. (ESV)​

And they only hurt themselves by annulling his purpose of good towards themselves. But it does say they rejected it.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
And to clarify, are you the sort of Calvinist who thinks that every action and thought was meticulously decreed by God prior to creation? Would you see every sin as ordained? Would you see every event of history, and every mundane cat meme on the internet as decreed from the beginning?​

Yes Eph 1:11

Ephesians indicates God works all things according to His will. He will accomplish His purposes.

It does not say He scripted ahead of time every murderous intent, every lustful thought, etc. In fact, He clearly says the opposite:

James 1:13-14​

3 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (KJV)​

 

[Brightfame52]

Why did you not provide your better translation?

No need to, I gave scriptural reason

 

[Brightfame52]

Ephesians indicates God works all things according to His will. He will accomplish His purposes.

I know what it says, that's why I posted it.

 

[dms1972]

Yes Eph 1:11

Predestination doesn't refer to every event that takes place in the world, that would theologically come under the meaning of God's Sovereignty and Providence. Which again can be understood in different ways, ie. Generally or specifically.

 

[tall73]

No need to, I gave scriptural reason

You gave a reason based on your systematic why what the text said could not be accurate.

If you allege a poor translation, it is on you to point out how. There was nothing wrong with the translation.

They rejected God's plan for them.

 

[tall73]

I know what it says, that's why I posted it.

It does not say God decrees every sin, which you indicated earlier.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

The reprobate arent in His Image, in fact God despises their image Ps 73:17-20

17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

He created them as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction

This reflects the point I made in my previous post. At times, some Christians cite individual Bible verses out of context to support specific doctrines. There are numerous passages—at least twenty—that affirm God created man in His own image, expresses love for all people regardless of their background, desires salvation for everyone, and does not wish anyone to perish. However, posting these references may be unnecessary, as you already have access to them and likely possess greater familiarity with these verses than I do. Ultimately, it appears that your beliefs are shaped by interpretations that align with your perspective.

But my question is how do you know you are created in God’s image and elected for eternity?

 

[Brightfame52]

Predestination doesn't refer to every event that takes place in the world,

I would disagree, but even still God is still God and working all things after after His will is just Him being God, providence as well is governed by His will Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him[God] who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God doesnt stop being God, who He is when its outside the soteriological context

 

[Brightfame52]

You gave a reason based on your systematic

Upon scripture. And the kjv is a fine translation. But Im not going to argue about translations, though the one used was faulty

 

[Brightfame52]

It does not say God decrees every sin, which you indicated earlier.

It doesnt say He doesnt, but thats not the issue

 

[Brightfame52]

But my question is how do you know you are created in God’s image and elected for eternity?

Lol, if I was you, worry about yourself

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Lol, if I was you, worry about yourself

So you don’t know if you are one of those elected one. That is unfortunate.

On the other hand, I am confident in my acceptance of Christ as my personal savior and in the promise of eternal life. I am a child of God, with my citizenship in heaven seald by the Holy Spirit.

If you're unsure, just turn to Christ, repent, and accept Him as your savior. And you will have eternal life and no matter what You will have the assurance that one day you will be in haven.

No need to worry about if God elected you or not elect you, just come to Christ and accept him as your savior.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you don’t know

We will discuss it on Judgment Day

 

[tall73]

And the kjv is a fine translation. But Im not going to argue about translations, though the one used was faulty

Did you forget you were the one who introduced the issue of translation in the first place?

That's a misleading translation

Your problem remains in all the translations. They rejected God's purpose/plan/will/counsel for themselves.

​

​

New International Version​

But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)​

​

New Living Translation​

But the Pharisees and experts in religious law rejected God’s plan for them, for they had refused John’s baptism.​

​

English Standard Version​

but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

​

Berean Standard Bible​

But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.​

​

Berean Literal Bible​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God as to themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

​

King James Bible​

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.​

​

New King James Version​

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

​

New American Standard Bible​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.​

​

Legacy Standard Bible​

But the Pharisees and the scholars of the Law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.​

​

Christian Standard Bible​

But since the Pharisees and experts in the law had not been baptized by him, they rejected the plan of God for themselves.​

​

Holman Christian Standard Bible​

But since the Pharisees and experts in the law had not been baptized by him, they rejected the plan of God for themselves.)​

​

American Standard Version​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected for themselves the counsel of God, being not baptized of him.​

​

English Revised Version​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected for themselves the counsel of God, being not baptized of him.​

​

Good News Translation​

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law rejected God's purpose for themselves and refused to be baptized by John.​

​

NET Bible​

However, the Pharisees and the experts in religious law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.​

​

Majority Standard Bible​

But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.​

​

World English Bible​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.​

​

Berean Literal Bible​

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God as to themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

​

Young's Literal Translation​

but the Pharisees, and the lawyers, the counsel of God did put away for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

​

Smith's Literal Translation​

And the Pharisees, and they pertaining to the law, rejected the counsel of God against themselves, not immersed by him.​

​

New American Bible​

but the Pharisees and scholars of the law, who were not baptized by him, rejected the plan of God for themselves.​

​

New Revised Standard Version​

But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.​

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:​

And to clarify, are you the sort of Calvinist who thinks that every action and thought was meticulously decreed by God prior to creation? Would you see every sin as ordained? Would you see every event of history, and every mundane cat meme on the internet as decreed from the beginning?​

​

Brightfame52 said:​

Yes Eph 1:11​

​

tall73 said:​

Ephesians indicates God works all things according to His will. He will accomplish His purposes. It does not say He scripted ahead of time every murderous intent, every lustful thought, etc. In fact, He clearly says the opposite:​

James 1:13-14​

3 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (KJV)​

​

tall73 said:​

It does not say God decrees every sin, which you indicated earlier.​

Brightfame52 said:​

It doesnt say He doesnt, but thats not the issue​

Of course it is the issue. You are alleging that God is the initiator of sin. That is very much the issue. It is not stated in Ephesians, which does spell out God's purpose:

Ephesians 1:10​

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (KJV)​

It does not spell out God ordaining every evil though and action. And that would go against:

James 1:13-14​

3 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (KJV)​

So yes, it is an issue that you claim God is the one who ordained all sin. God did not ordain lust, pride, etc. And your text doesn't say He does. For what purpose was He working in Ephesians? The texts tells us.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:​

And what about those times when people reject God's will for themselves?​

Luke 7:29-30​

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. (NKJV)​

Brightfame52 said:​

man cant reject the will of God for his life, its not possible. Dan 4:35​

​

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?​

​

Thats like saying those men staid His Hand !​

No, the text plainly says they rejected God's will for themselves. It didn't change God's plan. It just hurt themselves.

And that is the same with Nebuchadnezzar. God showed him in Daniel 2 his kingdom would be followed by others.

In Daniel 3 God showed His own power and overruled the judgment of Nebuchadnezzar against those thrown in the fiery furnace.

In Daniel 4 the king was warned against his pride in his kingdom, which God had said would come to an end, back in chapter 2. He went on boasting, and God humbled him.

Daniel 4:27-32​

27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.​

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. 30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? 31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. 32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (KJV)​

Nebuchadnezzar was humbled. It didn't change God's plan. Nebuchadnezzar only hurt himself. In his case, he then acknowledged God, and that He is the one who rules in the kingdom of men.

Some of the Pharisees later ackowledged God too. Acts 15:5 indicates some of the Pharisees believed.

But some didn't. Some continued to reject God's purpose for themselves. It didn't change God's plan. They only hurt themselves.