The Church Will Remain; The Papacy Must Fall

[fide]

The Church Will Remain; The Papacy Must Fall​

Yes, “we have, other times, had ‘bad popes’”. My conclusion drawn from hearing the passages below is that “yes but….”. The papacy has always had a root problem – that is, concupiscence – that will effect (by prophecy, I conclude) the fall of the papacy itself before the End. The petrine dimension of the Church will fall before, but the johannine dimension of His Church will remain even until the Second Coming and the final end of this creation.

We can see two or even three “primacies” in types originating in the Twelve. Jesus shows us a “trinity of primacies” among the Apostles Peter, James and John, gathered in the Transfiguration scene (Mt 17) – window to the Second Coming in Glory. They saw His Glory – and with Him Moses of the Law and Elijah of the pre-Christian prophets. Peter – the type of the petrine dimension in the Church – would have the primacy of governance, the papacy. James, type of the jacobian dimension, the first apostolic martyr, would have the primacy of self-sacrifice in blood after Christ. John – type of the johannine dimension in the Church – has the primacy of divine [agapaō] love – holy supernatural charity – in the Church: John “the Beloved Disciple.”

The johannine and the jacobian dimensions in the Church will remain, but the petrine church will fail and must (according to prophecy) fall at the End, completely corrupted by a false prophet – in apostasy – sitting in the Chair of Peter.


..... Continued at, full essay (Nov. 14, 2024) to be found at : The Church will remain; the Papacy must fall.
On the website: RenewTheChurch.com
Blog / website of R. Thomas Richard.

 

[chevyontheriver]

(Posting In Fellowship)

I don't know... it seems like a common Protestant issue is "Popes sometimes seem to fail at being popes, so that Catholic Church is not valid". I get not wanting to put *too much* emphasis on a Pope, but if Apostolic succession means anything, if the Church being built on Saint Peter means anything, and if the Church's unique claims mean anything... the Papacy probably means something, too.

I think so too.

The weird thing is that I've noticed that when faithful, traditional Catholics put a lot of thought into the Papacy, they get kind of depressed and anxious. Maybe the article has a point; worry less about the Papacy, worry more about following Christ through Mary.

Yes. Pope Francis depressed a lot of us.

I will say that I think, maybe, eventually, Francis might be formally declared to have been an anti-Pope, with Benedict's resignation being deemed invalid or forced. I hope the Catholic Church can and will recover from the damage done by Francis.

The election of Francis was valid, so we end up with a merely but actually bad pope. A pope who in all of his sayings and appointments never got to the point of claiming infallibility. In my opinion he made lots of mistakes, errors, bad decisions, and had even immoral and heretical opinions. He acted very humanly and did a lot of damage. Recovery will be slow.

I have a hunch that someone will smuggle a suitcase nuke into St. Peter's Square some day and blow up the Vatican. That will end the Vatican functionally. Kill the pope. Probably kill the majority of cardinals. But a new pope will be elected, to be located elsewhere. This new pope will be imperfect, as they all have been. But at least the Curia will be cleaned out. We can then have a Jamesian, Johannine, and Petrine office again. The thing will be to be not too shocked when the Vatican blows up, and the turmoil after it. The Church will remain, even be purified, but the papacy will be heavily purified. This is my hunch. It's not a guaranteed anything.

 

[RileyG]

Shall not Christ return and take the keys from the successor of St. Peter? That was always my understanding. This is an interesting article, and I never heard of it before.

 

[fide]

I think so too.

Yes. Pope Francis depressed a lot of us.

The election of Francis was valid, so we end up with a merely but actually bad pope. A pope who in all of his sayings and appointments never got to the point of claiming infallibility. In my opinion he made lots of mistakes, errors, bad decisions, and had even immoral and heretical opinions. He acted very humanly and did a lot of damage. Recovery will be slow.

I have a hunch that someone will smuggle a suitcase nuke into St. Peter's Square some day and blow up the Vatican. That will end the Vatican functionally. Kill the pope. Probably kill the majority of cardinals. But a new pope will be elected, to be located elsewhere. This new pope will be imperfect, as they all have been. But at least the Curia will be cleaned out. We can then have a Jamesian, Johannine, and Petrine office again. The thing will be to be not too shocked when the Vatican blows up, and the turmoil after it. The Church will remain, even be purified, but the papacy will be heavily purified. This is my hunch. It's not a guaranteed anything.

I think the most clever and fruitful seduction of satan and his obedient demons would be to avoid issues of denial of doctrines, and stay with moral ambiguity (who am I to judge?) and enabling (accompany, welcome, embrace immorality and sins of the flesh - against purity - so as to normalize acts of lust and sexual sins) above all. Mother Mary told the children of Fatima that sins of the flesh send more souls to hell than any other. Hence, those are the most profitable in satan's economy of evil. And how sweet must sexual perversion among clergy be to his demons! So many are led to spiritual death so easily!

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think the most clever and fruitful seduction of satan and his obedient demons would be to avoid issues of denial of doctrines, and stay with moral ambiguity (who am I to judge?) and enabling (accompany, welcome, embrace immorality and sins of the flesh - against purity - so as to normalize acts of lust and sexual sins) above all. Mother Mary told the children of Fatima that sins of the flesh send more souls to hell than any other. Hence, those are the most profitable in satan's economy of evil. And how sweet must sexual perversion among clergy be to his demons! So many are led to spiritual death so easily!

These are sins crying out to God. We cannot expect that God will ignore them. There is a debt that will be paid. Paid maybe in reparations or if not that then in destruction.

 

[fide]

These are sins crying out to God. We cannot expect that God will ignore them. There is a debt that will be paid. Paid maybe in reparations or if not that then in destruction.

So many times have the words and direction of our Mother Mary, to the innocent and obedient children of Fatima, pressed upon and pierced my own heart: "Make sacrifices for the poor sinners!" And they did, in their simple acts of self-denial and offerings in holy - yes even in their young and child-like hearts - holy acts of holy charity. I believe we are called to such reparations, that if not many, maybe some, maybe even one, would - enkindled - become enflamed in that holy love to remorse, repentance, and conversion in the merciful grace of God.

 

[fide]

I think so too.

Yes. Pope Francis depressed a lot of us.

The election of Francis was valid, so we end up with a merely but actually bad pope. A pope who in all of his sayings and appointments never got to the point of claiming infallibility. In my opinion he made lots of mistakes, errors, bad decisions, and had even immoral and heretical opinions. He acted very humanly and did a lot of damage. Recovery will be slow.

I have a hunch that someone will smuggle a suitcase nuke into St. Peter's Square some day and blow up the Vatican. That will end the Vatican functionally. Kill the pope. Probably kill the majority of cardinals. But a new pope will be elected, to be located elsewhere. This new pope will be imperfect, as they all have been. But at least the Curia will be cleaned out. We can then have a Jamesian, Johannine, and Petrine office again. The thing will be to be not too shocked when the Vatican blows up, and the turmoil after it. The Church will remain, even be purified, but the papacy will be heavily purified. This is my hunch. It's not a guaranteed anything.

I'd like to add another thought in response to yours - "valid" which is the thought of course held by many, but I believe wrongly - "the election of Francis was valid". Maybe technically valid, in a superficial way, but validity in Truth, in God's sight, presumes a righteousness among the electors which was not there. If the reports of the diseases in the tree are accurate, the fruit of the tree - the election - was predictably bad. Unrighteous, unworthy. Unfit and unfitting. Bishops - successors of the Apostles! - further elevated by men to be "cardinal electors"! - ruler-servants should not be unworthy! Men unfit for the service of God in the Body and Bride of the Incarnate Son, ought not be made rulers! The Church slept while servants of evil wormed their way in not through the Gate of Christ but by deceit, and with carnal ambition rose in power in what never ought to have become a bureaucracy, imitating the Kingdoms of Man.

We early on, forgot and overruled our Master's simple and clear words: Call no man on earth your Father ... you are all brothers.

And now, the bitter fruit of disobedience and neglect is being made painfully obvious. We ought to fall prostrate and repent.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'd like to add another thought in response to yours - "valid" which is the thought of course held by many, but I believe wrongly - "the election of Francis was valid". Maybe technically valid, in a superficial way, but validity in Truth, in God's sight, presumes a righteousness among the electors which was not there. If the reports of the diseases in the tree are accurate, the fruit of the tree - the election - was predictably bad. Unrighteous, unworthy. Unfit and unfitting. Bishops - successors of the Apostles! - further elevated by men to be "cardinal electors"! - ruler-servants should not be unworthy! Men unfit for the service of God in the Body and Bride of the Incarnate Son, ought not be made rulers! The Church slept while servants of evil wormed their way in not through the Gate of Christ but by deceit, and with carnal ambition rose in power in what never ought to have become a bureaucracy, imitating the Kingdoms of Man.

We early on, forgot and overruled our Master's simple and clear words: Call no man on earth your Father ... you are all brothers.

And now, the bitter fruit of disobedience and neglect is being made painfully obvious. We ought to fall prostrate and repent.

I will double down on 'valid' while at the same time doubling down on 'bad'.

Bad of cardinals electing cardinal Bergolio, either acting in ignorance or acting in bad faith. Bad of pope Francis who produced so much bad fruit. That papacy of pope Francis couldn't have been pleasing to Jesus. It was more like an adulterous bride of Christ. No, the Bride of Christ is pure, but the personnel of the Church have been adulterous. No big surprise there, that some personnel of the Church are bent, as we are all bent people.

What about pope Leo? The evidence is coming in. Some bits of evidence look good. Some bits of evidence look bad. Some jurors have formed their opinions already but it's premature to deliver a verdict just yet on whether he is a good or a bad pope.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

The Church Will Remain; The Papacy Must Fall​

Yes, “we have, other times, had ‘bad popes’”. My conclusion drawn from hearing the passages below is that “yes but….”. The papacy has always had a root problem – that is, concupiscence – that will effect (by prophecy, I conclude) the fall of the papacy itself before the End. The petrine dimension of the Church will fall before, but the johannine dimension of His Church will remain even until the Second Coming and the final end of this creation.

We can see two or even three “primacies” in types originating in the Twelve. Jesus shows us a “trinity of primacies” among the Apostles Peter, James and John, gathered in the Transfiguration scene (Mt 17) – window to the Second Coming in Glory. They saw His Glory – and with Him Moses of the Law and Elijah of the pre-Christian prophets. Peter – the type of the petrine dimension in the Church – would have the primacy of governance, the papacy. James, type of the jacobian dimension, the first apostolic martyr, would have the primacy of self-sacrifice in blood after Christ. John – type of the johannine dimension in the Church – has the primacy of divine [agapaō] love – holy supernatural charity – in the Church: John “the Beloved Disciple.”

The johannine and the jacobian dimensions in the Church will remain, but the petrine church will fail and must (according to prophecy) fall at the End, completely corrupted by a false prophet – in apostasy – sitting in the Chair of Peter.


..... Continued at, full essay (Nov. 14, 2024) to be found at : The Church will remain; the Papacy must fall.
On the website: RenewTheChurch.com
Blog / website of R. Thomas Richard.

Ok, fide, now I understand where you got your tortured, circular, rather intentional vague writing style......

 

[Lady Bug]

Try to excuse me for not reading the article but The Church and the Papacy are a packaged deal in Catholicism. You can't have one without the other.

(I don't like making it sound cheap by saying "packaged deal" but it's the best term)

 

[fide]

I will double down on 'valid' while at the same time doubling down on 'bad'.

Bad of cardinals electing cardinal Bergolio, either acting in ignorance or acting in bad faith. Bad of pope Francis who produced so much bad fruit. That papacy of pope Francis couldn't have been pleasing to Jesus. It was more like an adulterous bride of Christ. No, the Bride of Christ is pure, but the personnel of the Church have been adulterous. No big surprise there, that some personnel of the Church are bent, as we are all bent people.

What about pope Leo? The evidence is coming in. Some bits of evidence look good. Some bits of evidence look bad. Some jurors have formed their opinions already but it's premature to deliver a verdict just yet on whether he is a good or a bad pope.

Thank you for the response. If I may ask, do you believe (I use this word carefully, precisely, as in "Does your Faith allow...") that there could ever be not merely a "bad" pope but also, way beyond "bad", a truly evil pope? All "validly," "legally elected" but consciously and intentionally in service to satan himself? Perhaps in fulfillment of the first prophesy in the OP essay posted:

Isa 22:22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Isa 22:23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.
Isa 22:24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.
Isa 22:25 In that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken.”

I agree, trying to discern pope Leo would be premature at this point - but did you read this substack of Gene Thomas Gomulka, who concluded, "Pope Leo XIV is not a heterosexual"?

 

[fide]

Ok, fide, now I understand where you got your tortured, circular, rather intentional vague writing style......

Life, revealing Truth, is full of parables.

 

[fide]

Try to excuse me for not reading the article but The Church and the Papacy are a packaged deal in Catholicism. You can't have one without the other.

(I don't like making it sound cheap by saying "packaged deal" but it's the best term)

Hello Lady Bug. I commend you for holding fast to the Truth that you know - that is very important. Thank you for your comment!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you for the response. If I may ask, do you believe (I use this word carefully, precisely, as in "Does your Faith allow...") that there could ever be not merely a "bad" pope but also, way beyond "bad", a truly evil pope? All "validly," "legally elected" but consciously and intentionally in service to satan himself? Perhaps in fulfillment of the first prophesy in the OP essay posted:

I agree, trying to discern pope Leo would be premature at this point - but did you read this substack of Gene Thomas Gomulka, who concluded, "Pope Leo XIV is not a heterosexual"?

I think there have already been evil popes.

And I have followed the Gomulka articles. I respect his opinions and consider that he might be right about Leo. Or not. Time will tell.

 

[Lady Bug]

Hello Lady Bug. I commend you for holding fast to the Truth that you know - that is very important. Thank you for your comment!

I am thankful that my comment was well-received, lol.

 

[fide]

I think there have already been evil popes.

And I have followed the Gomulka articles. I respect his opinions and consider that he might be right about Leo. Or not. Time will tell.

An evil pope is validly a "Holy Father" in the eyes of God??

I agree, time will tell re: Leo. -- edited to add: and it's already begun to speak.

 

[chevyontheriver]

An evil pope is validly a "Holy Father" in the eyes of God??

I could not call pope Francis a holy anything. And I did not like to say that he was a valid pope even though I maintain he was. I can call him a bad pope, which he also was.

 

[fide]

I could not call pope Francis a holy anything. And I did not like to say that he was a valid pope even though I maintain he was. I can call him a bad pope, which he also was.

OK. I think I understand. These are hard times, and I believe are uniquely so. The Catechism teaches of a time (as I understand it) of great bewilderment, a time of unthinkable impossibilities and contradictions, a world-wide and Church-wide "Dark Night" like unto the spiritual personal ones that forge sanctity and make saints. But promised is one of a scope never seen before, but necessary for the Final Harvest to complete the Redemption. The Catechism prophesies, teaches:

Catechism 677 - The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through [a] final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

In such a time we must trust God, completely, no matter what the final unleashing of evil reveals.

Thank you for your thoughts.