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A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

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I have wondered why God commands us to be baptized. The perspective affects our view on creation and salvation.

To begin to think about this, we must discern between science, which is observable data and narrative, which is an explanation of the data.

The current narrative in science is that light was created first, they call this the Big Bang which emerged from a singularity. The narrative tells us that the Universe is approximately 13 billion years old, and it covers a distance of billions of what are termed “light years”

What does the data say? The age and size of the universe is based on our knowledge of the speed of light, but we do not know the direct speed of light. We know the speed of reflection. No experiment has been designed which is capable of measuring the one way speed of light. An error in our inference can turn out that our beliefs on the age and size of the universe is profoundly wrong.

Our inference tells us that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but that cannot be proven with observational data. Galileo observed that moons orbit Jupiter and Venus orbits the Sun, and we infer that Earth does the same. What does the data say? We see that all celestial bodies appear to be moving away from Earth, and they tell us that it is impossible to find a center of the universe. This is not observation, this is inference


What does God say? He does not say that light was created first. Let there be light was not the beginning of the material universe. Before there was light, darkness was over the face of the deep and the Spirit moved upon the waters. This tells us that water, not light was the first creation.
What does the data say? Water can be found everywhere. The moon, mars, Jupiter’s moons and even the surface of the sun have been observed to contain water. Why would there be water in those places? Hydrogen is very simple, but the other component of water is oxygen, and it is unique among the elements. There is no simple path to form oxygen beginning with elemental hydrogen and nuclear fusion.

God also tells us that the Sun and stars were not formed until the fourth day of creation, yet there was light on the first day. Would we have data to back that up? Yes, computer programs have been written that can subtract all the light from then sun and stars, and the universe still contains a faint glow. Remnant of the light of the first day?

The James Webb telescope also does not show us what we would expect at the beginning of the universe if it came from a singularity of light

What does this mean in terms of salvation? God says that water was created first in creation. When we are baptized, we go back to the beginning and become born again of water.

We also can see that when God had repented of making man upon the Earth, He decided to destroy the Earth with water. In a way bring it back to the beginning and have a “do over”

Water is very important to God in terms of creation. God is Our Father, and He formed the Earth beginning with water, which would make it our mother. God gives us the sign of water in that the woman He chose to be His mother is named Mary, which means water or sea. A sailor is often called a mariner.

Who is the angel of light? He used to be called Lucifer, we know him now as Satan. He thought he was too beautiful and dignified to ever bow down to water. God says He puts enmity between Satan and the woman, light vs water.
This fight carries over even into what we consider science. Satan wants you to think light is the origin, but we know God is the creator and He made water first. When we are baptized, we are submitted ourselves to God. We deny our lofty inferences about creation and submit to Our Lord who made water first, not light

If we free ourselves from our presupposed inferences, the observable data shows Genesis to be more scientifically sound, with the Big Bang and evolution becoming the mythical narrative
 
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eleos1954

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Water was not created first in the literal sense, but was already present in the "formless deep" at the start of creation. God then organized and shaped the existing water by separating it to form the sky and the seas on the second and third days.
The formless deep represents the antithesis of God's order. It is a state of chaos and darkness from which God brings light and life
 
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St_Worm2

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I have wondered why God commands us to be baptized.
Hello Boughtwithaprice, I don't have time to discuss your entire thread right now, but I will answer your first question with the following from the CCC, since this is the Denominational Theology board and your "denomination" is the Roman Catholic Church.

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein ) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with Him, as "a new creature."

More to come later (Dv)!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - question, why did you pick this particular board, Denominational Specific Theology, for this thread? Thanks :)
 
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Water was not created first in the literal sense, but was already present in the "formless deep" at the start of creation. God then organized and shaped the existing water by separating it to form the sky and the seas on the second and third days.
The formless deep represents the antithesis of God's order. It is a state of chaos and darkness from which God brings light and life
Water is matter, which is created by God, as water is not God. It was present before the creation of the Earth and even light itself, but it was not eternally existent as God Himself
We do not call it the antithesis of God’s order, it was just present at the start of creation.
There is no chaos in water. In the absence of light from which comes heat, water is highly structured. It is crystalline ice.
Depending on the amount present, water is capable of extreme force in manipulating other matter. Just try to go to the bottom of the Marinas trench, or even try to visit the wreck of the titanic. Water was a very ordered way to bring about creation
God starts with a solid ball of ice approximately 6 billion miles thick. Yes I am speculating, as I was not there, but the process can be imagined from known observations. God said let there be light and water begins to melt. The light of the first day is enough to melt all the water.
Since ice is structured, there do not exist the extreme pressures that are present with liquid water. Once liquified the pressures quickly rise to astronomical levels. The second day describes the firmament which divides the waters. At extreme hydraulic pressure, hydrogen forms into a metal. The word of God says that He formed the firmament. As the light of the fist day continues to orbit the water in 24hr cycles, the water dissipates into space. The Earth was formed in the center protected by the firmament
As the water dissipates into space, the pressure is relieved and the metallic hydrogen firmament also dissipates. Metallic hydrogen becomes a gas and we see hydrogen as the most abundant element in the universe. What remains in the Earth is our atmosphere.
The light of the first day was only necessary to melt the water, and after three days, has fulfilled its purpose and begins to dissipate. God formed the sun and the stars on the fourth day

I do not see water as the antithesis of God’s order, rather a demonstration of His great power and glory, before which I am completely humbled.
 
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Hello Boughtwithaprice, I don't have time to discuss your entire thread right now, but I will answer your first question with the following from the CCC, since this is the Denominational Theology board and your "denomination" is the Roman Catholic Church.

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein ) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with Him, as "a new creature."

More to come later (Dv)!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - question, why did you pick this particular board, Denominational Specific Theology, for this thread? Thanks :)
I picked it to allow all those that call themselves Christian to discuss this topic. I did not want limitations of denominations to restrict discussion, but it is here in theology, as non Christian opinion is not necessary for this topic, but if interested, non Christians can come and read the thread but are prevented from debating

Thanks for the question
 
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St_Worm2

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I did not want limitations of denominations to restrict discussion.....
Hello again Broughtwithaprice, the principal purpose of this board is to give us a place to compare/discuss/debate the various beliefs (or limitations) that are specific to each denomination and/or church (thus the name of the board, Denomination Specific Theology), just FYI.

Moving on to question #2 (of mine), where does the Bible tell us that Satan was referred to as an "angel of light"?

2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that he masquerades as one in an attempt to deceive us, but I don't believe that he is ever referred to as such (he was referred to as a "morning star/son of the dawn" prior to his departure and fall from God .. Isaiah 14:12). Also, the Lord Jesus is referred to as the "~Bright~ Morning Star" in Revelation22:16.

God is described by only three nouns in the Bible, God is spirit, God is love, God is light, but I don't believe that any angel is given that specific title, "angel of light", that is (though I suspect that the Apostle is speaking in 2 Cor 11:14 of the whole of the "holy" or "elect" angels who did not/will not fall like Satan and his demons did).

Assuming that is the case (that an "angel of light" refers to the holy/elect angels of God), why do you think that they were given that name by the Apostle Paul? Did they "glow" in some way, or do you think that he meant something else by it?

Thanks!

Sadly, I am out of time again.

God bless you!!

--David
 
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eleos1954

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Water is matter, which is created by God, as water is not God. It was present before the creation of the Earth and even light itself, but it was not eternally existent as God Himself
We do not call it the antithesis of God’s order, it was just present at the start of creation.
There is no chaos in water. In the absence of light from which comes heat, water is highly structured. It is crystalline ice.
Depending on the amount present, water is capable of extreme force in manipulating other matter. Just try to go to the bottom of the Marinas trench, or even try to visit the wreck of the titanic. Water was a very ordered way to bring about creation
God starts with a solid ball of ice approximately 6 billion miles thick. Yes I am speculating, as I was not there, but the process can be imagined from known observations. God said let there be light and water begins to melt. The light of the first day is enough to melt all the water.
Since ice is structured, there do not exist the extreme pressures that are present with liquid water. Once liquified the pressures quickly rise to astronomical levels. The second day describes the firmament which divides the waters. At extreme hydraulic pressure, hydrogen forms into a metal. The word of God says that He formed the firmament. As the light of the fist day continues to orbit the water in 24hr cycles, the water dissipates into space. The Earth was formed in the center protected by the firmament
As the water dissipates into space, the pressure is relieved and the metallic hydrogen firmament also dissipates. Metallic hydrogen becomes a gas and we see hydrogen as the most abundant element in the universe. What remains in the Earth is our atmosphere.
The light of the first day was only necessary to melt the water, and after three days, has fulfilled its purpose and begins to dissipate. God formed the sun and the stars on the fourth day

I do not see water as the antithesis of God’s order, rather a demonstration of His great power and glory, before which I am completely humbled.
the earth's initial state during creation as a desolate, chaotic, and uninhabitable wasteland awaiting God's creative work to bring order and life. It signifies a sterile, shapeless mass of matter without life or distinguishing features, which God then progressively shaped and filled over six days.
 
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Hello again Broughtwithaprice, the principal purpose of this board is to give us a place to compare/discuss/debate the various beliefs (or limitations) that are specific to each denomination and/or church (thus the name of the board, Denomination Specific Theology), just FYI.

Moving on to question #2 (of mine), where does the Bible tell us that Satan was referred to as an "angel of light"?

2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that he masquerades as one in an attempt to deceive us, but I don't believe that he is ever referred to as such (he was referred to as a "morning star/son of the dawn" prior to his departure and fall from God .. Isaiah 14:12). Also, the Lord Jesus is referred to as the "~Bright~ Morning Star" in Revelation22:16.

God is described by only three nouns in the Bible, God is spirit, God is love, God is light, but I don't believe that any angel is given that specific title, "angel of light", that is (though I suspect that the Apostle is speaking in 2 Cor 11:14 of the whole of the "holy" or "elect" angels who did not/will not fall like Satan and his demons did).

Assuming that is the case (that an "angel of light" refers to the holy/elect angels of God), why do you think that they were given that name by the Apostle Paul? Did they "glow" in some way, or do you think that he meant something else by it?

Thanks!

Sadly, I am out of time again.

God bless you!!

--David
His name was Lucifer which is light bearer. His sin was pride in that he wanted all beauty and power to himself apart from God. Satan values his own status above that of the humility required by God

Jesus, who is God, did not think equality with God something to be grasped. He emptied Himself and became a servant of all

God is the source of light, but He tells us in His word that darkness was over the face of the deep. He says He created water first, then moved on it by means of light
Satan is the enemy of the woman, who is Mary, and does not want to serve God’s creation as He commands, rather Satan wants all creation to bow to him. His rebel statement was we will not serve.

As far as denomination specific theology, I am discussing baptism, which is a required sacrament in the Catholic Church. There is no excuse to voluntarily shun baptism. Other denominations do not hold the sacrament in the same high esteem. I offer this thread as perspective on the need for baptism

When we see God’s command for humility, the fact that He created water first, and that we are to be born again of water and the spirit, this thread would give reason for the necessity of baptism and make arguments against it suspect.
Why would we dishonor God by demanding that He save us, if we will not perform a simple act of humility and allow ourselves to be cleansed with the substance of God’s first creation ?
The Catholic Church did not make up baptism, Jesus commanded it of His Apostles
 
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the earth's initial state during creation as a desolate, chaotic, and uninhabitable wasteland awaiting God's creative work to bring order and life. It signifies a sterile, shapeless mass of matter without life or distinguishing features, which God then progressively shaped and filled over six days.
Where does the word say chaos? It says the Earth was without form, as it had not yet been created. The Bible does not say that the water was in chaos.
Why do you interpret order from chaos? Could it not be order from another form of order?
At each point of Creation, God says He looked upon what He had made and pronounced it good
 
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eleos1954

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Where does the word say chaos? It says the Earth was without form, as it had not yet been created. The Bible does not say that the water was in chaos.
Why do you interpret order from chaos? Could it not be order from another form of order?
At each point of Creation, God says He looked upon what He had made and pronounced it good
  • The biblical text in Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as having no form and being empty or a waste.

  • The original Hebrew words tohu (formless) and bohu (void) indicate a lack of order and substance.
 
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David Lamb

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  • The biblical text in Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as having no form and being empty or a waste.

  • The original Hebrew words tohu (formless) and bohu (void) indicate a lack of order and substance.
True, but formless and void don't mean chaotic. The idea that a God of order would create a chaotic earth doesn't make sense.
 
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  • The biblical text in Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as having no form and being empty or a waste.

  • The original Hebrew words tohu (formless) and bohu (void) indicate a lack of order and substance.
The Earth was without form. That is a given, because the water was present before its creation. The Hebrew words tohu and bohu refer to the Earth. They do not refer to the waters
It is reasonable to infer that water in a vacuum with no light, and therefore not heat existed as a large ball of ice.
God creates ex nihilo, which is out of nothing, because He is the creator. He does not bring order out of chaos, as He is not a referee. He is who was, now is, and is to come, the Almighty. He creates good, and sin brought chaos.

I understand what you are trying to say, but those thoughts come from the societal programming that say we need to look at Genesis as allegory and not fact. I propose Genesis as fact and not allegory. Actually , the more we discover about science, the less that the Big Bang with evolution story makes sense. It takes more of a leap of faith to believe it than resting in God’s truth

Much of what is science hinges on narrative or what could be termed, “spinning yarns around the camp fire” if we stay ignorant, it seems plausible, but the more we look deeply into the data available to us about life and the universe, the less it becomes it seems reasonable
 
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eleos1954

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True, but formless and void don't mean chaotic. The idea that a God of order would create a chaotic earth doesn't make sense.
He did and then He made it orderly .... made it habitable through His creative power.
 
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He did and then He made it orderly .... made it habitable through His creative power.
We seem to be getting hung up on semantics, which is “hair splitting”, but it is important hair splitting, much like the not one iota from the Nicene council or Our Lord saying not one jot or tittle will pass from the law


Chaos implies that a creature or created thing is unruly or implies disobedience as a teacher taking charge of a chaotic classroom. Even in game theory, the chaotic alignment was associated more with evil than good. I do not associate almighty God with chaos, as He is all good and all Holy.

What God creates is all good, and His creative process is all good. On the Sabbath day, He rested and proclaimed His creation as very good.

It is because God wants His creatures to be free, that He gave us free will and allowed His creation to choose to freely love or freely rebel, that chaos and sin entered the world

Satan likes to call God a tyrant, because unless we choose to obey Him, we are cast out of heaven. That is not true and is the lie that ensnares so many souls.
It is precisely why God is not a tyrant that we have sin and chao. Satan says what good is a will if we can’t use it? We want to choose for ourselves and not be forced to choose God.
God says ok, I will not force you to choose me. I have created this magnificent universe all for your benefit and joy, but you want to rebel and go off on your own? So be it.
I don’t know where you are going to go, as I created everything for you, but if you reject me, you must reject all I have made. Where is there a place for you? How can you exist without me, who am the author of all existence?
The angels rebelled with full knowledge and hence are eternally damned. God grants that humans were deceived and did not know what they were doing. He made Satan the enemy of the woman, Mary, who is named after water, the first creation, and our redeemer Jesus was born through her. God calls us back by dying for us Himself. The good news is we have to opportunity to accept or reject the offer.

If we reject baptism, we reject the humility that God has demonstrated for us to follow, and demand that He honor light over water, His first creation. That carries the pride of Satan

If we refuse to honor Mary and reject her motherhood, we demand that God disobey His own command for Himself that he commanded of us to honor our father and mother.
How could we demand that God dishonor His own mother and place us, who are mere sinners deserving of death, either equal to or above her?
That is absurd, as we would ask God to reject His mother, and honor us who deserve no honor instead. Jesus says we must be as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Children of God obey His commands and honor their Father and mother. We love one another and serve one another as Our Lord desires and commands. If ever the thought of rebellion occurs, we remember the words of Peter. Lord, where else would we go? You alone have the words of eternal life
 
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eleos1954

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We seem to be getting hung up on semantics, which is “hair splitting”, but it is important hair splitting, much like the not one iota from the Nicene council or Our Lord saying not one jot or tittle will pass from the law


Chaos implies that a creature or created thing is unruly or implies disobedience as a teacher taking charge of a chaotic classroom. Even in game theory, the chaotic alignment was associated more with evil than good. I do not associate almighty God with chaos, as He is all good and all Holy.

What God creates is all good, and His creative process is all good. On the Sabbath day, He rested and proclaimed His creation as very good.

It is because God wants His creatures to be free, that He gave us free will and allowed His creation to choose to freely love or freely rebel, that chaos and sin entered the world

Satan likes to call God a tyrant, because unless we choose to obey Him, we are cast out of heaven. That is not true and is the lie that ensnares so many souls.
It is precisely why God is not a tyrant that we have sin and chao. Satan says what good is a will if we can’t use it? We want to choose for ourselves and not be forced to choose God.
God says ok, I will not force you to choose me. I have created this magnificent universe all for your benefit and joy, but you want to rebel and go off on your own? So be it.
I don’t know where you are going to go, as I created everything for you, but if you reject me, you must reject all I have made. Where is there a place for you? How can you exist without me, who am the author of all existence?
The angels rebelled with full knowledge and hence are eternally damned. God grants that humans were deceived and did not know what they were doing. He made Satan the enemy of the woman, Mary, who is named after water, the first creation, and our redeemer Jesus was born through her. God calls us back by dying for us Himself. The good news is we have to opportunity to accept or reject the offer.

If we reject baptism, we reject the humility that God has demonstrated for us to follow, and demand that He honor light over water, His first creation. That carries the pride of Satan

If we refuse to honor Mary and reject her motherhood, we demand that God disobey His own command for Himself that he commanded of us to honor our father and mother.
How could we demand that God dishonor His own mother and place us, who are mere sinners deserving of death, either equal to or above her?
That is absurd, as we would ask God to reject His mother, and honor us who deserve no honor instead. Jesus says we must be as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Children of God obey His commands and honor their Father and mother. We love one another and serve one another as Our Lord desires and commands. If ever the thought of rebellion occurs, we remember the words of Peter. Lord, where else would we go? You alone have the words of eternal life
without form and void," unorganized, desolate, and dark body of water waiting for God to structure and fill it during the six days of creation. Notice God don't call anything good until He creates the earth to be habitable.

"Good" (tov):
In Genesis, the Hebrew word tov (יטב) is used to describe individual acts of creation, like the separation of land and sea or the creation of plant life. Tov can mean fitting, ordered, or properly functioning.
Tohuvabohu is a word of Hebrew origin, derived from the phrase tohu wa-bohu, meaning "without form and void" or "chaos and utter confusion". It describes a state of shapelessness, emptiness, and disorder. The phrase is famously found in the biblical account of creation in Genesis, describing the earth before God's intervention.

Chaos definition


cha·os
complete disorder and confusion.

Water baptism does not save a person.

Salvation is by Grace:
salvation is a free gift from God, received by grace through faith, not by performing acts or rituals.

Baptism is a symbol or outward sign of an inward spiritual reality, not a magical act that imparts salvation.

Mary is seen as a human woman and a model of faith and obedience to God. Her role as the mother of Jesus is acknowledged, but she is not considered divine or special beyond her human experience and cooperation with God.
she was a great Christian woman but no different from the rest of humanity. She was a woman of humility and noble character, but she was not perfect. She was a sinner like the rest of humanity therefore, Jesus came to die for her sins as well as all of humanity.
 
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