Take a stand on political violence

[iluvatar5150]

Karl Rove, Turdblossom as Bush fondly named him, has a interesting, in a good way, take on this:

​

​

[T]here has been a disturbing and growing undercurrent in our national conversation and on the internet, a pronounced emphasis on “they” and “them.” Charlie would be alive but for “them.” “They” killed him. “They” are responsible for his death. “They” must be made to pay.​

​

No. Charlie Kirk wasn’t killed by “them.” “They” didn’t pull the trigger. One person did, apparently a young man driven by impulse and a terrible hate. If there were a “they” involved, law enforcement would find “them” and the justice system would hold “them” accountable. But “he” and “him” are the correct pronouns for this horrendous act….​

​

Using Charlie’s murder to justify retaliation against political rivals is wrong and dangerous. It will further divide and embitter our country. No good thing will come of it.​

​

lol, karl rove

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Not sure whether a side is more prone to violence but the right has demonstrably been .more violent over the last 15 years or so when it comes to political violence.

I would love to see how that was established. What did they say were valid political violent situations and what wasn't? Did they include all those protests and riots that occur in major cities after groups of people disagree with the government's policies? Those seem like they are becoming a weekly thing here in the US. People protesting about the way the Palestinians are treated, people protesting about the DOGE results, those protesting about ROE v Wade being overturned and so on. There were arrests made in all of those protests.

 

[DaisyDay]

lol, karl rove

Yeah, but his take was calm and sensible.

 

[rambot]

I would love to see how that was established. What did they say were valid political violent situations and what wasn't? Did they include all those protests and riots that occur in major cities after groups of people disagree with the government's policies? Those seem like they are becoming a weekly thing here in the US. People protesting about the way the Palestinians are treated, people protesting about the DOGE results, those protesting about ROE v Wade being overturned and so on. There were arrests made in all of those protests.

Pull up ANY FBI research since 2016.

In a different thread I was a bit clearer: Right wing political murders (or attempts) and violence of THAT type is far more common on the right side than the left.

Demonstrations and protests? That's the left; for sure. But I'm not comfortable (as much of a copout as this is going to be...don't really care) with blanket comments that ALL the violence at BLM protest were carried out in the name OF BLM. It's well known that there were a lot of "agitators" (NOT counter protesters). I remember some fascinating video early on where a guy dressed all shady and with an umbrella went around smashing windows in while the protests just up the street wasn't a part of it. Plenty of other examples from that time.

Yes the left protests a lot. But there are right wing protests too; though not as many.

 

[Bradskii]

I suppose that fundamentally this is the thing that I'm questioning... the validity of some so-called 'social contract'. With all due respect to the powers that be, my assent to it is tacit only. Neither do I accept that it has any authority beyond that which I personally choose to give it, regardless of whether or not someone has the power to impose it on me.

The concept of a social contract implies that it's it imposed by any 'powers that be'. It's something to which we individually agree. What you consider to be the boundaries are set by you.

Don't confuse this with a call for anarchy, it's not. It's simply to point out that there are certain truths that we hold to be self-evident and that foremost among them is the right of the abused to oppose their abuser. It's not enough to simply assert that the right to vote constitutes the limit of my right to oppose injustice under the auspices of some so-called social contract.

Again, I agree. And again I'll point out that there will be individual limits as to what we consider to be appropriate action to perceived abuse. Shooting someone because we don't like what he says shouldn'teven be up for discussion. Personally speaking I think that smacking him upside the head is out of order. Your mileagage may vary.

I assert that the right of the abused to oppose their abuser supersedes any supposed social contract, and that I can't expect to set boundaries on what others may do in defense of that right.

Fair enough. But I reserve the right to nominate those boundaries as as I see fit. The question then might arise as to what we would individually do if we saw someone beating up a woman. She might have verbally abused him. Do you assert his right to physically respond?

As I pointed out earlier, people are crazy. They won't always respond as passively as we want them to. The consequence of that is that people will cross boundaries that we don't think that they should, but it's not for me to say whether that response is inappropriate or not... I'm not walking in their shoes.

Again, I reserve the right to make that determination. And I'll note that you say that it's not for you to say whether their response is appropriate, but preceed that with the comment that 'people will cross boundaries that we don't think that they should'. There's a contradiction there.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Timeline of America's political violence dating back to 2011​

From here: MSN

If you think that ALL political violence is wrong, whichever side of the political fence you are, then just say so. Don't pick and choose. Don't comment on individual examples. Don't rate them or excuse them. Don't blame any one person or group. Just say that it's wrong. Please let's all get on the same page.

Jan. 8, 2011-- 6 killed, 13 others including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords wounded in Tucson shooting​

Six people were killed and 13 others wounded, including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, during a constituent meeting outside a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona. Giffords, a Democrat, was shot in the head at point-blank range, critically injuring her, before the shooter unleashed a spray of bullets. Giffords survived the shooting.

June 14, 2017 -- Rep. Steve Scalise shot during congressional baseball game practice​

Four people were shot -- including then-House majority whip and Louisiana Republican Rep. Steve Scalise -- when a gunman opened fire on Republicans practicing for a congressional baseball game at Eugene Simpson Stadium Park in Alexandria, Virginia.

Oct. 8, 2020 -- 13 men arrested for plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer​

Thirteen members of a militia group were arrested and charged for planning to storm the Michigan statehouse, kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and start a civil war.

Jan. 6, 2021 -- January 6 attack on the US Capitol, pipe bombs at RNC and DNC​

A mob of pro-Trump protestors stormed the U.S. Capitol as lawmakers met to ratify the results of the 2020 election on Jan. 6, 2021.

Feb. 14, 2022 -- Kentucky mayoral candidate targeted in attempted shooting​

While running for office, Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg was the target of an attempted shooting at his campaign headquarters. No one was injured in the incident.

Oct. 28, 2022 -- Paul Pelosi attacked with hammer in his home​

Former Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi, was attacked with a hammer in their San Francisco home. David DePape was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole in a state trial over the attack. He had broken into the Pelosi home seeking to hold the then-speaker hostage.

Dec. 4, 2023 to Jan. 3, 2024 -- New Mexico state legislature candidate orchestrates shootings, murder for hire​

A New Mexico man who ran for the state legislature as a Republican and lost his bid is serving an 80 year prison sentence for allegedly orchestrating attacks at the homes of four Democratic lawmakers. No one was injured in his attempts.

June 13, 2024 -- 1st attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Then-Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, after a gunman opened fire from the roof of a nearby building.

Sept. 15, 2024 -- 2nd attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Trump faced a second assassination attempt at the Trump International Gold Club in West Palm Beach, Florida. Prosecutors said suspect Ryan Wesley Routh allegedly put together a plan, including purchasing a military-grade weapon, researching Trump's movements and using a dozen burner phones in an alleged attempt to kill Trump based on political grievances.

Oct. 6, 2024 -- Kamala Harris campaign office in Arizona shot at 3 times in a month​

An office shared by then-Vice President Kamala Harris' presidential campaign and the Democratic Party in Tempe, Arizona, was damaged by gunfire three times in less than a month, according to police.

Dec. 4, 2024 -- Murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson​

UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson died after being shot multiple times at point-blank range by a gunman outside a Manhattan hotel, according to police. The shooter appeared to have been lying in wait at the hotel where he shot Thompson, authorities said.

April 13, 2025 -- Arson at Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence​

A mechanic who has expressed disdain for Democrats on social media was arrested for starting a fire at Democratic Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence.

May 21, 2025 -- Killing of two Israeli embassy staffers in Washington, D.C.​

Two Israeli embassy staffers were shot and killed while exiting an event at the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C.

June 1, 2025 -- 13 people injured in Colorado firebombing attack, 1 later dies​

A man threw Molotov cocktails during a pro-Israel demonstration in Boulder, Colorado, injuring 13, authorities said. One person later died of their injuries.

June 14, 2025
-- Minnesota lawmaker shootings​

A masked gunman disguised as a police officer shot and killed Minnesota state Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark in their home, Gov. Tim Walz said.

Aug. 8, 2025 -- Shooting at CDC headquarters​

A police officer was killed when a gunman opened fire near the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) headquarters and the Emory University campus in Atlanta, authorities said. Suspect Patrick Joseph White had blamed the COVID-19 vaccine for making him sick and depressed, according to law enforcement. He had increasingly focused on the vaccine as a source of his grievances, they noted. He was found dead after the shooting, officials said.

Sept. 10, 2025 -- Shooting of Charlie Kirk​

Charlie Kirk, the founder of the conservative youth activist organization Turning Point USA, was fatally shot during an event at Utah Valley University on Wednesday. President Donald Trump confirmed Kirk’s death on social media.

I remember a poster once saying that they had to put people on their ignore list because some of the things people say made him want to punch them in the face. I am glad to see this thread is full of people who honor freedom of speech so much that they would never threaten physical violence, much less actually use physical violence to silence others no matter how offensive it may be. Keep up the good work.

 

[Bradskii]

I remember a poster once saying that they had to put people on their ignore list because some of the things people say made him want to punch them in the face. I am glad to see this thread is full of people who honor freedom of speech so much that they would never threaten physical violence, much less actually use physical violence to silence others no matter how offensive it may be. Keep up the good work.

The day I actually threaten someone with violence, let alone actually commit violence on someone for something that they said I'll be sure to let you know. The last time I hit anyone was in third grade. In self defence. Before getting the snot beaten out of me.

Putting someone on ignore is the forum equivalent of walking away from someone in a bar so that you don't have to listen to their gutter level garbage and risk doing something that you'll regret.

Hey, that was quite a fatuous post but at least it gave me the opportunity to relive some happy schoolyard memories. Ah, the best days of one's life...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

The day I actually threaten someone with violence, let alone actually commit violence on someone for something that they said I'll be sure to let you know. The last time I hit anyone was in third grade. In self defence. Before getting the snot beaten out of me.

Putting someone on ignore is the forum equivalent of walking away from someone in a bar so that you don't have to listen to their gutter level garbage and risk doing something that you'll regret.

Hey, that was quite a fatuous post but at least it gave me the opportunity to relive some happy schoolyard memories. Ah, the best days of one's life...

I guess you dont like compliments.

 

[friend of]

Those were the best days of my life!

Back in the summer of... 1869!

Ah, the best days of one's life...

 

[Perpetual Student]

The problem is not the guns nor the violence, but rather the steady erosion of the Christian culture that used to underpin the discussion. The partisan unreasonableness of both sides in American tribal warfare today is a case in point. You have lost your common ground.

This is nonsense.

This chart compares the homicide rate of different countries . The difference between the USA and other western industrialized nations is staggering. Japan and the Scandinavian countries are the most i-religious in the world and have the lowest crime rates and homicide rates in the world.

Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

If you were doubting, that long bar at the top is the USA.

And within the USA the same pattern exists:

Homicide Mortality

Map of deaths by homicide per 100,000 total population for each state

www.cdc.gov

The highest homicide rate is in the Bible Belt.

If anything, from these facts I would conclude that at the very least that an absence of christianity does not causes violence or that christianity does not prevent it.

 

[mindlight]

This is nonsense.

This chart compares the homicide rate of different countries . The difference between the USA and other western industrialized nations is staggering. Japan and the Scandinavian countries are the most i-religious in the world and have the lowest crime rates and homicide rates in the world.

Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

If you were doubting, that long bar at the top is the USA.

And within the USA the same pattern exists:

Homicide Mortality

Map of deaths by homicide per 100,000 total population for each state

www.cdc.gov

View attachment 370327

The highest homicide rate is in the Bible Belt.

If anything, from these facts I would conclude that at the very least that an absence of christianity does not causes violence or that christianity does not prevent it.

As said before, (you ripped a quote out of its context), Americans have not given the state a monopoly of force, and you will always live in a violent culture so long as this is the case. The freedoms you take for granted are maintained by the constitutionally guaranteed threat of violence implicit in the population - it is a larger discussion than one just of just restricting gun ownership. Politically motivated crimes are, however, statistically rare; the vast majority of gun crimes have nothing to do with politics. Suicides are a major problem. Murders are mainly young male, black on black violence in the cities and often related to gang warfare. Most victims have criminal records. None of that violence has much to do with faith.

True Christianity moderates the numbers and limits the usage of firearms to self-defence (again, statistically, firearms are not mainly used for this purpose), but the idea that everyone in the Bible belt is a Christian is an erroneous one. Indeed, where the light is most intense, so also is the darkness. Also, black culture in the three southern states where the numbers are highest is wounded by history in a way that more prosperous states elsewhere have not suffered. The numbers in New Mexico are inflated by drug gangs, also.

The murder of Charlie Kirk was by a mentally delusional white man who acted out of distinctly non-Christian motives in defence of a gay/trans relationship and arguably in reaction to the culture of an imperfect Christian family. Black sheep like that might even be included in church membership stats, and they make the Christian stats look bad, but they have nothing to do with true faith. True faith moderates the number of deaths.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The highest homicide rate is in the Bible Belt.

If anything, from these facts I would conclude that at the very least that an absence of christianity does not causes violence or that christianity does not prevent it.

just recently, Pew put out a map of states by religiosity. It does have a lot of similarities. Utah and SD being something of outliers. Utah perhaps for obvious reasons.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The murder of Charlie Kirk was by a mentally delusional white man who acted out of distinctly non-Christian motives in defence of a gay/trans relationship and arguably in reaction to the culture of an imperfect Christian family. Black sheep like that might even be included in church membership stats, and they make the Christian stats look bad, but they have nothing to do with true faith. True faith moderates the number of deaths.

THere has been no reporting that the alleged shooter (Tyler Robinson) suffers from any mental illness or delusion.

 

[friend of]

THere has been no reporting that the alleged shooter (Tyler Robinson) suffers from any mental illness or delusion.

Okay, so are you arguing it's perfectly normal to kill people you disagree with?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Okay, so are you arguing it's perfectly normal to kill people you disagree with?

It's unusual, but it's not a sign of mental illness. Otherwise it might be hard to get convictions for murder.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Okay, so are you arguing it's perfectly normal to kill people you disagree with?

And where do you get that? I only noted that there are no *reports* of mental illness. (Though even his parents have not to my knowledge used "mental illness" as a way to soften what their son apparently diid.) I made no comments about it killing anyone or any justification that might be offered to excuse it.

Don't put words in my mouth "friend".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

THere has been no reporting that the alleged shooter (Tyler Robinson) suffers from any mental illness or delusion.

Alleged Charlie Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson played ‘Furry Shades of Gay’ porn video games online: report

On multiple gaming and online platforms, Robinson reportedly used the account name “craftin247.”

nypost.com

His online proclivities would suggest that there was probably some need for a "check-up from the neck up" as the saying goes.

A role playing game depicting inter-species erotica
Watching content on channels known for making pedophilia-adjacent anime
Animated erotica depicting morbidly obese people being fed


Normal people don't watch that kind of stuff.

 

[friend of]

Alleged Charlie Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson played ‘Furry Shades of Gay’ porn video games online: report

On multiple gaming and online platforms, Robinson reportedly used the account name “craftin247.”

nypost.com

His online proclivities would suggest that there was probably some need for a "check-up from the neck up" as the saying goes.

A role playing game depicting inter-species erotica
Watching content on channels known for making pedophilia-adjacent anime
Animated erotica depicting morbidly obese people being fed


Normal people don't watch that kind of stuff.

Just another mentally ill Liberal who thinks killing people is the solution.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Alleged Charlie Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson played ‘Furry Shades of Gay’ porn video games online: report

On multiple gaming and online platforms, Robinson reportedly used the account name “craftin247.”

nypost.com

His online proclivities would suggest that there was probably some need for a "check-up from the neck up" as the saying goes.

A role playing game depicting inter-species erotica
Watching content on channels known for making pedophilia-adjacent anime
Animated erotica depicting morbidly obese people being fed


Normal people don't watch that kind of stuff.

That is not a mental illness. It is a fetish. No more "odd" than the deep need to post contrary material over and over and over, Mr. Centrist.

 

[mindlight]

THere has been no reporting that the alleged shooter (Tyler Robinson) suffers from any mental illness or delusion.

Support of transexuality is a mentally deluded position informed by a culture of lies and prejudice against Christian values. The assertion of psychological identity over biological and revealed identity is madness. Can a sane person hold a mad position? I guess this does happen.