Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Wrong. How could he have been born again yet at that time when he didn't even understand what it meant to be born again? Why are you okay with just making things up and denying obvious truth like this?

Nobody knows when they are born again, or understands it. Its a spiritual miracle in the heart and subconscious.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He Loved the elect in the world

That's not what it says. It says He loved the world. And the context shows that the world included those who were in spiritual darkness. A vast majority of the world was in spiritual darkness before Jesus came. As Paul said, the Gentiles were "without God in the world" before Jesus came and shed His blood to bring them near (Ephesians 2:11-13). That's why Jesus came. How can you not know that? You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Nobody knows when they are born again, or understands it. Its a spiritual miracle in the heart and subconscious.

That is not true. I was fully aware when I was born again because I became much more aware of things spiritually than I was before. When you are born again, you know it. You can't have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and not be aware of it afterwards. Are you kidding me here?

 

[Brightfame52]

That's not what it says. It says He loved the world. And the context shows that the world included those who were in spiritual darkness. A vast majority of the world was in spiritual darkness before Jesus came. As Paul said, the Gentiles were "without God in the world" before Jesus came and shed His blood to bring them near (Ephesians 2:11-13). That's why Jesus came. How can you not know that? You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

Its what it means, He Loved His own in the world Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is not true. I was fully aware when I was born again because I became much more aware of things spiritually than I was before. When you are born again, you know it. You can't have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and not be aware of it afterwards. Are you kidding me here?

Yes its true.I dont count your experience in this matter

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Its what it means, He Loved His own in the world Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The context of John 3:16-19 includes those in spiritual darkness in the world that God so loved. You are completely ignoring the context of verses like John 3:16. Bringing up another verse that talks about Jesus loving His own in the world does not change the fact that God loves everyone in the world enough to give them the opportunity to have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Do you think "the world" that God so loved is not the same as "the world" that the light came into? If so, you would be wrong. If you do understand that "the world" referenced in John 3:16 is the same as "the world" referenced in John 3:19, then you should understand that "the world" that the light came into in John 3:19 includes those who were in spiritual darkness, but they loved the darkness more than the light that they were exposed to. So, the context of "the world" in John 3:16 and John 3:19 includes those who are in spiritual darkness and love the darkness rather than the light. You and I were once in spiritual darkness ourselves, so God sent Jesus to die for us and everyone in spiritual darkness in order to bring light to us and give us the opportunity for eternal life.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes its true.I dont count your experience in this matter

It's not true and you have nothing to back it up. How can you think that someone can have the Holy Spirit in them and not even know it? You can't be taken seriously. When someone receives the Holy Spirit and is born again they start to see things differently in a spiritual sense. You know that it has taken place because of your new perspective. It makes me wonder about you that you don't understand this. Have you never had the realization that the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in you? Has your perspective of things never changed?

 

[Brightfame52]

The context of John 3:16-19 includes those in spiritual darkness in the world that God so loved. You are completely ignoring the context of verses like John 3:16. Bringing up another verse that talks about Jesus loving His own in the world does not change the fact that God loves everyone in the world enough to give them the opportunity to have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Do you think "the world" that God so loved is not the same as "the world" that the light came into? If so, you would be wrong. If you do understand that "the world" referenced in John 3:16 is the same as "the world" referenced in John 3:19, then you should understand that "the world" that the light came into in John 3:19 includes those who were in spiritual darkness, but they loved the darkness more than the light that they were exposed to. So, the context of "the world" in John 3:16 and John 3:19 includes those who are in spiritual darkness and love the darkness rather than the light. You and I were once in spiritual darkness ourselves, so God sent Jesus to die for us and everyone in spiritual darkness in order to bring light to us and give us the opportunity for eternal life.

He only love his own in the world

 

[Brightfame52]

It's not true and you have nothing to back it up. How can you think that someone can have the Holy Spirit in them and not even know it? You can't be taken seriously. When someone receives the Holy Spirit and is born again they start to see things differently in a spiritual sense. You know that it has taken place because of your new perspective. It makes me wonder about you that you don't understand this. Have you never had the realization that the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in you? Has your perspective of things never changed?

Regeneration is in the subconscious

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He only love his own in the world

Yeah, just ignore the context of John 3:16 then if you insist. John 3:19 shows that those in spiritual darkness are included in the world that God so loves that He gave His only Son so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and nothing you say can refute that. You just believe what you want to believe. You cherry pick scripture and take it out of context. It's sad to see.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Regeneration is in the subconscious

Nonsense. The Holy Spirit becomes part of our consciousness when we are born again which is why we begin to see things in a spiritual way the way God sees things at that point.

 

[dms1972]

Regeneration is in the subconscious

Regeneration is what?

If by sub-conscious you refer to the psyche in the way something can be on the tip of the tongue, or when one tries to remember someone's name and goes over the alphabet to bring it to mind, then I don't think regeneration is sub-conscious, its deeper than that, but its effects reach to sub-conscious and conscious levels in conversion I would say. We have these terms like sub-conscious, unconscious etc. due to the loss of the biblical understanding of the heart. Leanne Payne (and others) have written about this, you might like to check out her books such as The Healing Presence.

 

[tall73]

Nobody knows when they are born again, or understands it.

I find it hard to believe that your doctrine can hold to the notion that a person cannot even desire to seek God if he is not born again, but then at the same time say you don't know when you are born again. By that logic, wouldn't it be when you seek God?

But that is the problem in this passage for your view. Because Nicodemus was seeking God, but was not yet born again.

We know Nicodemus wasn't born again because Jesus included him in those who needed to be. And Jesus certainly DOES know what is in a man.

John 2:25​

25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. (NKJV)​

 

[dms1972]

The Holy Spirit is at work I believe even before regeneration.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yeah, just ignore the context of John 3:16 then if you insist. John 3:19 shows that those in spiritual darkness are included in the world that God so loves that He gave His only Son so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and nothing you say can refute that. You just believe what you want to believe. You cherry pick scripture and take it out of context. It's sad to see.

He only loved his own

 

[Brightfame52]

Nonsense. The Holy Spirit becomes part of our consciousness when we are born again which is why we begin to see things in a spiritual way the way God sees things at that point.

New birth is in the subconscious

 

[Brightfame52]

Regeneration is what?

If by sub-conscious you refer to the psyche in the way something can be on the tip of the tongue, or when one tries to remember someone's name and goes over the alphabet to bring it to mind, then I don't think regeneration is sub-conscious, its deeper than that, but its effects reach to sub-conscious and conscious levels in conversion I would say. We have these terms like sub-conscious, unconscious etc. due to the loss of the biblical understanding of the heart. Leanne Payne (and others) have written about this, you might like to check out her books such as The Healing Presence.

The point is man has no control when and how he's regenerated it's a mysterious work of God

 

[Brightfame52]

I find it hard to believe that your doctrine can hold to the notion that a person cannot even desire to seek God if he is not born again, but then at the same time say you don't know when you are born again. By that logic, wouldn't it be when you seek God?

But that is the problem in this passage for your view. Because Nicodemus was seeking God, but was not yet born again.

We know Nicodemus wasn't born again because Jesus included him in those who needed to be. And Jesus certainly DOES know what is in a man.

John 2:25​

25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. (NKJV)​

Man by nature does not seek God Romans 3:11

 

[dms1972]

The point is man has no control when and how he's regenerated it's a mysterious work of God

Granted, but the term you use "sub-conscious" is open to misunderstanding. Better to say "at the roots of consciousness"

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Yeah, just ignore the context of John 3:16 then if you insist. John 3:19 shows that those in spiritual darkness are included in the world that God so loves that He gave His only Son so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and nothing you say can refute that. You just believe what you want to believe. You cherry pick scripture and take it out of context. It's sad to see.

I am a strong believer of the TULIP doctrine: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints.

The primary challenge associated with TULIP lies not in its doctrinal content, but rather in the terminology—words such as "Election," "chosen," and "limited" may inadvertently portray attributes of God that do not accurately reflect His nature. Individuals who are unfamiliar with TULIP might interpret terms such as "chosen," "Election," or "limited" to mean that proponents believe God does not love everyone, wishes to save only a select few, and is limited in His ability to offer salvation. This perspective, however, does not represent the beliefs of those who affirm Limited Atonement. God's grace is not confined to certain individuals; God desires all people to be saved, a principle consistently affirmed throughout scripture, which attests to God's universal love for creation.

Nevertheless, within this theological framework, it is understood that God possesses foreknowledge of who will accept His Son and thereby receive eternal life, even before the foundation of the world. Accordingly, God sent His Son to atone for the sins of those who would ultimately accept Him. The atonement, therefore, is not understood as a payment for the sins of all humanity indiscriminately, but specifically for those who would embrace Christ. Whether these individuals are referred to as "chosen," "special," "elected," or simply "people of the world," the essential point remains: God's omniscience enables Him to know in advance who will accept His Son, and the redemptive work of Christ is directed towards them.