The martyrdom of good people

[jacorian]

Alright is there anyone out there with some depth of knowledge b/c of this question: why does God let good people die? Meaning if you look back over the history of humankind, from the apostles to the saints, to religious preachers, to well-meaning leaders or icons, they're always gunned down. This makes it hard to poke the darkness with rays of light. It appears to me that Satan is winning. Just listened to this query on Utube given by an atheist & of course the comeback line is there is no God. We see the big loss not only that the voice is shut down & a family is left with burdens now but this was a source of hope against the evil in this world.

 

[RDKirk]

Alright is there anyone out there with some depth of knowledge b/c of this question: why does God let good people die? Meaning if you look back over the history of humankind, from the apostles to the saints, to religious preachers, to well-meaning leaders or icons, they're always gunned down. This makes it hard to poke the darkness with rays of light. It appears to me that Satan is winning. Just listened to this query on Utube given by an atheist & of course the comeback line is there is no God. We see the big loss not only that the voice is shut down & a family is left with burdens now but this was a source of hope against the evil in this world.

This is a fallen world.

If good people lived and only bad people died, it would not be a fallen world, it would be a naturally just world.

But because it is a fallen world, it is not a just world by nature.

 

[Larniavc]

This is a fallen world.

If good people lived and only bad people died, it would not be a fallen world, it would be a naturally just world.

But because it is a fallen world, it is not a just world by nature.

Isn’t God in control then?

 

[Sir Joseph]

Plus, if God really did extinguish all of the bad people in the world, using his moral standard, we'd all be gone.

I think we'd all like the worst of this world's people to be gone, but drawing the line would be tough to do for mere, biased humans.

 

[Meowzltov]

Alright is there anyone out there with some depth of knowledge b/c of this question: why does God let good people die?

All living things die, because this is how the universe stays in a constant state of renewal. Imagine a static universe where nothing ever changes. Its like a photograph that just sits there. Compare the photo to a movie. Which do you prefer for your universe?

Meaning if you look back over the history of humankind, from the apostles to the saints, to religious preachers, to well-meaning leaders or icons, they're always gunned down.

Have you ever noticed that there is a certain subset of people who hate goodness? They LIKE being mediocre and selfish. When they meet someone who is altruistic, they are driven to bring that person down. Why? Because the existence of a loving person reveals their lie that everyone is mediocre and they are just fine. Their excuse has always been, "Hey, everyone does it. Why should I be any different?" You can see how someone who "doesn't do it" would threaten that.

This makes it hard to poke the darkness with rays of light.

It only takes a small candle to shine enough light to walk the room.

It appears to me that Satan is winning. Just listened to this query on Utube given by an atheist & of course the comeback line is there is no God. We see the big loss not only that the voice is shut down & a family is left with burdens now but this was a source of hope against the evil in this world.

There is a book you may be interested in called, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. The light IS winning. The change is happening at glacial pace. It's like watching a clock and you don't see it move. But come back later, and it is changed. If the only thing you examine is the last century, you aren't going to see a change. But if you compare the world today to the way it was a thousand years ago, hey, yeah, there is less violence.

From Peter, Paul, and Mary's Chanukah classic, "Don't Let the Light Go Out"

… Light one candle for the strength that we need
To never become our own foe
And light one candle for those who are suff'ring
Pain we learned so long ago
… Light one candle for all we believe in
Let anger not tear us apart!
Light one candle to bind us together
With peace as the song in our heart
… Don't let the light go out!
It's lasted for so many years!
Don't let the light go out!
Let it shine through our love and our tears

 

[Meowzltov]

Plus, if God really did extinguish all of the bad people in the world, using his moral standard, we'd all be gone.

I totally reject this all or nothing thinking. While none of us is perfect, there ARE a few extremely good people, so good that you sit up and take notice, a few really evil people who do an enormous amount of evil, and a whole awful lot of mediocre people in the middle.

According to Proverbs, it's not perfection that makes us righteous, but our willingness to repent. Repentance restores us to righteousness:
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again

 

[partinobodycular]

Have you ever noticed that there is a certain subset of people who hate goodness?

I do believe that there's a certain subset of people for whom the cry for help gets misinterpreted as hatred. Just as God works in mysterious ways, pain expresses itself in mysterious ways as well. So reserve judgment against those who would seem to deserve it most, because as they say... there but for the grace of God.

 

[Meowzltov]

I do believe that there's a certain subset of people for whom the cry for help gets interpreted as hatred. Just as God works in mysterious ways, pain expresses itself in mysterious ways as well. So reserve judgment against those who would seem to deserve it most, because as they say... there but for the grace of God.

I agree with all you just said. The problem is, it has no relationship to what *I* said. People "crying for help" don't try to destroy what's good. If that's what someone is doing, a LOT more is going on there than "crying for help."

 

[jacorian]

All living things die, because this is how the universe stays in a constant state of renewal. Imagine a static universe where nothing ever changes. Its like a photograph that just sits there. Compare the photo to a movie. Which do you prefer for your universe?

Have you ever noticed that there is a certain subset of people who hate goodness? They LIKE being mediocre and selfish. When they meet someone who is altruistic, they are driven to bring that person down. Why? Because the existence of a loving person reveals their lie that everyone is mediocre and they are just fine. Their excuse has always been, "Hey, everyone does it. Why should I be any different?" You can see how someone who "doesn't do it" would threaten that.

It only takes a small candle to shine enough light to walk the room.

There is a book you may be interested in called, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. The light IS winning. The change is happening at glacial pace. It's like watching a clock and you don't see it move. But come back later, and it is changed. If the only thing you examine is the last century, you aren't going to see a change. But if you compare the world today to the way it was a thousand years ago, hey, yeah, there is less violence.

From Peter, Paul, and Mary's Chanukah classic, "Don't Let the Light Go Out"

… Light one candle for the strength that we need
To never become our own foe
And light one candle for those who are suff'ring
Pain we learned so long ago
… Light one candle for all we believe in
Let anger not tear us apart!
Light one candle to bind us together
With peace as the song in our heart
… Don't let the light go out!
It's lasted for so many years!
Don't let the light go out!
Let it shine through our love and our tears

One of my very favorite songs.

 

[linux.poet]

People "crying for help" don't try to destroy what's good.

Generally speaking, people who are “crying for help” are trying to destroy what is evil. However, what they think is evil may actually be good - they may be delusional.

Trauma can quickly distort good and evil into a self-centered “pain versus not pain” morality. Good is “whatever stops my abuse and relieves my trauma symptoms” and evil is “whatever is abuse and makes my trauma symptoms worse”. If you don’t have biblical morality to push back against that and force the realization that there are immoral and moral ways to deal with trauma, it can persuade you to do some really dumb things. You could drink some chamomile tea to deal with your intense anger towards your abuser, or you could take out a gun and shoot your abuser in the head, permanently ending the abuse forever. It has an appeal, doesn’t it?

I could be wrong about this, but I’ve been getting a vibe that liberal woke ideology views government institutions as abusive, Christianity as abusive, conservatives as abusive, etc. It’s persuasive if you grew up in an abusive home, broken home with divorces and absent parents, etc. I was reading Dan B. Allender’s book To Be Told and he was describing the government’s role in people’s lives as a substitute father figure, and if Daddy was abusive to begin with, thinking that Father Government is also abusive is the next logical step, especially if you’re using illegal drugs to manage your trauma symptoms instead of safer and more natural interventions. I’m not saying that all liberals believe that, because many of them don’t, including me. But I suspect some do. What they do that, they are traumatizing themselves.

So we get “Father government is abusing me like old dad did so I want relief and I want to kill my abuser.” That pattern really seems to explain the recent spate of shootings, from the Trump one to the United Healthcare one to the Charlie Kirk one. Ironically, it’s actually a problem that the liberals need to solve: they need to shut down this thinking and take better care of their people. The government is not an abuser, and neither are conservative politicians. The government gives out EBT so you can go play video games for another day, and allows for work so you can feel important. Stop killing people. We’re on your side.

 

[MehGuy]

Growing up in a Christian environment, being martyred for the faith was seen as a great high honor. That the coming tribulation, the number of martyrs will be astronomical, perhaps maybe even on the levels of a Holocaust. To the point where if you are not martyred you might feel left out, lol.

Being a martyr often raises the profile of the person, serves as an inspiration for others and invokes strong emotions.

I imagine being slain for the faith is seen by many as a status symbol that one carries along forever in heaven. Especially for those who believe in concepts like a "martyr crown". While some people only take it symbolically others believe you are literally rewarded a special crown for martyrdom when you get to heaven.

Being tortured and killed for one's faith, God gives one an opportunity to express extreme love for him. An experience that can never be taken away.

Does Satan win under this context? Not sure what an evil supernatural force is even supposed to accomplish when suffering already seems to be part of the plan.

 

[Robban]

Alright is there anyone out there with some depth of knowledge b/c of this question: why does God let good people die? Meaning if you look back over the history of humankind, from the apostles to the saints, to religious preachers, to well-meaning leaders or icons, they're always gunned down. This makes it hard to poke the darkness with rays of light. It appears to me that Satan is winning. Just listened to this query on Utube given by an atheist & of course the comeback line is there is no God. We see the big loss not only that the voice is shut down & a family is left with burdens now but this was a source of hope against the evil in this world.

Speech is silver, silence is gold.

Silence is rare today, more and more we have to have some sound maybe to comfort ourselves.

That we are not alone, silence complete silence enables the soul to hear what God is saying.

Dare take time to be alone with the almighty, shut out all interference, tune in to His voice.

People talk because that is what people do.

 

[com7fy8]

Alright is there anyone out there with some depth of knowledge b/c of this question: why does God let good people die?

You identify as Eastern Orthodox, right? What Eastern Orthodox things have your teachers and preachers told you, about this?

One thing I think of is > Isaiah 57:1 >

"The righteous perishes,
. And no one takes it to heart;
. Merciful men are taken away,
. While no one considers
. That the righteous is taken away from evil."

Also > Jesus died. But He was not cancelled, but His death has been used for so much of all the good God is doing.

No one, then, truly of God is failing. And death is not failing or being cancelled.

Meaning if you look back over the history of humankind, from the apostles to the saints, to religious preachers, to well-meaning leaders or icons, they're always gunned down.

The ones gunned down get the publicity. But many are not even noticed . . . while keeping on doing God's good.

This makes it hard to poke the darkness with rays of light. It appears to me that Satan is winning.

Satan can make it look this way.

However, any real martyr or great leader is our example. So, if someone has been so great, keep the person's good going, by following the person's example. For example, we are commanded to follow the example Jesus set while suffering and dying on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

But yes we have been fooled int thinking and reacting otherwise; so just deal with it and with God we can do better >

We see the big loss not only that the voice is shut down & a family is left with burdens now but this was a source of hope against the evil in this world.

The example remains.

And help the family.

And mass-produced change might not last. However, personal example can help to change someone's heart with lasting life of God's love. Jesus does say >

"without Me you can do nothing", in John 15:5.

So . . . in case certain American presidents have not been genuinely Christian > there are really loving people in Jesus who have accomplished more, in one hour, than all the unsaved presidents of American history have done . . . in all their lifetimes combined.

In one hour a truly Christian person does more. And because God is all-loving, whatsoever He has *a*n*y* of us doing will have His all-loving results. And what He does with us will last.

So, do not be fooled by how this evil world makes things look.

 

[Niels]

Have you ever noticed that there is a certain subset of people who hate goodness? They LIKE being mediocre and selfish. When they meet someone who is altruistic, they are driven to bring that person down. Why? Because the existence of a loving person reveals their lie that everyone is mediocre and they are just fine. Their excuse has always been, "Hey, everyone does it. Why should I be any different?" You can see how someone who "doesn't do it" would threaten that.

They cut others down to feel better about themselves. It's a bit like tall poppy syndrome. Whether we're talking about goodness, talent, excellence, or simply being happy, there are people who will respond with hate.

Not all who do so are selfish and enjoy being mediocre, however. Many are selfish and ambitious. They regard the admirable as an obstacle to their own pursuit of status. Which is why awful people with few redeeming qualities may prioritize obtaining power and influence. Rather than cultivating competence and benevolent virtue, they focus on cutting others down to size. When this happens, it contributes to societal decal, decreased innovation, and cultural collapse. Which is why I'm convinced that human progress depends more on collaboration than literal cut-throat competition, but I digress.

 

[Larniavc]

Compare the photo to a movie.

Do things die in Heaven?

 

[Meowzltov]

I could be wrong about this, but I’ve been getting a vibe from liberal woke ideology that they are viewing government institutions as abusive, Christianity as abusive, conservatives as abusive, etc.

Although I'm personally a centrist, I have no shortage of leftist friends at synagogue. They actually tend to be more trusting of governmental institutions than conservatives, but sure, they are well aware that these institutions can become abusive. They tend to not lump all Christians together, but are cognizant that Christianity comes in many different forms and while some of those forms may be destructive, they do not have a negative view of Christians in general. And while my synagogue leans left, there are certainly conservative Jews there as well who think Trump is the best thing since sliced bread. Yet we manage to get along.

So we get “Father government is abusing me like old dad did so I want relief and I want to kill my abuser.” That pattern really seems to explain the recent spate of shootings, from the Trump one to the United Healthcare one to the Charlie Kirk one. Ironically, it’s actually a problem that the liberals need to solve: they need to shut down this thinking and take better care of their people. The government is not an abuser, and neither are conservative politicians. The government gives out EBT so you can go play video games for another day, and allows for work so you can feel important. Stop killing people. We’re on your side.

I think you are radically oversimplifying the surge in political violence. Such things are always the confluence of multiple factors. To ignore the part that social media plays in it is unimaginable to me. Heck, I would bet money that even the rise of the average temperature plays a part, as does the rise in human density, as well as the increase in disparity of wealth and death of the middle class... I mean, I can rattle off a whole long list of factors, and it baffles me that you would mention only one.

One final word. I find it despicable that you depict those so impoverished that they receive EBT assistance as people who "go play video games." I now know exactly the sort of person you are.

 

[Meowzltov]

Do things die in Heaven?

Since I've never been to heaven, I wouldn't presume to know.

 

[RDKirk]

Growing up in a Christian environment, being martyred for the faith was seen as a great high honor. That the coming tribulation, the number of martyrs will be astronomical, perhaps maybe even on the levels of a Holocaust. To the point where if you are not martyred you might feel left out, lol.

Being a martyr often raises the profile of the person, serves as an inspiration for others and invokes strong emotions.

I imagine being slain for the faith is seen by many as a status symbol that one carries along forever in heaven. Especially for those who believe in concepts like a "martyr crown". While some people only take it symbolically others believe you are literally rewarded a special crown for martyrdom when you get to heaven.

Being tortured and killed for one's faith, God gives one an opportunity to express extreme love for him. An experience that can never be taken away.

Does Satan win under this context? Not sure what an evil supernatural force is even supposed to accomplish when suffering already seems to be part of the plan.

Being martyred for the faith is a quite rare thing.

Offhand, I can only think of one fairly recent American who was martyred purely for his faith without politics and other appendages: Nathan Saint and his colleagues.

Other American Christians have been killed while happening to be Christian, but Nate Saint and his colleagues were explicitly killed while actually in the performance of gospel outreach and because of their gospel outreach and their refusal to abandon their gospel outreach.

 

[linux.poet]

One final word. I find it despicable that you depict those so impoverished that they receive EBT assistance as people who "go play video games." I now know exactly the sort of person you are.

Given that I'm on EBT and don't play video games, I'm going to challenge that characterization a little bit. But I'm a woman.

It's my understanding that video games play an important role in sustaining the mental health of some jobless and impoverished men. If you don't have to pay for your food because "Father Government" pays for it, you can put your limited cash that you scraped together from day labor into buying your next video game title. You can mow down hundreds of enemies in Call of Duty, or you can kill people in real life. We all know what the better option is.

Men want to work and provide for their families. That's how God made them. If they can't do it because of economic conditions, it's a source of rage for them. Where do you want them to put that rage? It has to go somewhere. The mischaracterization is that they want to play video games and not work, and there's not a man I know like that. Men want to work. People want to work. Everyone works at something, it's just a matter of getting society to approve of your passion and thus pay you fat money.

Likewise, I enjoy fighting. That's part of my wiring. If you're like me, you can go around threatening everyone and run yourself in and out of jail, or you can sign up for a marital arts class and go to the local chess tournament to play every once and awhile. We all know which is the better option. So I'm not looking down on the men who play video games. In fact, I'm probably too close to them and I like them way too much. I had to get a relationship to contain that emotion. It's frankly disturbing to realize that the person next to you will not only stand up for what they believe is right and fight you on that, but that they will actually like it. I don't know how to deal with that disturbance except to make what I believe very clear and adopt a soothing, gentle female voice to back down and comfort people when people blame me for being myself. I've learned to be okay with losing fights and also to assess whether a fight is worth starting, whether the other person will enjoy it as much as I do, and if it is worth taking the damage to the relationship for temporary enjoyment. Usually I end up forgoing such pleasure. Well, aside from select forum debates, chess matches, and thwacking martial arts dummies with sticks.

But I don't think that most people who commit political violence are like me, otherwise they would be using wiffle bats or staffs or fists instead of guns. A gun promises easy relief that a staff does not. A person who enjoys fighting wants to live to fight another day, and may even lose the fight for the privilege of survival. A person who wants relief will reach for the gun to stop the problem that they can't stand for another day.

I think you are radically oversimplifying the surge in political violence. Such things are always the confluence of multiple factors.

My post was merely trying to address your dismissal of "crying for help" as a factor in these shootings. Admittedly that leads to an oversimplified and narrow view, and I will concede that there are other factors involved. I'm just trying to put the factor back on the table, as that factor is something I know about, both in my own life and the lives of others around me.

 

[Larniavc]

Since I've never been to heaven, I wouldn't presume to know.

What does John 3:16 tell you? Do you believe that?