Gibbons Decline & Fall & Christianity

[Valletta]

Yes, this is true. This is not the fault of those being ruled over. Yet those being ruled over can either choose to support such for survival, or reject it as non Christian and therefore being practiced or enforced by professed Christian entities, as antichrist. Which many did and do. The history of Roman Catholicism is the history of contending Christian professing entities, seeking the support of the state, or at that time Imperial support. Which once obtained, turned into Imperially enforced "Christianity".

What are the names of the individuals who you accuse of first seeking out the support of the state. Do you claim to have statements from them? If not statements what historical documents from the time do you have that make such allegations? Please cite the documents.

 

[Valletta]

It was more an identification of the entity described in Revelation 17 by interpreters, than historical accounts by historians. Peoples being persecuted by the Catholic Church in league with Catholic political leaders, noticed the colors and golden cup employed by the church, its direct connection to the Roman Empire, and simply put 2 and 2 together. They were Christians (saints), they were being persecuted and killed by Roman Catholic religious and political leaders in league with each other, and the Catholic church employed the colors and cup described as an identifying mark in Revelation 17. It is hard to dialogue, with people who outlaw what you say and believe with penalties up to torture and death. Many of course today, look back at said history, and see these same identifying marks played out in actual history.

There is no question purple is mentioned in the Bible, I have given an example as have you. No one disputes that. But why pick one color of many colors used by the Catholic Church? Why didn't these people note when their own religion used purple and then "put two and two together?" Has anyone ever noted when you have used purple, perhaps your clothing or something in your residence, and then associated you with Revelation 17? My point is that the hatred was there first, choosing one particular passage from the Bible instead of another, and choosing one of the many colors used by the Catholic Church instead of another, and putting those together is far-fetched. Using such "logic" virtually anyone could be accused of anything.

 

[The Liturgist]

It was more an identification of the entity described in Revelation 17 by interpreters, than historical accounts by historians. Peoples being persecuted by the Catholic Church in league with Catholic political leaders, noticed the colors and golden cup employed by the church, its direct connection to the Roman Empire, and simply put 2 and 2 together. They were Christians (saints), they were being persecuted and killed by Roman Catholic religious and political leaders in league with each other, and the Catholic church employed the colors and cup described as an identifying mark in Revelation 17. It is hard to dialogue, with people who outlaw what you say and believe with penalties up to torture and death. Many of course today, look back at said history, and see these same identifying marks played out in actual history.

Obviously whoever complained about the use of purple vestments, which the Roman Catholic Church does not actually use (rather they use violet and in the Ambrosian Rite, morello), was writing relatively recently, within the past few centuries. In England the Roman Catholic Church historically never used violet vestments before the Council of Trent, instead using Sarum Blue in the South during the penitential seasons and elsewhere, for example in those areas using the liturgy of York, used only gold, red, white and black vestments.

If we go back a bit further, to the medieval period, and to the Classical period when the pre-schism Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches became the official religion in Edessa, Armenia, Ethiopia, Georgia, and after a long flirtation with Arianism, of the Roman Empire around 390 AD, only two types of vestment were in use, dark vestments and light vestments, with the rules on whether to use one or the other varying between church - for example, the Copts use dark vestments during services such as Evening Prayer and their Readers have reversible stoles which are normally red but if reversed are dark blue or black, which are reversed during Holy Week to commemorate the Crucifixion on Good Friday, before being reversed again on Holy Saturday to commemorate His Resurrection (a similiar change of vesture colors happens in the Byzantine Rite on Great and Holy Saturday).

Later, in the early Renaissance, or perhaps a few years before hand, violet vestments were introduced in the Roman Rite on most penitential occasions, but other alternatives were also used, for example, in Lyons, a tan vestment color was used, which is still used in the traditional Lyonaise liturgy on Ash Wednesday, and in the UK the aforementioned colors were used, and also something called “Lenten Array” which was used in the aforementioned Sarum Rite and consisted of natural linen rather than linen bleached white: Lenten Array in the Sarum Use

Several liturgical rites continue to use only light and dark vestments, including the Coptic Orthodox, the Mozarabic Rite, the Ethiopian Rite, and officially at least, the Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox and several Eastern Orthodox churches (the Eastern Orthodox typikon, the book which regulates the services, specifies only whether light or dark vestments are to be used, so while in Russia, Ukraine, and certain jurisdictions in the US and certain Eastern Catholic churches that also use the Byzantine Rite, a more complex color scheme is in use, it is entirely optional, with other churches even in the US such as most of the Greek Orthodox really not caring; likewise the Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic and the Assyrian Church of the East (East Syriac) just pick colors and use them whenever light vestments are as well, while wearing more minimal vestments, which are usually black, red and gold in color at other times.

Regarding the use of a golden chalice, this is an absurd accusation against the Roman Church, and ignores the historic existence of silver and brass chalices. At any rate, since the Orthodox churches and all other traditional liturgical churches also use these, and the Syriac Orthodox informally use, and the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox formally use, purple vestments, we can dismiss this whole conspiracy theory as moot, since it relies on a connection with the Church of Rome and is just obvious anti-Catholic agitation, probably of 18th century origin at the earliest, probably written by someone who was a non-Trinitarian opposed to the Council of Nicaea given the dating (since historically most Trinitarian Christians were aware of the importance of Nicaea in opposing Arianism and it was only in the 19th century in the US that poorly educated people began to make the Council of Nicaea the center of various conspiracy theories, while, due to peer pressure from other Christians, not rejecting the doctrine of the Incarnation which was defended at Nicaea against the heresy of Arius.

 

[Amo2]

What are the names of the individuals who you accuse of first seeking out the support of the state. Do you claim to have statements from them? If not statements what historical documents from the time do you have that make such allegations? Please cite the documents.

First, authentic Christianity would reject all inroads of political powers of this earth, taking control of the church and or enforcing it upon all citizens. As neither our Lord Jesus Christ or any of His apostles provided any such examples, but to the contrary, clearly stated and taught that the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world are two distinctly and separate institutions. Which are meant to remain so. The acceptance of government interference and or control of Christ's church is in fact of itself apostasy. So, no real need to supply the evidence you have requested.

Second, when Christianity itself becomes so immoral as to require government intervention due to mob violence between differing "Christian" sects in order to keep the peace, then the professed "Christians" involved in such are already obviously apostate.

These two factors played an important part of the development of apostate amalgamated church and state. Which the quotes I have provided from Gibbons, establish as authentic history, which things our Lord and His apostles also foretold. This is not to say that there weren't people guilty of seeking such out for themselves though. I'll work on finding some examples for you as time allows, it will be an interesting study. Are you just interested in those who first sought out the aid and support of the state, or would you like more abundant evidence throughout history including papal Encyclicals, Doctrinal Notes, Accords, and or official teachings as well?

Do you really think those our Lord and the apostle Paul predicted would come in the following verses, would not and or did not take advantage of government support when it came there way, and or their own control of government as well if possible?

Jhn 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

I will end with one example of Roman Catholic call for government or state support which exists in their teachings to this very day. Which has been implemented within nations and states hundreds of times over throughout history, and to date. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

Hundreds if not thousands of Sunday laws have been established and enforced upon all citizens of various nations or states throughout history and to date. Which type of Sunday legislation was first mandated and enforced by the first professed Roman Catholic emperor of the Roman Empire.

"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Which the Roman Catholic church backed up with the following statement to all citizens of the Roman Empire who had recently all been made Roman Catholics themselves by royal decree.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

Which Pope Gregory I later expanded upon with the following command to all citizens as well.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

The following link addresses many of the Sunday laws throughout the past.

A critical history of Sunday legislation from 321 to 1888 A. D. : Lewis, Abram Herbert, 1836-1908 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The metadata below describe the original scanning. Follow the All Files: HTTP link in the View the book box to the left to find XML files that contain more...

archive.org

 

[Amo2]

There is no question purple is mentioned in the Bible, I have given an example as have you. No one disputes that. But why pick one color of many colors used by the Catholic Church? Why didn't these people note when their own religion used purple and then "put two and two together?" Has anyone ever noted when you have used purple, perhaps your clothing or something in your residence, and then associated you with Revelation 17? My point is that the hatred was there first, choosing one particular passage from the Bible instead of another, and choosing one of the many colors used by the Catholic Church instead of another, and putting those together is far-fetched. Using such "logic" virtually anyone could be accused of anything.

It was not far fetched for people who were being persecuted and killed by Roman Catholic powers, to search the scriptures for why they might be doing this, and therefore ending up ascribing this identifying mark in the book of Revelation with several others she was fulfilling as well. It made perfect sense to them. Not that this one attribute alone proved their understanding, but that several different identifying marks added up to a positive I.D. as they saw and experienced it.

 

[Valletta]

It was not far fetched for people who were being persecuted and killed by Roman Catholic powers, to search the scriptures for why they might be doing this, and therefore ending up ascribing this identifying mark in the book of Revelation with several others she was fulfilling as well. It made perfect sense to them. Not that this one attribute alone proved their understanding, but that several different identifying marks added up to a positive I.D. as they saw and experienced it.

That's quite a take, to assume that people who were "being persecuted and killed" would "search the scriptures for why they might be doing this."
If that were the case for me I would not be busy trying to interpret Revelation, I would be praying.

 

[Valletta]

First, authentic Christianity would reject all inroads of political powers of this earth, taking control of the church and or enforcing it upon all citizens. As neither our Lord Jesus Christ or any of His apostles provided any such examples, but to the contrary, clearly stated and taught that the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world are two distinctly and separate institutions. Which are meant to remain so. The acceptance of government interference and or control of Christ's church is in fact of itself apostasy. So, no real need to supply the evidence you have requested.

Second, when Christianity itself becomes so immoral as to require government intervention due to mob violence between differing "Christian" sects in order to keep the peace, then the professed "Christians" involved in such are already obviously apostate.

These two factors played an important part of the development of apostate amalgamated church and state. Which the quotes I have provided from Gibbons, establish as authentic history . . .

No, that is NOT "authentic history." I have asked you for specific citations from historical documents of the time. Didn't the supposed "historians" you revere provide any? Without such historical documents from the time it is just supposition and fabrication.

 

[Amo2]

That's quite a take, to assume that people who were "being persecuted and killed" would "search the scriptures for why they might be doing this."
If that were the case for me I would not be busy trying to interpret Revelation, I would be praying.

That is what they did, and how they came to the conclusions they did.

 

[Amo2]

No, that is NOT "authentic history." I have asked you for specific citations from historical documents of the time. Didn't the supposed "historians" you revere provide any? Without such historical documents from the time it is just supposition and fabrication.

That is absolutely authentic history. Deny whatever you wish. Nevertheless, the historical account and teachings of the New Testament reveal this exact predicted change within Christianity, from an institution empowered by the Holy Spirit of God unto conviction and conversion unto an institution empowered by the state and the man of sin. Which the histories I have and will continue to share on this thread document and confirm as well. Which of course those who deny these truths, downplay as unreliable and insignificant history. You may pretend that that which happened and was recorded by historians didn't happen if you wish, nevertheless I have already furnished you with the facts regarding Sunday sacredness established by Imperial law and continued state enforcement throughout the world and history to this very day. Not to mention the many examples of Imperially enforced "Christianity" already posted from Gibbons which all confirm this fact. This change took place, period, fact of matter. Professed Christinas instigated and caused government intrusion by their own infighting and violence as they ever grew in numbers, the favored parties then accepting such intrusion as being befitted by such, then they promoted such, and then they became the overlords of state enforced religion themselves. Unto untold persecutions then and in the future. Deny what you wish, I will continue due to supply the historical record of these exact processes.

 

[Amo2]

The emperor himself was chaste, temperate, liberal, and merciful; but these qualities—which can only deserve the name of virtues when they are supported by courage and regulated by discretion—were seldom beneficial, and they sometimes proved mischievous, to mankind. His mind, enervated by a royal education, was oppressed and degraded by abject superstition: he fasted, he sung psalms, he blindly accepted the miracles and doctrines with which his faith was continually nourished. Theodosius devoutly worshipped the dead and living saints of the Catholic church; and he once refused to eat, till an insolent monk, who had cast an excommunication on his sovereign, condescended to heal the spiritual wound which he had inflicted. (The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 3, Chap. 32, pg. 361 of the Everyman's Library edition)

Theodosius, concealed behind a curtain in the apartment of his sister, was permitted to behold the Athenian virgin: the modest youth immediately declared his pure and honorable love; and the royal nuptials were celebrated amidst the acclamations of the capital and the provinces. Athenais, who was easily persuaded to renounce the errors of Paganism, received at her baptism the Christian name of Eudocia; but the cautious Pulcheria withheld the title of Augusta, till the wife of Theodosius had approved her fruitfulness by the birth of a daughter, who espoused, fifteen years afterwards, the emperor of the West. The brothers of Eudocia obeyed, with some anxiety, her Imperial summons; but as she could easily forgive their unfortunate unkindness, she indulged the tenderness, or perhaps the vanity, of a sister, by promoting them to the rank of consuls and præfects. In the luxury of the palace, she still cultivated those ingenuous arts which had contributed to her greatness; and wisely dedicated her talents to the honor of religion, and of her husband. Eudocia composed a poetical paraphrase of the first eight books of the Old Testament, and of the prophecies of Daniel and Zechariah; a cento of the verses of Homer, applied to the life and miracles of Christ, the legend of St. Cyprian, and a panegyric on the Persian victories of Theodosius; and her writings, which were applauded by a servile and superstitious age, have not been disdained by the candor of impartial criticism. The fondness of the emperor was not abated by time and possession; and Eudocia, after the marriage of her daughter, was permitted to discharge her grateful vows by a solemn pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Her ostentatious progress through the East may seem inconsistent with the spirit of Christian humility; she pronounced, from a throne of gold and gems, an eloquent oration to the senate of Antioch, declared her royal intention of enlarging the walls of the city, bestowed a donative of two hundred pounds of gold to restore the public baths, and accepted the statues, which were decreed by the gratitude of Antioch. In the Holy Land, her alms and pious foundations exceeded the munificence of the great Helena, and though the public treasure might be impoverished by this excessive liberality, she enjoyed the conscious satisfaction of returning to Constantinople with the chains of St. Peter, the right arm of St. Stephen, and an undoubted picture of the Virgin, painted by St. Luke. (The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 3, Chap. 32, pgs. 362&63 of the Everyman's Library edition)

The half hearted conversions of former pagan royalty, contributing to an increasingly superstitious and supposed “Christian” age. With those easily converting from paganism with improper motives, carrying their pagan tendencies right into “Christianity”. Being converted as a matter of political necessity, rather than heartfelt understanding, desire, and conversion. In order of course to escape persecution and the loss of their power and influence from Imperially established "Christianity".

 

[Amo2]

“The Catholic Church demanded assistance in her ambitious aim to make her power and authority absolute over all; and for Constantine’s purposes it was essential that the church should be a unit. These two considerations combined to produce results both immediate and remote, that proved a curse to the time then present and to ages to follow. The immediate result was that Constantine had no sooner compassed the destruction of Licinius in A.D. 323, than he issued an edict against the Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, Cataphrygians, and “all who devised and supported heresies by means of private assemblies,” denouncing them and their heresies, and commanding them all to enter the Catholic Church. The edict runs as follows: —

“Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus, to the heretics: Understand now, by this present statute, ye Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, ye who are called Cataphrygians, and all ye who devise and support heresies by means of your private assemblies, with what a tissue of falsehood and vanity, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inseparably interwoven; so that through you the healthy soul is stricken with disease, and the living becomes the prey of everlasting death. Ye haters and enemies of truth and life, in league with destruction: All your counsels are opposed to the truth, but familiar with deeds of baseness; fit subjects for the fabulous follies of the stage: and by these ye frame falsehoods, oppress the innocent, and withhold the light from them that believe. Ever trespassing under the mask of godliness, ye fill all things with defilement: ye pierce the pure and guileless conscience with deadly wounds, while ye withdraw, one may almost say, the very light of day from the eyes of men. But why should I particularize, when to speak of your criminality as it deserves, demands more time and leisure than I can give? For so long and unmeasured is the catalogue of your offenses, so hateful and altogether atrocious are they, that a single day would not suffice to recount them all. And indeed it is well to turn one’s ears and eyes from such a subject, lest by a description of each particular evil, the pure sincerity and freshness of one’s own faith be impaired. Why then do I still bear with such abounding evil; especially since this protracted clemency is the cause that some who were sound are become tainted with this pestilent disease? Why not at once strike, as it were, at the root of so great a mischief by a public manifestation of displeasure? “Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute that none of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies: and our care in this respect extends so far as to forbid the holding of your superstitious and senseless meetings, not in public merely, but in any private house or place whatsoever. Let those of you, therefore, who are desirous of embracing the true and pure religion, take the far better course of entering the Catholic Church, and uniting with it in holy fellowship, whereby you will be enabled to arrive at the knowledge of the truth. In any case, the delusions of your perverted understandings must entirely cease to mingle with and mar the felicity of our present times; I mean the impious and wretched doublemindedness of heretics and schismatics. For it is an object worthy of that prosperity which we enjoy through the favor of God, to endeavor to bring back those who in time past were living in the hope of future blessing, from all irregularity and error, to the right path, from darkness to light, from vanity to truth, from death to salvation. And in order that this remedy may be applied with effectual power, we have commanded (as before said), that you be positively deprived of every gathering point for your superstitious meetings; I mean all the houses of prayer (if such be worthy of the name) which belong to heretics, and that these be made over without delay to the Catholic Church; that any other places be confiscated to the public service, and no facility whatever be left for any future gathering; in order that from this day forward none of your unlawful assemblies may presume to appear in any public or private place. Let this edict be made public.” ( Eusebius’s- “Life of Constantine,” book 3, chaps. 64, 65. )

Some of the penal regulations of this edict “were copied from the edicts of Diocletian; and this method of conversion was applauded by the same bishops who had felt the hand of oppression, and had pleaded for the rights of humanity.”
( Gibbon- “Decline and Fall,” chap. 21, par. 1. )

The above quotes were within the book The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones. Which may be viewed and read at the following link.

The Two Republics, or Rome and the United States of America

m.egwwritings.org

 

[Valletta]

That is absolutely authentic history.

No, history is not about what someone thinks it should have been like or must have been like without historical documentation from the time.

 

[Valletta]

The above quotes were within the book The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones. Which may be viewed and read at the following link.

The Two Republics, or Rome and the United States of America

m.egwwritings.org

Again I've asked you to cite documents from the time so that you may try and substantiate specific points, not a book from 1891 copyrighted by Ellen White.

 

[Amo2]

No, history is not about what someone thinks it should have been like or must have been like without historical documentation from the time.

I've already given you two examples of recorded history with documentations you simple choose to ignore. Neither recorded history, or myself, or anyone else is prohibited by the parameters you are trying to impose over recorded history or individuals discussing or referring to them. Of course I do not have the original documents, and must depend upon copies of them within recorded histories. Just like all the rest of us, including you. Again, deny what you will. As I will continue to supply historical accounts, regardless of your denials or attempts control the narrative.

 

[Amo2]

Again I've asked you to cite documents from the time so that you may try and substantiate specific points, not a book from 1891 copyrighted by Ellen White.

Ellen White is not the author of the book, A.T. Jones is. This book with many others can be viewed at the EGW estate link provided. For the exact purpose of confirmation of EGW's views by many others, and their historical references. Documents are quoted in the references I continue to supply. Why don't you try reading them, and or proving them false or to have never existed, if this is the truth.

 

[Valletta]

I've already given you two examples of recorded history with documentations you simple choose to ignore. Neither recorded history, or myself, or anyone else is prohibited by the parameters you are trying to impose over recorded history or individuals discussing or referring to them. Of course I do not have the original documents, and must depend upon copies of them within recorded histories. Just like all the rest of us, including you. Again, deny what you will. As I will continue to supply historical accounts, regardless of your denials or attempts control the narrative.

Copies are fine. My point it that so much of what the author says is supposition that he weaves around the few known historical facts. There you go, you describe my questions and discussion as an attempt to "control the narrative."

 

[Amo2]

Copies are fine. My point it that so much of what the author says is supposition that he weaves around the few known historical facts. There you go, you describe my questions and discussion as an attempt to "control the narrative."

Per your accusation and request quoted below, even though there have already been many historical documents quoted in the quoted works of Gibbon himself on this thread, I have repeated some of those quotes and gave you more.

No, that is NOT "authentic history." I have asked you for specific citations from historical documents of the time. Didn't the supposed "historians" you revere provide any? Without such historical documents from the time it is just supposition and fabrication.

It is in the fact that you have never acknowledged or addressed these quotes, acting as though they were never given, that I suggested you are trying to control the narrative. What else can ignoring that such kind of quotes which have already been supplied, in basically declaring none have been given, amount to? Nevertheless, you are of course free to attempt to control the narrative if you wish, as I am free to point out this attempt as it seems to me.

Now you have said that quotes from historical documents is acceptable, as they are all one can produce of course. Does this mean you now acknowledge that several have already been given? If not, please do expound upon why, or do explain your position in doing so. Apart of course from trying to control the narrative, as you say you are not. This wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong about a persons motives, which none of us can really know about another. My apologies if such has nothing to do with your request and or refusal to acknowledge quotes from historical documents already given.

 

[Amo2]

The persecution of the Donatists was an event not less favorable to the designs of Genseric. Seventeen years before he landed in Africa, a public conference was held at Carthage, by the order of the magistrate. The Catholics were satisfied, that, after the invincible reasons which they had alleged, the obstinacy of the schismatics must be inexcusable and voluntary; and the emperor Honorius was persuaded to inflict the most rigorous penalties on a faction which had so long abused his patience and clemency. Three hundred bishops, with many thousands of the inferior clergy, were torn from their churches, stripped of their ecclesiastical possessions, banished to the islands, and proscribed by the laws, if they presumed to conceal themselves in the provinces of Africa. Their numerous congregations, both in cities and in the country, were deprived of the rights of citizens, and of the exercise of religious worship. A regular scale of fines, from ten to two hundred pounds of silver, was curiously ascertained, according to the distinction of rank and fortune, to punish the crime of assisting at a schismatic conventicle; and if the fine had been levied five times, without subduing the obstinacy of the offender, his future punishment was referred to the discretion of the Imperial court. By these severities, which obtained the warmest approbation of St. Augustin, great numbers of Donatists were reconciled to the Catholic Church; but the fanatics, who still persevered in their opposition, were provoked to madness and despair; the distracted country was filled with tumult and bloodshed; the armed troops of Circumcellions alternately pointed their rage against themselves, or against their adversaries; and the calendar of martyrs received on both sides a considerable augmentation. Under these circumstances, Genseric, a Christian, but an enemy of the orthodox communion, showed himself to the Donatists as a powerful deliverer, from whom they might reasonably expect the repeal of the odious and oppressive edicts of the Roman emperors.The conquest of Africa was facilitated by the active zeal, or the secret favor, of a domestic faction; the wanton outrages against the churches and the clergy of which the Vandals are accused, may be fairly imputed to the fanaticism of their allies; and the intolerant spirit which disgraced the triumph of Christianity, contributed to the loss of the most important province of the West. (The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 3, Chap. 33, pgs. 379 & 80 of the Everyman's Library edition)

Intolerance and inhumanity of professed “Christians” towards each other, exercised all the more deviantly and successfully when church and state are amalgamated. Which amalgamation is exactly what Roman Catholic hierarchy still strive toward to date. As easily ascertained in an examination of recent papal Encyclicals and Doctrinal notes.

 

[Amo2]

Part I​

The indissoluble connection of civil and ecclesiastical affairs has compelled, and encouraged, me to relate the progress, the persecutions, the establishment, the divisions, the final triumph, and the gradual corruption, of Christianity. I have purposely delayed the consideration of two religious events, interesting in the study of human nature, and important in the decline and fall of the Roman empire. I. The institution of the monastic life; and, II. The conversion of the northern Barbarians.

I. Prosperity and peace introduced the distinction of the vulgar and the Ascetic Christians. The loose and imperfect practice of religion satisfied the conscience of the multitude. The prince or magistrate, the soldier or merchant, reconciled their fervent zeal, and implicit faith, with the exercise of their profession, the pursuit of their interest, and the indulgence of their passions:but the Ascetics, who obeyed and abused the rigid precepts of the gospel, were inspired by the savage enthusiasm which represents man as a criminal, and God as a tyrant. They seriously renounced the business, and the pleasures, of the age; abjured the use of wine, of flesh, and of marriage; chastised their body, mortified their affections, and embraced a life of misery, as the price of eternal happiness. In the reign of Constantine, the Ascetics fled from a profane and degenerate world, to perpetual solitude, or religious society. Like the first Christians of Jerusalem, they resigned the use, or the property of their temporal possessions; established regular communities of the same sex, and a similar disposition; and assumed the names of Hermits, Monks, and Anachorets, expressive of their lonely retreat in a natural or artificial desert. They soon acquired the respect of the world, which they despised; and the loudest applause was bestowed on this Divine Philosophy, which surpassed, without the aid of science or reason, the laborious virtues of the Græcian schools. The monks might indeed contend with the Stoics, in the contempt of fortune, of pain, and of death: the Pythagorean silence and submission were revived in their servile discipline; and they disdained, as firmly as the Cynics themselves, all the forms and decencies of civil society. But the votaries of this Divine Philosophy aspired to imitate a purer and more perfect model. They trod in the footsteps of the prophets, who had retired to the desert; and they restored the devout and contemplative life, which had been instituted by the Essenians, in Palestine and Egypt. The philosophic eye of Pliny had surveyed with astonishment a solitary people, who dwelt among the palm-trees near the Dead Sea; who subsisted without money, who were propagated without women; and who derived from the disgust and repentance of mankind a perpetual supply of voluntary associates.

Egypt, the fruitful parent of superstition, afforded the first example of the monastic life. Antony, an illiterate youth of the lower parts of Thebaïs, distributed his patrimony, deserted his family and native home, and executed his monastic penance with original and intrepid fanaticism. After a long and painful novitiate, among the tombs, and in a ruined tower, he boldly advanced into the desert three days’ journey to the eastward of the Nile; discovered a lonely spot, which possessed the advantages of shade and water, and fixed his last residence on Mount Colzim, near the Red Sea; where an ancient monastery still preserves the name and memory of the saint. The curious devotion of the Christians pursued him to the desert; and when he was obliged to appear at Alexandria, in the face of mankind, he supported his fame with discretion and dignity. He enjoyed the friendship of Athanasius, whose doctrine he approved; and the Egyptian peasant respectfully declined a respectful invitation from the emperor Constantine. The venerable patriarch (for Antony attained the age of one hundred and five years) beheld the numerous progeny which had been formed by his example and his lessons. The prolific colonies of monks multiplied with rapid increase on the sands of Libya, upon the rocks of Thebaïs, and in the cities of the Nile. To the south of Alexandria, the mountain, and adjacent desert, of Nitria, were peopled by five thousand anachorets; and the traveller may still investigate the ruins of fifty monasteries, which were planted in that barren soil by the disciples of Antony. In the Upper Thebaïs, the vacant island of Tabenne, was occupied by Pachomius and fourteen hundred of his brethren. That holy abbot successively founded nine monasteries of men, and one of women; and the festival of Easter sometimes collected fifty thousand religious persons, who followed his angelic rule of discipline. The stately and populous city of Oxyrinchus, the seat of Christian orthodoxy, had devoted the temples, the public edifices, and even the ramparts, to pious and charitable uses; and the bishop, who might preach in twelve churches, computed ten thousand females and twenty thousand males, of the monastic profession. The Egyptians, who gloried in this marvellous revolution, were disposed to hope, and to believe, that the number of the monks was equal to the remainder of the people; and posterity might repeat the saying, which had formerly been applied to the sacred animals of the same country, That in Egypt it was less difficult to find a god than a man.

Athanasius introduced into Rome the knowledge and practice of the monastic life; and a school of this new philosophy was opened by the disciples of Antony, who accompanied their primate to the holy threshold of the Vatican. The strange and savage appearance of these Egyptians excited, at first, horror and contempt, and, at length, applause and zealous imitation. The senators, and more especially the matrons, transformed their palaces and villas into religious houses; and the narrow institution of six vestals was eclipsed by the frequent monasteries, which were seated on the ruins of ancient temples, and in the midst of the Roman forum. Inflamed by the example of Antony, a Syrian youth, whose name was Hilarion, fixed his dreary abode on a sandy beach, between the sea and a morass, about seven miles from Gaza. The austere penance, in which he persisted forty-eight years, diffused a similar enthusiasm; and the holy man was followed by a train of two or three thousand anachorets, whenever he visited the innumerable monasteries of Palestine. The fame of Basil is immortal in the monastic history of the East. With a mind that had tasted the learning and eloquence of Athens; with an ambition scarcely to be satisfied with the archbishopric of Cæsarea, Basil retired to a savage solitude in Pontus; and deigned, for a while, to give laws to the spiritual colonies which he profusely scattered along the coast of the Black Sea. In the West, Martin of Tours, a soldier, a hermit, a bishop, and a saint, established the monasteries of Gaul; two thousand of his disciples followed him to the grave; and his eloquent historian challenges the deserts of Thebaïs to produce, in a more favorable climate, a champion of equal virtue. The progress of the monks was not less rapid, or universal, than that of Christianity itself. Every province, and, at last, every city, of the empire, was filled with their increasing multitudes; and the bleak and barren isles, from Lerins to Lipari, that arose out of the Tuscan Sea, were chosen by the anachorets for the place of their voluntary exile. An easy and perpetual intercourse by sea and land connected the provinces of the Roman world; and the life of Hilarion displays the facility with which an indigent hermit of Palestine might traverse Egypt, embark for Sicily, escape to Epirus, and finally settle in the Island of Cyprus. The Latin Christians embraced the religious institutions of Rome. The pilgrims, who visited Jerusalem, eagerly copied, in the most distant climates of the earth, the faithful model of the monastic life. The disciples of Antony spread themselves beyond the tropic, over the Christian empire of Æthiopia. The monastery of Banchor, in Flintshire, which contained above two thousand brethren, dispersed a numerous colony among the Barbarians of Ireland; and Iona, one of the Hebrides, which was planted by the Irish monks, diffused over the northern regions a doubtful ray of science and superstition.(The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 4, Chap. 37, pgs. 3 - 9 of the Everyman's Library edition)

The spread of fanaticism amidst an increasingly unbiblical form of Christianity. Instead of being called by God to separate from society, or doing so in order to survive persecution as true prophets of God had, misguided and or the scripturally unlearned voluntarily completely separated themselves from the rest of humanity. Creating an exact opposite effect of the gospel commission embraced and taught by our Lord and the apostles themselves regarding evangelism and or Christian witness, by way of holy living with and among the various societies of humanity.

Even when authentic Christianity hid in order to escape persecution, secret evangelistic efforts into dangerous areas was eagerly pursued. Authentic Christianity cannot abandon the gospel commission.