If God can replace Israel, He can replace the Church, too

[Guojing]

Not all (ethnic) Israel is (true) Israel.

This statement is saying that being ethnic Israel, is necessary, but not sufficient, to be true Israel

Which is also saying that you cannot be true Israel, if you are not ethnic Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

Not all (ethnic) Israel is (true) Israel.

Don't confuse the two in your understanding of NT doctrine.

False. All ethnic Israel is truly "Israel." They are not all truly "Spiritual Israel."

Can you with a straight face say that not all Americans are "Americans?" That not all English people are "English?" That not all Australians are "Australian?"

This is a truism. All in Israel who are Jewish are in fact "Israel." So what was Paul really saying?

Paul was indicating that not all among ethnic Jews would fulfill the role they are required to play to be a permanent part of the nation. In the OT language of the Law, there were to be "cut off"--not treated as if they were non-Jews.

 

[RandyPNW]

This statement is saying that being ethnic Israel, is necessary, but not sufficient, to be true Israel

Which is also saying that you cannot be true Israel, if you are not ethnic Israel.

Right. That's exactly what I was saying, that to be true to what Israel was called to be one must live by the Law of God for Israel. Otherwise, they would not become non-Israel. Rather, they would become *as if* they were not Israel, and would be cut off or sent away into exile, out of their land.

Hosea 1.6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7 Yet I will show love to Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but I, the Lord their God, will save them.”
8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

The sad truth in history is that the Northern Kingdom, who had abandoned their God in Jerusalem, and created false gods, were sent away by God into exile. And they ceased being "Israel" quite literally by merging in with their captive nation or with other nations, together with their gods.

But the Southern Kingdom, who worshiped their God rightfully in Jerusalem, even when they were sent away into exile for their sins, were able to return. They retained the title of "Israel," and represented all 12 tribes there, since many from the Northern Kingdom had migrated there to be with them.

Thus, not all who had been part of "Israel" would retain their title if they did not remain faithful to God's Law. They could be cut off and sent away, to merge with other pagan nations. This had nothing to do with calling any Jew "non-Israel." It was their choice to leave Israel that caused them to lose their status.

 

[Clare73]

This statement is saying that being ethnic Israel, is necessary, but not sufficient, to be true Israel

Which is also saying that you cannot be true Israel, if you are not ethnic Israel.

The apostolic teaching (Gal 3:29) of Christ (Lk 10:16) disagrees:

". . .you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (i.e., Israel) and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:16).

The true Israel who believes in her Messiah is not replaced, but is expanded, while the apostate Israel is cut off until it comes to faith in its Messiah (Ro 11:23).

 

[Clare73]

False. All ethnic Israel is truly "Israel." They are not all truly "Spiritual Israel."

Not according to the apostolic teaching (Ro 11:29-33) of Christ (Lk 10:16).
The true Israel believes in her Messiah. Unbelieving Israel is not true Israel.
Unbelief = broken off the one tree of God's people, not true Israel and replaced with Gentiles (Ro 11:19-23).

 

[RandyPNW]

The apostolic teaching (Gal 3:29) of Christ (Lk 10:16) disagrees:

". . .you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (i.e., Israel) and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:16).

The true Israel who believes in her Messiah is not replaced, but is expanded, while the apostate Israel is cut off until it comes to faith in its Messiah (Ro 11:23).

Your quotes have not a thing to do with the point you wished to make. The Abrahamic Promise guaranteed both national Israel and a company of nations who share the faith of Abraham.

The nations do not displace Israel, even if in the present age Israel has failed in their mission. The coming age may very well be Israel's opportunity to join the company of Christian nations who fulfill the promise God made to Abraham. All Israel needs to do is become a Christian nation, which will take place, I believe, at Christ's 2nd Coming. It will be Israel's 2nd chance.

Being "one in faith" does not prohibit distinctions of ethnicity. In fact, the promise God made to Abraham *requires* ethnic divisions. Oneness takes place *across ethnic lines.*

Israel is not "expanded" in their definition. Israel remains national Israel. If anything Israel is "added" to the company of nations who currently have faith.

 

[Clare73]

Your quotes have not a thing to do with the point you wished to make. The Abrahamic Promise guaranteed both national Israel and a company of nations who share the faith of Abraham.
The nations do not displace Israel, even if in the present age Israel has failed in their mission. The coming age may very well be Israel's opportunity to join the company of Christian nations who fulfill the promise God made to Abraham. All Israel needs to do is become a Christian nation, which will take place, I believe, at Christ's 2nd Coming. It will be Israel's 2nd chance.

Being "one in faith" does not prohibit distinctions of ethnicity. In fact, the promise God made to Abraham *requires* ethnic divisions. Oneness takes place *across ethnic lines.*

Israel is not "expanded" in their definition. Israel remains national Israel. If anything Israel is "added" to the company of nations who currently have faith.

The Israel of God (Gal 6:16), made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, is the new seed of Abraham and heir according to the promise (Gal 3:29).

 

[RandyPNW]

The Israel of God (Gal 6:16), made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, is the new seed of Abraham and heir according to the promise (Gal 3:29).

As I said, the promise, made to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ) requires both national Israel and a multiplicity of nations who share the faith of Israel. In the future, I believe national Israel will adopt the Christian faith, and so join the company of Christian nations who are all restored after Christ's 2nd Coming.

Though Christ is a singular seed, it is a collective seed, specifically requiring many nations who are either natural descendants or strictly spiritual descendants. This is not a "new seed," since the seed we call "Christ" began with the faith of Abraham when his wife, Sarah, gave birth to Isaac.

The collective "seed," from Isaac through to all Christians, is what we call the Body of Christ. That is what Paul meant by Christ being the exclusive "seed" of Abraham. It involves the exclusive faith that we all put in Christ as our Lord and Savior.

 

[Guojing]

The apostolic teaching (Gal 3:29) of Christ (Lk 10:16) disagrees:

". . .you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed (i.e., Israel) and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:16).

Galatians 3 tells us that Abraham was justified by faith alone without works, making him our father in faith in the Body of Christ as well. That is correct.

But that does not allow you to slip in the (i.e., Israel) into the meaning of what Paul was saying in Galatians 3

Israel came from Jacob.

Abraham has many descendants other than Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah's passing and had children after that (Genesis 25:1-4)

Just because we are Abraham's seed, it does not follow that we are therefore Israel.

Otherwise even the descendants of Keturah could claim to be Israel. (Genesis 25:1-4)

Learn to reason logically

 

[Clare73]

As I said, the promise, made to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ) requires both national Israel and a multiplicity of nations who share the faith of Israel. In the future, I believe national Israel will adopt the Christian faith, and so join the company of Christian nations who are all restored after Christ's 2nd Coming.

Paul was not that certain, for he stated their return conditionally; i.e., "if," not "when."

"IF" (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in." (Ro 11:23)

 

[Clare73]

Galatians 3 tells us that Abraham was justified by faith alone without works, making him our father in faith in the Body of Christ as well. That is correct.
But that does not allow you to slip in the (i.e., Israel) into the meaning of what Paul was saying in Galatians 3
Israel came from Jacob.

Abraham has many descendants other than Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah's passing and had children after that (Genesis 25:1-4)
Just because we are Abraham's seed, it does not follow that we are therefore Israel.
Otherwise even the descendants of Keturah could claim to be Israel. (Genesis 25:1-4)
Learn to reason logically

Learn to reason Biblically.

And methinks Paul got it right when he stated that if I belong to Christ, I inherit the promises to Abraham because I am Abraham's seed. (Gal 3:29).

 

[RandyPNW]

Pau was not that certain, for he stated their return conditionally; i.e., "if," not "when."

"IF" (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in." (Ro 11:23)

Clare, the "if" refers to the individual Jew, or group of Jews, who are still deciding if they are going to convert. The "when" is for the nation, which *must* come to be in the future. Regardless of individuals, or groups of individuals, who choose to reject Christ, ultimately the nation will be brought to the place where they will, as a nation, embrace Christianity. That is what Paul taught in Rom 11.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, the "if" refers to the individual Jew, or group of Jews, who are still deciding if they are going to convert. The "when" is for the nation,

There is no "when" in Ro 11:23, there is only "if."

 

[RandyPNW]

There is no "when" in Ro 11:23, there is only "if."

False. Rom 11:23 includes in its context the following...

Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

This is the "When." The full inclusion of the People of Israel will be after a temporary loss and after a temporary gain by the Gentile nations. In other words, it will be the same as Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse....

Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

We get another "When" here....

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Israel--the whole nation, will be politically saved when the Deliverer/Messiah will come to Jerusalem to deliver them from their sins, and to covenant with them on that basis. That is a "When!"

Again, "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" expresses "When." It is the same thing Jesus said, that Israel would be judged in 70 AD, leading to an age-long period of temporary denial of their hope.

But then, Messiah would come as Deliverer to bring spiritual revival and political restoration to the nation--not just a small remnant, but to the entire nation. The entire nation will become a "Christian nation."

 

[Clare73]

False. Rom 11:23 includes in its context the following...

The context is not the verse itself under discussion.

Rom 11.11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

And that is an incorrect translation of the Greek for the sake of one's theology.

The Greek is "fullness," it is not "full inclusion."
Their "fullness" is all that God has ordained to come in, which is not necessarily all.
Their "full inclusion" is necessarily all.

This is the "When." The full inclusion of the People of Israel will be after a temporary loss and after a temporary gain by the Gentile nations. In other words, it will be the same as Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse....
Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
We get another "When" here....
Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

That is all true Israel will be saved, apostate Israel for the last 2,000 years who reject the Messiah is not saved.

 

[Guojing]

And methinks Paul got it right when he stated that if I belong to Christ, I inherit the promises to Abraham because I am Abraham's seed. (Gal 3:29).

Paul, unlike you, did not slip in the (i.e., Israel) into that verse.

 

[RandyPNW]

The Greek is "fullness," it is not "full inclusion."

That is a distinction without a difference. "Fullness" means "full inclusion."

Their "fullness" is all that God has ordained to come in, which is not necessarily all.
Their "full inclusion" can only be all.

The context iinvolves inclusion of a full *nation.* It is not half a nation, or a part of a nation. It is not just a surviving few of the nation. (Amos 3.12) It is a full nation, poltically, with all of the necessary natural resources and provisions for government and homes for the people. It is not "all" without a reference pointit is "all" the *nation.*

That is all true Israel will be saved, apostate Israel for the last 2,000 years who reject the Messiah is not saved.

No, it isn't saying "True Israel" will be saved, but the entire *nation* of Israel will be saved. "True Israel" are those who persevere in their spiritual calling *before* the nation has been saved politically or *after* the nation has been saved politically.

The threat to Israel's existence was present in God's judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD and continuing through the NT era during the Jewish Diaspora. Zechariah 14 speaks of all nations being focused on defeating Jerusalem. So, this is about Israel's political survival, followed by a spiritual renaissance.

Rom 11.28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

This is not talking about "True Israel," or the Christian remnant of Jews in Israel. Rather, it is talking about God turning away from the nation temporarily, during the Jewish Diaspora.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Clare73]

Paul, unlike you, did not slip in the (i.e., Israel) into that verse.

And? . . .he also did not slip in the (Jesus) into the verse Eph 2:8-9.

So Israel is not Abraham's seed?

Paul was referring to the seed who inherit the promises, the descendants of either Ishmael or Isaac, not both.
The descendants of Ishamel do not inherit the promises and are not Israel.

 

[Clare73]

That is a distinction without a difference. "Fullness" means "full inclusion."

You need a better Biblical dictionary. . .

 

[RandyPNW]

You need a better Biblical dictionary. . .

I think we've exhausted this discussion...