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Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

childeye 2

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This sounds like gobbledy gook.
Do you comprehend how this framework is using a positive/negative dichotomy to establish sound reasoning when parsing semantics?

This is an objectively true dichotomy ---> Knowledge/ignorance. <-- Objectively Knowledge precedes ignorance
This is a subjectively true dichotomy ---> ignorance/Knowledge. <-- Subjectively ignorance precedes Knowledge
Equilibrium? What does that mean in the context of the circular justification needed to engage with inductive reasoning?
This is an objectively true dichotomy --> Knowledge/ignorance --> relative to Truth.

This --> Left/Right is an east/west dichotomy. It represents two opposing directions of SPIN each with their own left/right SUBJECTIVE view.

The left/right dichotomy is used to represent any two opposing yet equally valid subjective points of view in a three-dimensional framework. In this dichotomy the objectively true dichotomy Knowledge/ignorance exists as an abstract center between the left and right hand in both opposing subjective dimensions of reasoning.

In the east/west dichotomy a term that connotes a positive on the LEFT hand of one spin will connote a negative on the LEFT hand of the opposite spin. These two hands left/right represent a give/take or a take/give depending on the spin. Subsequently constant course correction is necessary to maintain an equilibrium.


So you're saying all of those things are tautological?
No. While I suppose the sentiment that the Creator existed before the creation could be considered a tautology, the dichotomy Creator/creation would not qualify as a true dichotomy. So, I'm saying that the term God is deemed as trustworthy and carries those sentiments as a course of theistic reasoning based on Faith.
Observed by who?
God and people.
Sure, but our perception of that reality is skewed by our point of view. My earlier example of sight remains a good example, since our vision is corrected(inverted and details filled in) compared to the stimuli the eyes respond to.
So what are you saying, you don't believe what you see?
I don't expect you to find any issue, I keep bringing it up in reference to your dogmatic approach to knowledge. Philosophical skepticism has nothing to do with trust/distrust, since it is a means to bring us to the end of ourselves; which is often required before we can see God.
I don't view my approach to knowledge as dogmatism since dogmatism implies based on opinion. Truth is not impotent. So like I've said over and over, my approach to knowledge is that facts are learned not imagined. You could accurately say my belief is that reality dictates what is factually true, not me.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Wow, sounds like you were doing great till you pushed the rebellion button. I don't mean to criticize, I've done the same thing. We need to think of better ways to say things keeping in mind we're dealing with damaged minds. Probably could have mentioned that only one of these images is true and the other false and whichever image WE believe in, will live in OUR hearts. Hence, it comes off as we're all the same.
Well, this was a long conversation that took place over several days; and I (as well as the at least 6 other people replying to his thread) had extended several suggestions. He was just stubbornly insistent on refuting everything EVERYONE said. I was just the one who spent the most time in the thread trying to help him change his mind.

As far as people being “broken”? You understand that we all are; and…. dang, ya know if all of us are commanded to repent, why’s he think he’s exempt? One testimony I’d seen on YouTube of a woman coming out of homosexuality stated: “The gospel costs all of us something.” (Which is true, in that we all have our crosses to bear. Which includes things we need repenting of too!)

So, yeah. I understand dealing with broken people. But again too; if we wish to justify ourselves; “Eternity” doesn’t hear our prayers either.

Although, I admit too, it can be hard to know which way to “call it”. Certainly true that we all need wisdom.
 
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Fervent

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Do you comprehend how this framework is using a positive/negative dichotomy to establish sound reasoning when parsing semantics?

This is an objectively true dichotomy ---> Knowledge/ignorance. <-- Objectively Knowledge precedes ignorance
This is a subjectively true dichotomy ---> ignorance/Knowledge. <-- Subjectively ignorance precedes Knowledge
No, I don't understand what you are trying to say with this, it seems to be a nonsequitor.
This is an objectively true dichotomy --> dichotomy Knowledge/ignorance --> relative to Truth.

This --> Left/Right is an east/west dichotomy. It represents two opposing directions of SPIN each with their own left/right SUBJECTIVE view.

The left/right dichotomy is used to represent any two opposing yet equally valid subjective points of view in a three-dimensional framework. In this dichotomy the objectively true dichotomy Knowledge/ignorance exists as an abstract center between the left and right hand in both opposing subjective dimensions of reasoning.

In the east/west dichotomy a term that connotes a positive on the LEFT hand of one spin will connote a negative on the LEFT hand of the opposite spin. These two hands left/right represent a give/take or a take/give depending on the spin. Subsequently constant course correction is necessary to maintain an equilibrium.
All of this seems to depend on assertions, with no clear criteria to distinguish the dichotomies nor any way to say anything meaningful based on them.
No. While I suppose the sentiment that the Creator existed before the creation could be considered a tautology, the dichotomy Creator/creation would not qualify as a true dichotomy. So, I'm saying that the term God is deemed as trustworthy and carries those sentiments as a course of theistic reasoning based on Faith.

God and people.

So what are you saying, you don't believe what you see?
Nope, I'm saying what I see is not enough to move to deeper knowledge. No mode of inference is possible without poisoning the well in some way.
I don't view my approach to knowledge as dogmatism since dogmatism implies based on opinion. Like I've said over and over, my approach to knowledge is that facts are learned not imagined. You could accurately say my belief is that reality dictates what is factually true, not me.
You may not view it as such, but it's the route you seem to be going with as your response to the trilemma. And while dogmatism does ordinarily convey that it is built on authority, it's synonymous with an axiomatic or definitional approach to solving the trilemma.
 
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childeye 2

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No, I don't understand what you are trying to say with this, it seems to be a nonsequitor.

This is an objectively true dichotomy ---> Knowledge/ignorance. <-- Objectively Knowledge precedes ignorance
This is a subjectively true dichotomy ---> ignorance/Knowledge. <-- Subjectively ignorance precedes Knowledge

Basically, the dichotomies are speaking, or rather conveying knowledge/ignorance of Truth on a fundamental and foundational level. They convey that --> The objective Truth we hopefully all come to realize, existed before us (The Eternal). Subsequently, these dichotomies also convey that the subjective view is a view coming out of ignorance into a knowledge that preceded our existence.

Hence, I can proclaim with complete certainty that knowledge of what is Truth is learned and not opined or imagined into existence by any creature.
All of this seems to depend on assertions, with no clear criteria to distinguish the dichotomies nor any way to say anything meaningful based on them.
Okay, well here is a basic presentation of how a left/right semantical framework operates.

Buyer/seller <--This is a valid left/right dichotomy because --> it represents two equally valid points of view. Each view has their own give/take and because they are facing one another, what is a positive on the left hand of one, is a negative on the left hand of the other. So that what looks like a good price for the buyer looks like a bad price for the seller. And what looks like a good price for the seller looks like a bad price for the buyer. The objective Truth which is where we would expect to find a fair price for both is therefore in the center.

This is another example of a valid left/right dichotomy --> Democracy/Autocracy <-- This is where we reason upon the delegation of power for setting policy in governance (politics). As we move to the left in this dichotomy it denotes the decentralizing of power and the more we move to the right the more that power becomes centralized.
Nope, I'm saying what I see is not enough to move to deeper knowledge. No mode of inference is possible without poisoning the well in some way.
What if I told you the only meaningful experience in reality we find, is that which we find through faith in the Eternal? Would that poison the well?
You may not view it as such, but it's the route you seem to be going with as your response to the trilemma. And while dogmatism does ordinarily convey that it is built on authority, it's synonymous with an axiomatic or definitional approach to solving the trilemma.
When I consider the infinite regressive Why? I must ponder if Why Not is infinitely progressive. At any rate, I'm on record showing the foundation of my reasoning and why I find that knowledge of what is Truth is learned and not opined or imagined into existence by any creature. And my belief/trust in the Eternal does not match dogmatism in any way shape or form.

I study sentiments in semantics, and deviant sentiments can be found hiding under the surface meanings of terms.

dogmatism​

noun

dog·ma·tism ˈdȯg-mə-ˌti-zəm
ˈdäg-

Synonyms of dogmatism
1
: the expression of an opinion or belief as if it were a fact : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant

2
: a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises

dogmatism

noun

ˈdȯg-mə-ˌti-zəm

Definition of dogmatism
Get Custom Synonyms
Enter your own sentence containing dogmatism , and get words to replace it.

as in intolerance
stubborn or intolerant adherence to one's opinions or prejudicesa man much given to inflexible dogmatismwhen it came to the role of government in regulating the economy
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Fervent

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This is an objectively true dichotomy ---> Knowledge/ignorance. <-- Objectively Knowledge precedes ignorance
This is a subjectively true dichotomy ---> ignorance/Knowledge. <-- Subjectively ignorance precedes Knowledge

Basically, the dichotomies are speaking, or rather conveying knowledge/ignorance of Truth on a fundamental and foundational level. They convey that --> The objective Truth we hopefully all come to realize, existed before us (The Eternal). Subsequently, these dichotomies also convey that the subjective view is a view coming out of ignorance into a knowledge that preceded our existence.
This all sounds like woo
Hence, I can proclaim with complete certainty that knowledge of what is Truth is learned and not opined or imagined into existence by any creature.
Certainty? Quite the claim.
Okay, well here is a basic presentation of how a left/right semantical framework operates.

Buyer/seller <--This is a valid left/right dichotomy because --> it represents two equally valid points of view. Each view has their own give/take and because they are facing one another, what is a positive on the left hand of one, is a negative on the left hand of the other. So that what looks like a good price for the buyer looks like a bad price for the seller. And what looks like a good price for the seller looks like a bad price for the buyer. The objective Truth which is where we would expect to find a fair price for both is therefore in the center.

This is another example of a valid left/right dichotomy --> Democracy/Autocracy <-- This is where we reason upon the delegation of power for setting policy in governance (politics). As we move to the left in this dichotomy it denotes the decentralizing of power and the more we move to the right the more that power becomes centralized.
Is this something you made up, or is it something you read somewhere?
What if I told you the only meaningful experience in reality we find, is that which we find through faith in the Eternal? Would that poison the well?
In a way, at least if we were attempting to relentlessly question what we believe to be true.
When I consider the infinite regressive Why? I must ponder if Why Not is infinitely progressive. At any rate, I'm on record showing the foundation of my reasoning and why I find that knowledge of what is Truth is learned and not opined or imagined into existence by any creature. And my belief/trust in the Eternal does not match dogmatism in any way shape or form.

I study sentiments in semantics, and deviant sentiments can be found hiding under the surface meanings of terms.

dogmatism​

noun

dog·ma·tism ˈdȯg-mə-ˌti-zəm
ˈdäg-

Synonyms of dogmatism
1
: the expression of an opinion or belief as if it were a fact : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant

2
: a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises

dogmatism

noun

ˈdȯg-mə-ˌti-zəm

Definition of dogmatism
Get Custom Synonyms
Enter your own sentence containing dogmatism , and get words to replace it.

as in intolerance
stubborn or intolerant adherence to one's opinions or prejudicesa man much given to inflexible dogmatismwhen it came to the role of government in regulating the economy
Synonyms & Similar Words
Relevance



Here's a snippet from an AI summary of the dogmatic solution to the Munchhausen Trilemma:
A dogmatic solution to the Münchhausen Trilemma involves accepting some beliefs or precepts as true without proof, simply because they are foundational for all other knowledge or justification, effectively ending the chain of questioning by asserting that certain starting points are non-negotiable.

End snippet.

What makes your approach dogmatic is that you assert that these dichotomies are foundational, but I can still ask why this is so, or how you know that these dichotomies are truly foundational so you've abruptly put a stop to the questioning before we hit bottom.
 
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childeye 2

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This all sounds like woo
Woo? Please elaborate.

Certainty? Quite the claim.
Think so? Or is this sarcasm?

Is this something you made up, or is it something you read somewhere?
To what exactly are you referring? If you sincerely want to know I'd think you'd be precise. I know I would.
In a way, at least if we were attempting to relentlessly question what we believe to be true.
These are the qualities of Person I believe to be True/Eternal without question, alongside the depravity.

True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.
Here's a snippet from an AI summary of the dogmatic solution to the Munchhausen Trilemma:
A dogmatic solution to the Münchhausen Trilemma involves accepting some beliefs or precepts as true without proof, simply because they are foundational for all other knowledge or justification, effectively ending the chain of questioning by asserting that certain starting points are non-negotiable.

End snippet.

What makes your approach dogmatic is that you assert that these dichotomies are foundational, but I can still ask why this is so, or how you know that these dichotomies are truly foundational so you've abruptly put a stop to the questioning before we hit bottom.
I don't get it. Is this Munchhausen thing some litmus test through which you view reality and project onto others?

I can't help it that the qualities in these foundational dichotomies are self-evident positives to me, particularly when shown alongside the depravity -->

True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.

Here is what you said on the record --> "I can still ask why this is so, or how you know that these dichotomies are truly foundational ".

So, let me ask you, how are these positive qualities which we experience in reality NOT self-evident when viewed alongside the depravity?



I expect an honest answer.
 
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Fervent

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Woo? Please elaborate.
Putting it bluntly, to me it appears to be pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
Think so? Or is this sarcasm?
Certainty is a really high bar to reach, so yeah I would say certainty is a big claim.
To what exactly are you referring? If you sincerely want to know I'd think you'd be precise. I know I would.
Your whole dichotomy framework for undergirding knowledge. Is that something you were taught, read somewhere, or came up with yourself?
These are the qualities of Person I believe to be True/Eternal without question, alongside the depravity.

True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.
Ok?
I don't get it. Is this Munchhausen thing some litmus test through which you view reality?
Sort of, I'm a philosophical skeptic...which doesn't mean I live in perpetual doubt or question things without end. Simply that I do not believe there is an adequate reply to Munchhausen's trilemma such that we can claim to know anything beyond what is present to us. In particular it is a denial that we can know deep "truths" like cosmic history and questions of origins or what stuff is made out of. At least not from our own faculties.
I can't help it that the qualities in these dichotomies are self-evident to me when shown alongside the depravity --> True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.
I understand that, and my statements aren't meant as criticisms of how you make sense of the craziness we call reality. If you are satisfied with your self-evident truths, more power to you. But if they are offered only on the strength of how apparent they are to you, don't be surprised when people dismiss what you say without consideration.
So, let me ask you, how are these positive qualities which we experience in reality not worth believing in?
It's not a matter of what is worth believing or not, but recognizing what the basis of our beliefs truly is. Faith is not an intellectual attribute, and often the only way we find it is in the desperation that comes when we run out of excuses not to believe.
 
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childeye 2

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Putting it bluntly, to me it appears to be pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
That's okay. I get it. Some people are going to think I talk just to listen to myself, and some are going to believe I'm sincere and genuine. I think about projection all the time. But do you understand it or not? Specifically, do you KNOW how to tell facts from opinions, so that you can honestly state what is self-evident and what isn't? <--- Does this make sense to you?

You might ask what this has to do with semantic analysis? Some people don't know how to parse facts from opinions, and it shows in how they apply the words they use in sentence structures revealing either positive or negative prejudice. They therefore will draw inferences that are errors in reasoning if negative, and they become disconnected from reality as they build error upon error. Hence, we project what's in our hearts.

Certainty is a really high bar to reach, so yeah I would say certainty is a big claim.
The certainty that facts are learned and not imagined would be the self-evident lowest bar of don't lie. As sure as seeing I have toes that are not imaginary. I don't get your hesitancy to hold that conviction.
Your whole dichotomy framework for undergirding knowledge. Is that something you were taught, read somewhere, or came up with yourself?

You're misunderstanding me for some reason of error. I suspect it's because you still don't understand how I parse fact from opinion. It's not a framework for undergirding knowledge. To be clear, the entire Universe and God Himself are not built upon MY whole dichotomy framework.

I learned how to do semantic analysis by studying semantics particular to psycholinguistics. If you think that sounds like woo, trust me it's not. Everyone does it to some extent every time we try to understand what others are expressing.

Semantics are the sentiments that words carry. Unlike common definitions in a dictionary, each person has their own unique subjective nuances in the meanings of the words we commonly use. These nuances are referred to as psycholinguistics (words in thought) because the sentiments begin in the thought process we mean to express. And even though we all use common words, they carry meaning/feelings unique for every person. Hence words in thought have power, and these meanings can alter beliefs and behavior because we reason upon them in our minds and act accordingly.

So, I use a framework of dichotomies to establish sound reasoning and to conduct semantic analysis, NOT undergird knowledge.

And I indicated that here:
childeye 2 said:
Do you comprehend how this framework is using a positive/negative dichotomy to establish sound reasoning when parsing semantics?


So, you understand, I find these dichotomies to be speaking to the most meaningful self-evident knowledge to be gained as we experience reality. These dichotomies represent energy that moves people in positive and negative ways.

True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.

Look again, the above are all objectively True dichotomies. These are just some of them, but they all show a meaning through contrasting the negative against the positive. These dichotomies power, by definition, the most meaningful sentiments words can carry. It means everyone KNOWS what these are.

Do you see Honesty/dishonesty? It's honesty to proclaim what is self-evident. I would be a lie to say that what is self-evident, is not self-evident. This is why a witness who lies under oath about what they saw is committing a crime. They don't get to say, 'I don't believe in anything self-evident" or "Certainty is a really high bar to reach, so yeah I would say certainty is a big claim".

Sort of, I'm a philosophical skeptic...which doesn't mean I live in perpetual doubt or question things without end. Simply that I do not believe there is an adequate reply to Munchhausen's trilemma such that we can claim to know anything beyond what is present to us. In particular it is a denial that we can know deep "truths" like cosmic history and questions of origins or what stuff is made out of. At least not from our own faculties.
I don't see any need to reply to the trilemma. We need to be able to differentiate between facts and opinions, and to do that we need to say what is self-evident and what isn't, without calling it dogmatism.

I understand that, and my statements aren't meant as criticisms of how you make sense of the craziness we call reality. If you are satisfied with your self-evident truths, more power to you. But if they are offered only on the strength of how apparent they are to you, don't be surprised when people dismiss what you say without consideration.
In my psycholinguistics, craziness is a symptom of being disconnected from reality. Above you say your statements are NOT meant as criticisms. Yet you contend that some people might dismiss me out of hand as if I alone can see what these dichotomies mean in reality. But these are self-evident as sure as I see my toes or you see yours, if you have toes. So, it occurs to me that you don't want to admit they're real because of the Munchhausen trilemma's effect on you.

A quick analysis of your sentiments above shows the same recurring error in processing information. You say "YOUR" self-evident truths. That reveals that YOU BELIEVE those truths are subjective, and not objective factual truths we all trust/believe in. Or perhaps the term 'belief' in your psycholinguistics only carries the sentiment of 'not-factual', so when you think, see, or hear, or use it, you don't factor in that 'belief' can also convey the sentiment of 'trusting" in something that is 'real' and 'trustworthy' just like the ground we walk on.


But you said, -->"What makes your approach dogmatic is that you assert that these dichotomies are foundational, but I can still ask why this is so".
Foundational for sound reasoning. True/false. <-- denotes a meaning in both substance and absence of substance, which we can reason upon with clarity <-- identifying the positive and the negative in a dichotomy does not qualify as dogmatism nor an assertion.

It's not a matter of what is worth believing or not, but recognizing what the basis of our beliefs truly is.
Sound reasoning is always a matter of what is worth believing or not. What we trust in matters because we reason upon what we believe/trust to be true. I see goodness/wickedness in reality. I can see that wickedness is a power, but I can't believe/trust in wickedness as the Eternal power. It's self-evident that wickedness is a depravity. I'd be a liar to say it's self-evident that wickedness is a virtue.
 
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Hawkins

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Human ability is way overrated in terms of evidence. Evidence comes scarcely due to the fact that humans in general lack the ability and capacity to examine evidence. We don't need evidence, we are sitting home to gather news, either to swallow or to reject by faith while neglecting any investigation. We let go our faith on a mass media we deemed credible to swallow what presented as facts, with absolutely zero investigation. That's how we get to truth due to the lack of actual ability to do investigation (which requires us to spend time to go to the scene on site to gather evidence, you can't do this through your high resolution computer monitor. You are sitting home watching your monitor with faith without actually doing anything else, that's how you and other humans in majority to reach the so-called truth (or the lack thereof).

That's why if the mass media are inconsistent, humans are lost without a clue. Is it Trump or Biden actually won the votes of the 2020 US election? You watch CNN and swallow to accept that Biden won, or Fox News to accept that Trump won. You don't investigate at all, the next step you take is to grab a gun to rush into the US Capitol (no sane humans will do that if evidence is actually available). They are driven nuts simply because the mass media are inconsistent while "evidence"/"investigation" is never a viable way out.

So don't sound as if you do investigations. It's a g*d d*mn delusion from the devil himself!
 
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childeye 2

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Human ability is way overrated in terms of evidence. Evidence comes scarcely due to the fact that humans in general lack the ability and capacity to examine evidence. We don't need evidence, we are sitting home to gather news, either to swallow or to reject by faith while neglecting any investigation. We let go our faith on a mass media we deemed credible to swallow what presented as facts, with absolutely zero investigation. That's how we get to truth due to the lack of actual ability to do investigation (which requires us to spend time to go to the scene on site to gather evidence, you can't do this through your high resolution computer monitor. You are sitting home watching your monitor with faith without actually doing anything else, that's how you and other humans in majority to reach the so-called truth (or the lack thereof).

That's why if the mass media are inconsistent, humans are lost without a clue. Is it Trump or Biden actually won the votes of the 2020 US election? You watch CNN and swallow to accept that Biden won, or Fox News to accept that Trump won. You don't investigate at all, the next step you take is to grab a gun to rush into the US Capitol (no sane humans will do that if evidence is actually available). They are driven nuts simply because the mass media are inconsistent while "evidence"/"investigation" is never a viable way out.

So don't sound as if you do investigations. It's a g*d d*mn delusion from the devil himself!
Devil=accuser/slanderer.

The Truth preceded the lie in existence because the lie only exists to undermine the truth.

It's therefore reasonable to presume someone innocent until proven guilty. It's unreasonable to presume someone guilty until proven innocent. This is the difference between positive prejudice and negative prejudice. <--- Only one of these fulfills Love your neighbor as yourself, while the other undermines the truth of it.
 
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The Barbarian

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The Catholic Church has what I believe to be a very realistic take on this issue. The doctrine of Invincible Ignorance determines whether or not one is culpable.

"Invincible ignorance excuses from all culpability. An action committed in ignorance of the law prohibiting it, or of the facts of the case, is not a voluntary act". On the other hand, it is culpable to remain willfully ignorant of matters that one is obligated to know (vincible ignorance). In this case the individual is morally responsible for their ignorance, and for the acts resulting from it. The guilt associated with an offense committed in ignorance is less than it would have been if the act were committed in full knowledge, because in that case the offense is less voluntary.
 
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childeye 2

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The Catholic Church has what I believe to be a very realistic take on this issue. The doctrine of Invincible Ignorance determines whether or not one is culpable.

"Invincible ignorance excuses from all culpability. An action committed in ignorance of the law prohibiting it, or of the facts of the case, is not a voluntary act". On the other hand, it is culpable to remain willfully ignorant of matters that one is obligated to know (vincible ignorance). In this case the individual is morally responsible for their ignorance, and for the acts resulting from it. The guilt associated with an offense committed in ignorance is less than it would have been if the act were committed in full knowledge, because in that case the offense is less voluntary.
Yes, but what spirit is living inside a person according to what we trust in? In the case of slander where a person hears something slanderous said about others, and then spreads it, one might claim ignorance on the basis that there was no evidence proving it untrue. This is why negative prejudice is not of God's Spirit.
 
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childeye 2

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Is that like today’s notion that anyone can be accused and remains guilty until proven innocent... if they are lucky
I'm not sure what you mean to convey. Is this a joke that is over my head? Oh, wait I think I get it, I think you're saying one would have to get lucky to be found innocent. :oldthumbsup:
 
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zippy2006

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You can't blame someone for being gullible.
Of course you can. Gullibility is a blameworthy trait.

But you can blame them if you intentionally promote a belief that any honest investigation would prove false.
The problem with your approach is that it involves both a double standard and a distancing of yourself from "the deplorables." So you've answered a philosophical question with a partisan answer.

Terms like "any honest investigation" are subjective flubber. Your case continually relies on that sort of subjective flubber, and each time it involves a begging of the question. This form of partisanship bottoms out in the incoherence of intersubjective theories of truth, or democratic truth-making.

We could fold over your own approach against you: "You can blame them if they are a dishonest person," where "dishonest person" just means "someone who does not agree with me." Given that you cannot flesh out your notion of "honesty" beyond a question-begging redundancy, you aren't giving any sort of substantive answer to the OP. A substantive, philosophical answer would be one that encompasses both you and your opponents, not one that magically separates you from the deplorables.

(Your account is also wrong. There are no contextless culpabilities. There is no material proposition that cannot be honestly held. Folks who think such a thing usually can't see beyond their own bias. For example, there are honest flat-earthers. There is no proposition such that to hold it and to hold it dishonestly are the same thing.)
 
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Bradskii

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Of course you can. Gullibility is a blameworthy trait.
If you want to blame someone for that then it's up to you.
The problem with your approach is that it involves both a double standard and a distancing of yourself from "the deplorables."
I'm pretty certain that somewhere upstream I said something along the lines of 'we are all susceptible to...'. I'm certainly not excluding me from any of the faults that have been discussed. Please don't consider this to be an 'us v them' position.
We could fold over your own approach against you: "You can blame them if they are a dishonest person," where "dishonest person" just means "someone who does not agree with me." Given that you cannot flesh out your notion of "honesty" beyond a question-begging redundancy...
Dishonesty is a pretty easy term to define. So much so that I shan't even bother linking to a dictionary definition. But let's use an example. Say someone is arguing for less immigration. There are reasonable arguments to be made for that position. But let's say that someone blames a lot of crime on immigrants, therefore there should be less. You'd be quite entitled to post links and facts and figures to show that the crime rate among immigrants is lower than the general population, so they can't use that as a reason. And you'll generally not get a response to that because a) it's true, and b) accepting it removes one of the main arguments that the person wants to use.

So that's now off the table. You can move on to taxes, job rates etc. But what you will often find is the same argument used by the same person further downstream, or in a different thread. They might say that they actually believe what they are saying. But they have no evidence for it and have been presented with evidence to the contrary. They are then being....what was the term..? Ah yes. Dishonest.
Your account is also wrong. There are no contextless culpabilities. There is no material proposition that cannot be honestly held. Folks who think such a thing usually can't see beyond their own bias. For example, there are honest flat-earthers. There is no proposition such that to hold it and to hold it dishonestly are the same thing.
I'm pretty certain that flat earthers are honest, law abiding people. But you can actually prove to them that some of their arguments are wrong. So they'll ignore that argument and head off somewhere else. That's being dishonest.
 
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Niels

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Of course you can. Gullibility is a blameworthy trait.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." As the saying goes.

Gullibility implies trust. Those who break the trust are culpable. After trust is broken, however, gullibility is blameworthy. Not before.
 
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