How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[boughtwithaprice]

Heres some more context to that passage

Mat 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

If we do not believe and have Him and His word abiding in us, the Scriptures won't matter. The word of God needs to live inside us so we are doers of His word, not just hearers James 1:22. They read the Scriptures, but didn't believe Jesus even through the Scriptures testified of Him. He goes on to say this For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Like the testimony of Moses in the Scriptures of what was inside the ark of the covenant,


We are told very clearly, the word it to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 outside God;s word, there is no light Isa 8:20

Most of your post I agree with, but you fail to note that the Old Testament was a shadow of things to come. We are now living in the New Covenant. The old Ark is lost as it is not needed. The temple is destroyed not one stone upon another because it is no longer needed.

People are now the temple of the Holy Spirit and the Ark of the New Covenant is our Blessed mother Mary. Jesus even says behold thy mother. He did not say hey John do me a favor and take care of my mother. He said to Mary behold thy son signifying that disciples are now sons of Mary. As revelation says the seed of the woman keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

You can try to explain it away by your own personal interpretation, but you cannot produce scripture which explicitly denies it

Jesus said to be as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Children need a mother
We do not worship Mary, but we humble ourselves before the one who bore God Himself, because it is God’s will. He planned it that way

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Most of your post I agree with, but you fail to note that the Old Testament was a shadow of things to come.

There is no Scripture that says this. Jesus said to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting OT Mat 4:4

We are now living in the New Covenant.

Agreed

The old Ark is lost as it is not needed.

No Scripture says this. The ark is not lost its in God's Temple in Heaven Exo 15:5 Rev 11:19 the earthy temple was a copy of the heavenly Temple Heb 8:1-5

The temple is destroyed not one stone upon another because it is no longer needed.

The earthy temple, indeed, but Jesus minsters from a heavenly temple Heb 9:24 Heb 8:1-5

People are now the temple of the Holy Spirit

Yes, we are His vessel and temple according to Scripture 1 Corinthians 3:16 for those who are not rebelling against Him Heb 3:7-19 Rom8:7-8 but are abiding in Him John 15:5,10 1 John 3:24 1 John 2:6

and the Ark of the New Covenant is our Blessed mother Mary

Not in Scripture and we are told not to add to God's holy word.

. Jesus even says behold thy mother.

Has nothing to do with the ark of the Covenant that was already defined what is in it and where it is in clear Scriptures

He did not say hey John do me a favor and take care of my mother. He said to Mary behold thy son signifying that disciples are now sons of Mary. As revelation says the seed of the woman keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Still has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments- God's Testimony that He will not alter Psa 89:34 that are inside the ark of the Covenant Exo 40:20 Exo 31:18 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19

The seed of the women is His church which is a remnant- meaning a small remainder of the orginal who keep the commandments of God (His version) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev 12:17

You can try to explain it away by your own personal interpretation, but you cannot produce scripture which explicitly denies it

I do not need to explain anything I quote Scripture and believe it. Sadly what you are accusing me of is exactly what you're doing.

These verses do not need explaining, they are explicit. We just need believe. Just like Jesus said, if you do not believe the writings of Moses, you don't believe Him.

Exo 40:20He took the Testimony and put it into the ark, inserted the poles through the rings of the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark.
Exo 24:16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

God made the earthy temple as a miniature of His heavenly temple Heb 8:1-5 So no need to guess what is in it when Scripture tells us plainly,

Heb 9:4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

His ark remains in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 as its the standard of God's judgment (His version, not mans) Rev 11:18-19 James 2:11, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30

Jesus said to be as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Children need a mother

Says no Scripture- the only thing we need is God. Everything else is icing

Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

We do not worship Mary,

Ok, not for me to judge.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So, in order to be a whole unified body, we have to agree scripturally, or we will continue to be fragmented sitting in echo chambers, listening to the same thing over and over that you are used to because it ties in with what you already believe and accept. Most people don't want to have theological debates because it makes them uncomfortable. But until people get over that, come to the table and have discussions that MAKE you uncomfortable, we will never be unified.

I agree. This so called unity at the comprise of biblical Truth is not coming from God. We are only sanctified by the Truth of God”s Word John 17:17 and sadly what comes in the end is strong delusion where one can’t see the clear Scriptures as they read and can’t distinguish the difference between Truth and lies. 2 The 2:11 where one will think they are doing Gods work when they are not.

Jesus doesn’t want us unified on a lie. Jesus is Truth John 14:6 His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151 His word is Truth. John 17:17 Only His Truth sets us free. John 8:32

Mat 10: 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set[a] a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

 

[Jerry N.]

I'm not well qualified to answer either of your other questions and I worry that if I gave my own unqualified answers, it would give you the wrong impression, so I'll leave those for someone more mature in the orthodox faith to respond to.

I will say though that the line between heterodoxy and heresy is probably not well defined, and one shouldn't be comfortable existing in either state.

Thanks, it has been an interesting discussion.

 

[Jerry N.]

The error that you make is that Protestant thought is the arbiter of God. Scripture is a testimony of God, and is not God Himself. If you limit God strictly to scriptures, you commit the error of the Pharisees in John 5.

39- Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me 40 And you will not come to me that you may have life.
41 I receive glory not from men. 42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek?


Christ Himself does not limit God to the scriptures. Christ is a person, not a book. Scripture is a testimony, not a person.
Scripture itself in Paul’s letter to Timothy does not say that scripture is all there is. It says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Christ laments Jerusalem, He does not say oh Jerusalem, you who did not read the book. No!
He cries Jerusalem, you who slew the prophets
God sends people not books.
If we limit God to a book, we lose everything else God has given us. Scriptures says he gave some Apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. These are people , not books. If we ignore the people sent to us, how can we claim to believe the book written about them?
Even the Bereans, so often used in support of scripture only, merely used the scriptures to validate Paul as an Apostle, they did not use scripture to discard Paul and go off on their own
Scriptures testify of Jesus and His Church. There is no justification to use them to discard the people that God has sent to us

Although I don’t agree with everything SabbathBlessings writes, His post above (#572) is a better response than I would have written.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

There is no Scripture that says this. Jesus said to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting OT Mat 4:4

Agreed

No Scripture says this. The ark is not lost its in God's Temple in Heaven Exo 15:5 Rev 11:19 the earthy temple was a copy of the heavenly Temple Heb 8:1-5

The earthy temple, indeed, but Jesus minsters from a heavenly temple Heb 9:24 Heb 8:1-5

Yes, we are His vessel and temple according to Scripture 1 Corinthians 3:16 for those who are not rebelling against Him Heb 3:7-19 Rom8:7-8 but are abiding in Him John 15:5,10 1 John 3:24 1 John 2:6


Not in Scripture and we are told not to add to God's holy word.

Has nothing to do with the ark of the Covenant that was already defined what is in it and where it is in clear Scriptures

Still has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments- God's Testimony that He will not alter Psa 89:34 that are inside the ark of the Covenant Exo 40:20 Exo 31:18 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19

The seed of the women is His church which is a remnant- meaning a small remainder of the orginal who keep the commandments of God (His version) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev 12:17

I do not need to explain anything I quote Scripture and believe it. Sadly what you are accusing me of is exactly what you're doing.

These verses do not need explaining, they are explicit. We just need believe. Just like Jesus said, if you do not believe the writings of Moses, you don't believe Him.

Exo 40:20He took the Testimony and put it into the ark, inserted the poles through the rings of the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark.
Exo 24:16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

God made the earthy temple as a miniature of His heavenly temple Heb 8:1-5 So no need to guess what is in it when Scripture tells us plainly,

Heb 9:4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

His ark remains in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 as its the standard of God's judgment (His version, not mans) Rev 11:18-19 James 2:11, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30

Says no Scripture- the only thing we need is God. Everything else is icing

Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Ok, not for me to judge.

For all your statements that you follow scripture the statement that there is a heavenly temple is a lie or at best a grave misunderstanding on your part. John says there is no temple in heaven
He was there and he should know

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple and the Lamb.

You also gloss over Colossians 2:16-17. These verses say that sabbath days are just a shadow, but you say they are reality. The Catholic Church honors the Sabbath, but we realize it is a shadow, Christ is the reality according to Collosians 2:17
It’s as if you are so fascinated by the shadow that you refuse to turn your head and look at the one casting the shadow, and you insist that everyone do as you do and refuse to look at scriptures that actually contradict your narrative, that shows me your are mistaken and not capable of speaking for God
I believe that you want to serve God and desire to be free from error, but someone or something has fixed your gaze away from the truth

The Catholic Church is here to help you, not condemn you. You miss out on all the incredible graces God has in store for you when you waste your day staring at shadows and believing fables that are not true. Scripture says that there is no heavenly temple. There is a City of God, but there is no temple therein. We won’t need shadows anymore, we will see face to face

You only have to turn around and behold Jesus Christ to know that the shadow is not reality

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For all your statements that you follow scripture the statement that there is a heavenly temple is a lie or at best a grave misunderstanding on your part. John says there is no temple in heaven
He was there and he should know

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple and the Lamb.

Let me bring in some more context . . .this is after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.



The heavenly Temple is very much in heaven now before His Second Coming where Jesus ministers as High Priest. Judgement and final atonement for those written in the Book of Life, has not happened yet.

Why this is revealed at the last trumpet before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of [i]His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

We do not need to guess what is in the ark of the Covenant because Scripture tells us- the Ten Commandments- His Testimony what we will all be judged by James 2:11-12 Judgement is based on His standard, not ours James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 11:18-19 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:21-23 etc


We see clearly there is a heavenly Temple now

Heb 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of [a]His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You also gloss over Colossians 2:16-17. These verses say that sabbath days are just a shadow, but you say they are reality. The Catholic Church honors the Sabbath, but we realize it is a shadow, Christ is the reality according to Collosians 2:17
It’s as if you are so fascinated by the shadow that you refuse to turn your head and look at the one casting the shadow, and you insist that everyone do as you do and refuse to look at scriptures that actually contradict your narrative, that shows me your are mistaken and not capable of speaking for God
I believe that you want to serve God and desire to be free from error, but someone or something has fixed your gaze away from the truth

I have prayerfully studied Col 2:16-17 many times, so nothing is glossed over on my side.

So lets bring more context into Col 2:16-17. There are more than one sabbath in the Scripture. Paul was told to spread the gospel, not change God's commandments written by God Himself, that God promised He would not alter. Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 If we look at the context closely its obvious Paul is not contradicting Jesus and God on His holy Sabbath- God's own Testimony, that is in heaven Exo 15:5 Rev 11:19 where His word is settled Psa 119:89. God blessed, man cannot take away God's blessing or sanctification. Almost all Scripture on the Sabbath has a thus saith the Lord- God blessed, man cannot reverse Num 23:20 and Paul's writings came with a significant warning 2 Peter 3:16 so we must be very careful with his writings and compare it to other Scriptures, such a Jesus own testimony saying His Sabbath would not end at the Cross but His faithful would be keeping 40 years after Mat 24:20 and also for eternity Isa 66:23


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So these are things that are against man. Is the Sabbath that is holy, sanctified and blessed by God against man?

Lets look at what Jesus said:

Mat 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man

The Sabbath was made for man, what God makes for man is not against man. The Sabbath is blessed and sanctified by God, its not the definition of contrary and against.

Context doesn't fit. Basically with this understanding it is saying God was against man from Creation and made the Sabbath to be contrary and against man right from the beginning. This is a very sad teaching and one not coming from God. God made Creation according to His perfect will and plan when the Sabbath started Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 made for man Mark 2:27

So looking at the immediate context shows clearly Paul is not speaking of the Sabbath commandment. Nor does Paul have the authority to change God's written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 the words of the covenant Exo 34:28 that God promised He would not alter Psa 89:34 they went from written on tables of stone to written on tablets of the heart 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.

Right here is enough to know Paul is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but lets keep going.

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath in the Ten Commandments started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

There is so much more evidence I could provide like comparing what Jesus said which in using Col 2:14-16 against the Sabbath commandment contradicts His teachings. Hopefully this will be looked at in prayer as I know this is a popular teaching, but the context does not fit the Sabbath commandment written by the finger of God that is part of God's holy and eternal law Mat 5:18-19 Isa 66:23. If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 Exo 20:6, the Sabbath is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 Exo 20:1-17

 

[tall73]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So these are things that are against man. Is the Sabbath that is holy, sanctified and blessed by God against man?

What was against man was not the Sabbath, or the ceremonial law. The ceremonial law was a shadow pointing to the heavenly reality, fulfilled in Christ. It was not against us. What was against us is our sin.

The text refers to a handwritten certificate of debt, in ordinances.

We owed a price we could not pay, and Jesus paid it for us.

Verse 13 and 14 are all one thought, with the participle of verse 14 introducing a further elaboration on the forgiveness of all our sins in verse 13.

Colossians 2:13-15​

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

The term χειρογραφον refers to a hand-written bond. We see an example of such in the book of Philemon, where Paul writes with his own hand that he will repay anything that Onesimus owes Philemon:

Philemon 1:17-19​

17 If then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me. 18 But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. 19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay—not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides. (NKJV)​

We have examples of this usage of the word in contemporary koine Greek writings. And we can see it reflected in some of the newer translations:

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. ESV​

​

Then is described His triumph over sin and death, and the devil . It is described in terms of a Roman triumph, where the victor would parade under an arch of triumph, carrying trophies, and prisoners.

​

15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (NKJV)​

​

It was through the cross that Jesus defeated these powers, disarmed them by removing our sin, so that they were defeated.

See I Corinthians 15

​

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 55 “O Death, where is your sting?​

O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJV)​

​

See also Hebrews 2:

Hebrews 2:14-15 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (NKJV)​

​

 

[Delvianna]

I agree, but I would add that the problem is not just errors in doctrine. I’m convinced that we are probably all guilty of that in some way. Many things are not 100% clear in Scripture and have been debated since the beginning, and this can lead to a desire to study God’s word. I’m sure there are errors that can lead to damnation, but I think the biggest problem is that some people follow an organization more than Christ. However, God’s love and grace can still lead people to Him, as long as Christ’s death and resurrection is presented to them.

Philippians 1:18-- What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Yes, but the bible is clear we are to strive for righteousness everyday. So while some theological errors can be overlooked, that are those that cant because the very practice on a continual basis can cause that person to be in the "I never knew you" category.

It's like the idea that you cant call yourself a witch and a christian and still claim to be saved. Some things arent leading you to life, but to destruction and some Catholic practices are doing just that.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What was against man was not the Sabbath, or the ceremonial law. The ceremonial law was a shadow pointing to the heavenly reality, fulfilled in Christ. It was not against us. What was against us is our sin.

The text refers to a handwritten certificate of debt, in ordinances.

We owed a price we could not pay, and Jesus paid it for us.

Verse 13 and 14 are all one thought, with the participle of verse 14 introducing a further elaboration on the forgiveness of all our sins in verse 13.

Colossians 2:13-15​

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

The term χειρογραφον refers to a hand-written bond. We see an example of such in the book of Philemon, where Paul writes with his own hand that he will repay anything that Onesimus owes Philemon:

Philemon 1:17-19​

17 If then you count me as a partner, receive him as you would me. 18 But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. 19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay—not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides. (NKJV)​

We have examples of this usage of the word in contemporary koine Greek writings. And we can see it reflected in some of the newer translations:

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. ESV​

​

Then is described His triumph over sin and death, and the devil . It is described in terms of a Roman triumph, where the victor would parade under an arch of triumph, carrying trophies, and prisoners.

​

15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (NKJV)​

​

It was through the cross that Jesus defeated these powers, disarmed them by removing our sin, so that they were defeated.

See I Corinthians 15

​

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 55 “O Death, where is your sting?​

O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJV)​

​

See also Hebrews 2:

Hebrews 2:14-15 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (NKJV)​

​

Yes, sin is against man. Rom 6:23 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 - His version, not mans James 2:11 Rom7:7 Mat 5:19-30


But if you look at the context as shown, its referring to animal sacrifices, which was the shadow of things to come Col 2:17 Heb 10:1-10, the substance is Jesus Christ, the Lamb who can take away the sins of the world. 1 John 1:9. Animal sacrifices could never do that, there was always a reminder of sin, year after year Heb 10:1-10 though the blood of Christ if we confess our sins 1 John 1:9 and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 through Jesus Christ and our great love of Him John 14:15-18 He is faithful to cleanse us of all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 Amen!

 

[tall73]

That the handwriting of ordinances referred to the certificate of debt is seen in the writings of those who knew the language, lived closer to the time, and wrote on this passage. I do not cite these as authoritative. They themselves refer to the Scriptures as authoritative on the point. However, these point out the meaning of the term clearly.

Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

Therefore, by remitting sins, He did indeed heal man, while He also manifested Himself who He was. For if no one can forgive sins but God alone, while the Lord remitted them and healed men, it is plain that He was Himself the Word of God made the Son of man, receiving from the Father the power of remission of sins; since He was man, and since He was God, in order that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us, and forgive us our debts, in which we were made debtors to God our Creator. And therefore David said beforehand, “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord has not imputed sin;” Ps. xxxii. 1, 2. pointing out thus that remission of sins which follows upon His advent, by which “He has destroyed the handwriting” of our debt, and “fastened it to the cross;” Col. ii. 14. so that as by means of a tree we were made debtors to God, [so also] by means of a tree we may obtain the remission of our debt.​

​

Philip Schaff: ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

But who has blotted out our transgressions? Paul the apostle teaches us, saying, “He is our peace who made both one;”1307 and then, “Blotting out the handwriting of sins that was against us.” That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this.​

​

Philip Schaff: ANF09. The Gospel of Peter, The Diatessaron of Tatian, The Apocalypse of Peter, the Vision of Paul, The Apocalypse of the Virgin and Sedrach, The Testament of Abraham, The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena, The Narrative of Zosimus, Th

ccel.org

If any one sin, we read, “We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of the whole world,” since He is the Saviour of all men,4971 especially of them that believe, who blotted out the written bond that was against us by His own blood, and took it out of the way, so that not even a trace, not even of our blotted-out sins, might still be found, and nailed it to His cross; who having put off from Himself the principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them by His cross.​

​

Philip Schaff: NPNF1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

​

This at least he proclaimed even before all the others, and bare record of this first, “Behold,” saith he, “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”1528 Now he called Him a lamb, as proclaiming the cross, and again in saying, “That taketh away the sin of the world,” he declared this same thing. For not otherwise than by the cross did He effect this; as Paul likewise said: “And the handwriting which was contrary to us, even it He took out of the way, nailing it to His cross.”​

Philip Schaff: NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

Ver. 13, 14, 15. “Having forgiven us all our trespasses; having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the Cross; having put off from himself the principalities and the powers, He made a show of them openly,799 triumphing over them in it.”​

​

“Having forgiven us,” he saith, “all our trespasses,” those which produced that deadness. What then? Did He allow them to remain? No, He even wiped them out; He did not scratch them out merely; so that they could not be seen. “In doctrines”800 [ordinances], he saith. What doctrines? The Faith. It is enough to believe. He hath not set works against works, but works against faith. And what next? Blotting out is an advance upon remission; again he saith, “And hath taken it out of the way.” Nor yet even so did He preserve it, but rent it even in sunder, “by nailing it to His Cross.” “Having put off from himself the principalities and the powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Nowhere has he spoken in so lofty a strain.​

​

Seest thou how great His earnestness that the bond should be done away? To wit, we all were under sin and punishment. He Himself, through suffering punishment, did away with both the sin and the punishment, and He was punished on the Cross. To the Cross then He affixed it; as having power, He tore it asunder.​

 

[Jerry N.]

Some things arent leading you to life, but to destruction and some Catholic practices are doing just that.

Thanks for the reply. What Catholic practices lead to destruction?

 

[tall73]

But if you look at the context as shown, its referring to animal sacrifices, which was the shadow of things to come

No, verses 11-15 are very much talking about the reality in Christ.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (NKJV)​

He then draws lessons from that in verse 16, with οὖν, translated "therefore".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, verses 11-15 are very much talking about the reality in Christ.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (NKJV)


He then draws lessons from that in verse 16, with οὖν, translated "therefore".

Christ took away at the Cross the enmity of separation of having to be circumcised to receive the prescription for sin. In the OT it was animal sacrifices (the shadow of things to come) going to an earthy priest at the earthy temple, it was always a placeholder for Christ. In the New Covenant it is the blood of Christ we go to for sin, through repentance and changing direction (forsaking sin Pro 28:13) and anyone can receive the prescription for sin and be part of the Promise through faith. Gal 3:26-29

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

 

[tall73]

But if you look at the context as shown, its referring to animal sacrifices

Animal sacrifices were not against us. They pointed to Jesus.

The debt of our sins was 100 percent against us.

 

[tall73]

Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

This we agree on. Jesus' Sacrifice does what the blood of bulls and goats could not.

And Hebrews 10 points that out.

Colossians 2 is not speaking of that. Because those sacrifices were not against us. They pointed to the true work of Christ.

Our sin was against us, and He forgave us all our sins, cancelling our debt.

You cannot ignore verse 13, which verse 14 is a continuation of, part the same sentence, to jump down to 16, which is an application, introduced by an adverbial conjunction.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)​

​

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This we agree on. Jesus' Sacrifice does what the blood of bulls and goats could not.

And Hebrews 10 points that out.

Colossians 2 is not speaking of that. Because those sacrifices were not against us. They pointed to the true work of Christ.

Our sin was against us, and He forgave us all our sins, cancelling our debt.

You cannot ignore verse 13, which verse 14 is a continuation of, part the same sentence, to jump down to 16, which is an application, introduced by an adverbial conjunction.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)​

​

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)​

The language is identical on Col 2:17 Heb 10:1 and what it points to. I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Animal sacrifices were not against us. They pointed to Jesus.

The debt of our sins was 100 percent against us.

Paul is pointing to the law he is referring to, which was not the Ten Commandments. The law of Moses that he wrote in the book of the law where all of the animal sacrifices were written etc, the context of the passage.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I agree, sin is held against us unless we seek the Solution, but animal sacrifices could never take away ones sins, so it was still against man.

Heb 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

 

[tall73]

Paul is pointing to the law he is referring to, which was not the Ten Commandments. The law of Moses that he wrote in the book of the law where all of the animal sacrifices were written etc, the context of the passage.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy is the second relaying of the law, where Moses reminds the next generation on the verge of going into the promised land of the Lord's requirements.

The book of the law included all of them. Hence, the anticipated king was to write a copy of it so he would know it, and do all the Lord commanded:

Deu 17:18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests.​

Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them,​

It included the ten commandments (related in Deut 5), and all the others laws. The king was obviously not to disregard the ten, or any of the others.

And the law included the covenant curses and blessings.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.​

However, while the curses were against them when they sinned, and even the commands regarding God's law were against them when they sinned, the sacrifices were not, and pointed to Jesus.

What was taken away was the sin. There was nothing left to witness against us. The record of our sin debt is gone.

I agree, sin is held against us, but animal sacrifices could never take away our sins, so it was still against man.

Sins were still against man. And that is what was taken away.

The laws that pointed to what Jesus would do were in no way against us. They prefigured what He would do in actually taking away sin.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

I stipulated that it is not possible for them to take away sins. But they were a shadow that pointed to Christ.

They were not against us. Our sin was against us. And He took it away, disarming sin, death, and the devil.