Restoring Reverence for God.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are seeing parishes with membership growth as high as 18% annually, which exceeds even the growthrate of the Pentecostal. Other traditional liturgical churches like some of the continuing Anglicans, some of the confessional Lutherans, and also the places where the Traditional Latin Mass has survived in the Roman Catholic Church the efforts of Pope Francis to suppress it with Traditiones Custodes, are also filling up.

So if some churches in America are weaker, it is no longer universally the case, and there appears to be a direct connection between reverence and vitality.

After being stagnant for about 6-8 years, our Church is experiencing a positive growth that is fare exceeding attrition due to the elderly dying off. Individuals and families are desiring catechesis. One family stated that it was seeing our serviced on YouTube. We are about the most traditional Parish in Ontario, doing a sung "High Mass" almost every Sunday, singing the Psalms, using hymns both ancient and modern that have been selected for content and reverence from Lutheran Service Book, most make the sign of the cross, and most now are shunning individual cups in favor of the common cup, and a few are again receiving the host on the tongue. The Choir is in the loft (where they should be, not on a stage) with a more than adequate pipe organ. Pastor and Elders/deacons vest for service wearing historic vestments.

The age of orthodoxy in the Lutheran Church that ground to a screeching halt following the Prussian Union has regained new momentum due to the collapse of liberal Protestantism and the efforts of the former remnant, but now more implemental confessional Churches world wide.

I would not have it any other way!!

The formal reverence imparts peace and joy to the worship because it impart an atmosphere of Holiness.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thus far I’m liking Pope Leo, but we have to wait and see what he does.

Well, he is no Benedict, but no Francis either. I and many conservative Lutherans are watching him with a guarded sense of approval thus far. But he is not our Bishop, but he is a Bishop that we could work with, as was Benedict.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is true, but do not forget - God is infinitely loving - God’s wrath is not a mood he gets into, for Scripture assures us of the principle of Divine Immutability - God, being eternal, does not change and is not mercurial. This is said even of Jesus Christ, our Lord God and Savior, who is like His Father and the Holy Spirit in all respects except relationally and in terms of his having become incarnate as a man, where we are assured that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

What this means, according to the early church Fathers, but really only the Eastern churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East) teach this in a consistent way, is that the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of God’s love by someone who is opposed to God and hates God and refuses His uncreated grace. That is why the Orthodox Church focuses on preaching the Gospel in a way that promotes repentance and alignment with God, so that we are not burned by the fire of God’s love but rather like the Burning Bush are undamaged by proximity to His presence.

Indeed the Fathers insist that since He is infinitely merciful, the Outer Darkness is a final mercy for those who refuse Him - since being in the luminous presence of God in the New Jerusalem would be an unbearable torment to these people. St. John Chrysostom pointed out that the worst possible punishment would be the realization of what one had excluded oneself from (the bliss of the life of the world to come) through sin.

That is why the church must stress the need for people to repent in this life, lest they are, for their own good, eternally excluded from the life of the world to come and instead wallow in suffering in undying darkness, eaten by the undying worms of the memory of their own sin, consumed by malice and regret and resentment and hatred for God. Because the reality of Hell is far more terrible than the caricature of demons with pitchforks (indeed so too is the reality of demons, who are around us constantly; pneumatic beings, ruled by the Prince of Power of the Air, actively plotting new ways of bringing about our downfall every second of the day.

God have mercy, in the name of Thine only begotten Son Jesus Christ, send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us, and under his direction, conduct all of Thy heavenly host in defense of us against the Evil One, and forgive us our own sins, which are equally repulsive to Thee, but grant us instead through Thy infinite grace a spirit of repentance, love, chastity, obedience, mercy, reverence and charity.

Yes, He is infinitely loving, and the fear of Him is a friend that seals our salvation. Jer 32:40.

 

[RandyPNW]

This is a problem. A lukewarm liturgy is a disaster, and this, as much as the liberalism, is what is killing the mainline churches. The mainline churches that are either less liberal than others in their denomination, or which have better liturgies, like St. Thomas Fifth Ave, or in a few cases, both (St. John’s Episcopal Church in Detroit, which I thought was Continuing Anglican and was shocked to discover it was Episcopalian), get better attendance. Those Catholic churches which either use the Traditional Latin Mass (which comes with a handy book called the Missal which translates everything) or the Novus Ordo Mass celebrated in a traditional way - ad orientem rather than versus populum, with Gregorian chant and traditional polyphonic music instead of modern music, and traditional vestments and incense, the “bells and smells”, pack a full house on Sundays, especially since Traditiones Custodes. Likewise with the more traditional Anglican and Lutheran churches.

To be honest, I can't see why there is this reflexive reference back to old traditions. It sounds very much like the problem with Rabbinic Judaism, which was so transfixed on the old Law that they could not see past it to Jesus' New Covenant--his sacrifice, his priesthood, and his being the ultimate Temple of God?

Old styles of music may have emerged with the limited technology of the time, or with different social circumstances. The modern world should have its own forms of worship, assuming it is real and reverential.

Of course, you may rightly assume there should be much Scripture in the worship. But there has been--certainly from my own experience. I sang more Scriptural songs with my Charismatic/Pentecostal friends than I had in all the years I was raised singing from Lutheran hymnals! We're to sing with "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs." There is a great potential variety in this!

We sang from the Psalter. We sang songs that others concocted from the Psalms or even from the Prophets. I had a 2 album set of praise/worship songs done by a couple from Australia with every song derived from the Scriptures. I don't think making the cover of this album ancient Christian art will improve on the spirituality one bit!

It's funny that you think my circles are less spiritual because they lack the old religious formalism and style of music, while I think of your religious tradition as outdated and spiritually lacking precisely because of the adherence to rigid formalism and legal structure. I wonder where the truth lies?

Mind you, I'm not passing any judgment on you personally. You seem like a nice enough fellow, and pretty aware of all these movements. My experience is more limited than yours, and yet can my spiritual discernment be so wrong? Perhaps...

 

[RandyPNW]

Well, he is no Benedict, but no Francis either. I and many conservative Lutherans are watching him with a guarded sense of approval thus far. But he is not our Bishop, but he is a Bishop that we could work with, as was Benedict.

What he has done is apparently takes side with the Gazan Palestinians against Israel. I don't care for that at all--seems too self-serving for Catholic self-interest in protecting their Middle Eastern peoples.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, he is no Benedict, but no Francis either. I and many conservative Lutherans are watching him with a guarded sense of approval thus far. But he is not our Bishop, but he is a Bishop that we could work with, as was Benedict.

Indeed, I am praying that is the case.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't care for that at all--seems too self-serving for Catholic self-interest in protecting their Middle Eastern peoples.

How is it self serving for Christian churches to advocate for their members, who were innocent of the Islamist terror attacks?

 

[The Liturgist]

To be honest, I can't see why there is this reflexive reference back to old traditions.

1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:17

Also the Orthodox Church is growing 18% annually, and other traditional churches report similar growth.

Old styles of music may have emerged with the limited technology of the time, or with different social circumstances. The modern world should have its own forms of worship

Why? The Bible hasn’t changed, most of our music consists of Scripture such as the Psalms, and God also hasn’t changed, neither has the Gospel. The sins of today are exactly the same sins people were committing 2,000 years ago. Indeed our society has only recently caught up with the technology of the later Roman and Byzantine Empire before the spread of Islam and the Dark Ages and Turkocratia (and some Byzantine technologies like Greek Fire we can only approximate).

 

[The Liturgist]

Unfortunately?

Well it would have been preferable had they repented.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How are we tracking friends - can we somehow tie our submissions to the opening topic ?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What he has done is apparently takes side with the Gazan Palestinians against Israel. I don't care for that at all--seems too self-serving for Catholic self-interest in protecting their Middle Eastern peoples.

I hope you were not expecting a Zionist Pope.

You are confusing "taking sides" with being compassionate for those who suffer. When one looks at Palestine, it does not take long realize that there are not just Muslims in Palestine, but Christians and Jews are all suffering together. Israel has ordered the Christians to leave their homes and their Churches; most have refused.

You won't find any Zionists among steadfastly confessional Lutherans either.