I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You said a couple of things worth discussing

You say we are captive and not collaborators, that is true as scripture says anyone that sins is a slave to sin.

Everyone still sins. None are sinless.

Romans 6 gets interesting some translations say when you were slaves to sin you were free from obligation to do good. That sounds like we would not be punished

Sins are not counted against people. Sins are and will remain counted against devils. Those who try to work their way through these subjects without the devil and his messengers on the table have voided views, actually blinded by those same.

No one can come to grips with this until they see and admit to the internal presence of the tempter. If they don't the door of understanding remains firmly locked.

, but it rather reflected our inability to be obligated to righteousness because of our slavery to sin.

It's never a one or the other arrangement

All people do both good and evil regardless of their claims to only good. And we do so courtesy of the enemies unseen

Jesus sets us free from this bondage if we wish it, or rather use our free will to choose Him.

Never happened ^
Free will is off the table as soon as we see evil is baked in to the equations and none avoid that conclusion. Romans 7:21 is an honest conclusion as is 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 all applied personally

When we give ourselves freely to Christ, we become slaves of righteousness. Our old man passes away and all things become new.

If these we questions or claims only of the person you'd have a point but that's never been the case

The devil or the adversaries are crafty, so they mix truth with lies in order to deceive.

No kidding

They say hey you can’t be saved by works(truth ), so don’t do them. If works cannot save you then it does not matter if you sin or do right, just believe and you will be fine. (Lie)

No one stops sinning and becomes sinless

This deception fools souls into thinking that they are “saved” while they remain slaves to sin. Scripture says God has prepared for us good works that we should walk in them

We lack ability to do good of our own, but God grants us free will to choose whom we will serve.

There us no choice available to eliminate the presence of evil i.e. the evil conscience, Heb 10:22, and this is courtesy of the tempter and his own, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2

What we should walk away with is at least honesty and dropping hypocrisy, thinking we're the better of our neighbors because we're not. We just see our condition and divide from it, knowing it's no longer I. Romans 7:17-20

When we are born again we are set free from our obligation to sin and our conscience becomes slave to righteousness.

Uh no. We achieve dominion over sin but that never means eradication

It does not matter the magnitude of our work, the smallest thing done gives glory to God, for He says if we are faithful in little, we will been given greater things to do, remember the woman with two pennies.

Whatever we do we do so with the presence of evil and sin. The classic light shining from darkness in allegorical terms

As we walk in good works, we learn from them, and learn of God. The basics are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. We do not do these things to boast, but to undergo training in righteousness

Our conscience is exercised by good and evil, never just one or the other

You will find, that the more you learn in good works, the more service you do, and the more joy you get from service. We do not seek honor, for what good is honor is those around us perish and their death causes grief in Our Lord?

Jesus said if we do all we are commanded to STILL term ourselves "unprofitable servants" Look it up. We are not even considered disciples unless we hate our own life Luke 14:26

With evil in the picture it's an easy place to get to

God gives us joy in service, or we can listen to Satan who says works can’t save you don’t do them, and persecute everyone that tries to encourage you to do them

Excusing Satan from these pictures is just a common evil work of same

Be not deceived. Jesus calls us to work, but His yoke is easy and His burden light

Doesn't apply to the adversary. No dodging, no joke

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

i think where you are going astray in your thinking is because you do not know the difference or rather the different roles between our soul and our spirit and that in truth they be not separate, but for the sake of being raised up to see as He sees we appear so in the hear and now ...

Both you and your buddy simply refuse to bring Satan and his messengers and the fact of their evil in all of us into the picture

It's typical of Satanic working

Nothing personal mind you

 

[honey badger]

Both you and your buddy simply refuse to bring Satan and his messengers and the fact of their evil in all of us into the picture

It's typical of Satanic working

Nothing personal mind you

not so ... we just view him through the lens of the scriptures ... you see when you hold to a truth this truth you hold to becomes an idol much like when you say Jesus is the son of God in view that only he is the only son and by default not yourself ... in this thinking Jesus is now an idol to you as in its true he is the son of God but then so are we ... you see if you don't see yourself as the son of God and by being his son equal to him then this mind in you is anti-Christ\Truth ...

also you condemn people who don't hold to your perception not knowing that for example both Aseyesee and myself believe that we all like a lamb innocent of the sacrifice and therefor the one which is lost never was ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

not so ... we just view him through the lens of the scriptures ... you see when you hold to a truth this truth you hold to becomes an idol

You are what you think?

What happens when you think honestly?

In any case people do not control the mind of the tempter. It is what it is, not you.

much like when you say Jesus is the son of God in view that only he is the only son and by default not yourself ... in this thinking Jesus is now an idol to you

The Spirit of Christ lives in us

Doesn't mean it eradicates evil present

as in its true he is the son of God but then so are we ... you see if you don't see yourself as the son of God and by being his son equal to him then this mind in you is anti-Christ\Truth ...l

You're doing no more than thought conjuring an idol as well at the expense of excusing and covering up for the tempter

IF there weren't parties in people other than the people you'd have a case. But that's never been the case

also you condemn people

You still can't even manage to get TWO parties on the table

People and devils

who don't hold to your perception not knowing that for example both Aseyesee and myself believe that we all like a lamb innocent of the sacrifice and therefor the one which is lost never was ...

Yeah whatever. Such sights are one sided and void, just like all who deny they have sin and their sin is of the devil

Everyone has their infection. You're exemption claims are just another voice of hypocrisy claiming you're better just because you think so

Show discipleship by hatred of your own life

Show discipleship by calling yourself an unprofitable servants

These are just the first step through the door and half of you both will never get thru

 

[timothyu]

You'd have to be blind not to hear them and see their works. Or perceive them in your own thoughts

But then how otherwise could we avoid responsibility for our actions?

 

[honey badger]

You still can't even manage to get TWO parties on the table

i have you just cant see them because you are blinded by what comes out from them, as in your blinded by your own reasoning ...

you see people and the devil ... i see two seeds in a garden or two fruits on a tree or two sons or two perceptions of Adam who's name mean red and like a beast which tills the field as in labors\reasons\eats dust all the days of his life falling one weak short ...

you have yet to agree with your enemy and why it is you still have one ...

 

[timothyu]

You're very fond of counting sins against people and ignoring the cause

As I said, the cause is 'self' which produces all its spawn such as self-interest, self-determination, self-servitude, self-justification etc.. Selfishness. Something learned in the Garden when man became aware of self. Something God continually tells us to repent of and instead look to others.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

But then how otherwise could we avoid responsibility for our actions?

When we are judged both good and bad is found, unavoidable, honestly speaking.

Every thought will be judged. Every word. Every deed.

The bad goes away, permanently. Burned up "like" wood, hay, stubble

Do you think wheat is produced with no disposable byproduct?

 

[timothyu]

When we are judged both good and bad is found, unavoidable, honestly speaking.

Every thought will be judged. Every word. Every deed.

The bad goes away, permanently. Burned up "like" wood, hay, stubble

Do you think wheat is produced with no disposable byproduct?

Yet it came with stipulations. Repent of the ways of man and live accordingly.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yet it came with stipulations. Repent of the ways of man and live accordingly.

Repenting does the devils no good

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Everyone still sins. None are sinless.

Sins are not counted against people. Sins are and will remain counted against devils. Those who try to work their way through these subjects without the devil and his messengers on the table have voided views, actually blinded by those same.

No one can come to grips with this until they see and admit to the internal presence of the tempter. If they don't the door of understanding remains firmly locked.

It's never a one or the other arrangement

All people do both good and evil regardless of their claims to only good. And we do so courtesy of the enemies unseen

Never happened ^
Free will is off the table as soon as we see evil is baked in to the equations and none avoid that conclusion. Romans 7:21 is an honest conclusion as is 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 all applied personally

If these we questions or claims only of the person you'd have a point but that's never been the case

No kidding

No one stops sinning and becomes sinless



There us no choice available to eliminate the presence of evil i.e. the evil conscience, Heb 10:22, and this is courtesy of the tempter and his own, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2

What we should walk away with is at least honesty and dropping hypocrisy, thinking we're the better of our neighbors because we're not. We just see our condition and divide from it, knowing it's no longer I. Romans 7:17-20

Uh no. We achieve dominion over sin but that never means eradication

Whatever we do we do so with the presence of evil and sin. The classic light shining from darkness in allegorical terms

Our conscience is exercised by good and evil, never just one or the other

Jesus said if we do all we are commanded to STILL term ourselves "unprofitable servants" Look it up. We are not even considered disciples unless we hate our own life Luke 14:26

With evil in the picture it's an easy place to get to

Excusing Satan from these pictures is just a common evil work of same

Doesn't apply to the adversary. No dodging, no joke

Your premise is one of defeatism masking as virtue. Although it is true we cannot expect to be completely sin free, there are varying degrees of sin. Those that deny this often use it as an excuse to keep sinning.
They will say that the habit of sin is too hard to break, so they won’t even try. Scripture says no adulterers will enter the kingdom of heaven and those that look on a woman with lust commits adultery. They say that is too hard. I can’t help but watch porn and touch, but I still go to church and say I love Jesus. Wrong
They have bought into the lie and are not following the truth. God gave us sexual intercourse for a purpose and that purpose is children, not pleasure only. They may have understood it if they kept the book of Tobit, but they ripped it out of their Bibles and ignored the teaching. Adultery is mortal sin and can be overcome by transforming your mind
It is false teaching to tell an adulterer don’t worry, Jesus understands, rather tell him he is in mortal sin and needs to begin the process of eradicating that sin from his life if he has any hope of heaven
God has given us many means of grace for us to take advantage and cry for help. Two of them are His own flesh and blood in the Eucharist and another is confession. When we offer our body as a living sacrifice, we are cleansed of sin today not some fantasy date in the future. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Your premise is one of defeatism masking as virtue.

Or it's simply true.

Doesn't mean love doesn't exist within that darkness, which is the only thing that counts anyway

Although it is true we cannot expect to be completely sin free,

Well, there ya go. Almost on the same page already

there are varying degrees of sin.

Nah. It's all demonic

Those that deny this often use it as an excuse to keep sinning.

Well, the issue is, nobody ever stopped sinning and became sinless so your own argument is that we are never sinless is far more accurate and the above statement is patently false.

The acts of sin (external) may stop and/or change but sin still continues to transpire in thought/word/deed.

For example, Jesus says: Love your neighbors

And the sin reaction in believers is to promote God as burning them alive forever instead

See how vicious sin can get? Even without any over "act" the word and deed is about as evil to neighbors as possible.

They will say that the habit of sin is too hard to break, so they won’t even try.

Sin is "of the devil." People don't decide to make the devil any less the sinner. 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Scripture says no adulterers will enter the kingdom of heaven and those that look on a woman with lust commits adultery.

Welcome to finally getting around to sin in thought form which defiles all of us, Mark 7:21-23

They say that is too hard. I can’t help but watch porn and touch, but I still go to church and say I love Jesus. Wrong

You can pollyanna how good you are all day long, but the fact is none of us are the better sinner and if we know that sin is actually of the tempter, the devil, we would see our own sins are worse because of that bad actor. 1 Tim. 1:15, Romans 3:9

They have bought into the lie and are not following the truth.

No amount of truth following makes anyone sinless. Thinking such things does make for ripe hypocrisy though, the very thing that Jesus really hated

God gave us sexual intercourse for a purpose and that purpose is children, not pleasure only. They may have understood it if they kept the book of Tobit, but they ripped it out of their Bibles and ignored the teaching. Adultery is mortal sin and can be overcome by transforming your mind

Uh, no, it can't. Sin reacts all on its own against the laws, whatever they are. Paul spells this out very clearly in Romans 7 describing sin that he still dealt with as "no longer I." It simply does what it does. In Paul's mind every manner of concupiscence came into this mind. A direct fact from Jesus in Mark 7:21-23.

Yes it happens. No, no one can stop it. Hence salvation by Grace and Mercy in Christ. No one earns it by being less of a sinner because that never happened. In most cases sin gets worse, as noted above, and makes supposed believers into lying hypocrites, which is a severe infection in the churches. Self righteous nonsense.

It is false teaching to tell an adulterer don’t worry, Jesus understands, rather tell him he is in mortal sin and needs to begin the process of eradicating that sin from his life if he has any hope of heaven

Sin acts relay the point openly. But so does just about everything else mankind is involved in.

Yes, overt acts shows slaveship to the devil. So who is worse. An adulterer or people who promote burning their unsaved neighbors alive forever? To me, the latter is the last straw of sin, but it's all sin regardless.

God has given us many means of grace for us to take advantage and cry for help. Two of them are His own flesh and blood in the Eucharist and another is confession. When we offer our body as a living sacrifice, we are cleansed of sin today not some fantasy date in the future. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation

There's a far simpler explanation than your bold.

Sins are not counted against people, just as Paul noted in 2 Cor. 5:19

And sins are counted against devils in people, regardless of what the people do.

Don't you know that almost every last Israelite of the first generation out died in the desert because of unbelief?

WHO causes unbelief? Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

There is a god of this world and the blindness and sin imposed on all mankind is very real.

Christians are NOT exempt. Clueless, yes

 

[timothyu]

, there are varying degrees of sin.


Degrees don’t matter. Sin is putting our will ahead of God so all sin is self-interest regardless of form

 

[boughtwithaprice]

There is a god of this world and the blindness and sin imposed on all mankind is very real.

Christians are NOT exempt. Clueless, yes

You don’t seem to understand spiritual battle.
Scripture says resist the devil and he will flee from you

Hebrews says if we sin willfully after we have come to the knowledge of the truth there is only expectation of judgment, not oh just wait till you get to heaven because you can’t stop sinning here

26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

Call it Pollyanna if you will, say sin gets worse and worse even the Christian can’t help it and if he disagrees he is a hypocrite, if you will, but that is not right is scripture, and we can stop sinning and begin to walk in obedience because Christi has set us free

Scripture says that there is a sin unto death and we should not even bother to pray about that. Sins that are not unto death, aka venial are fought with prayer and encouragement, not accusations of Pollyanna hypocrisy if one strives to live free of sin.

The Christian has no excuse to retain sinful habits. It does not mean we will not be tempted, but temptation is not sin, failure to resist and giving into the devil is. Scripture says that no one is tempted above that which he is able to bear, we are always given a means of escape

To deny that is to deny God

 

[boughtwithaprice]

, there are varying degrees of sin.


Degrees don’t matter. Sin is putting our will ahead of God so all sin is self-interest regardless of form

That is just an excuse to ignore weightier matters of the law.
John’s epistle tells us that there is sin unto death which we call mortal sins, willful commission of which is without excuse. See Hebrews 10

To say degrees don’t matter is to imply nothing matters. What then is a the need to repent? Are we saved with lip service?

 

[timothyu]

F

Scripture says that no one is tempted above that which he is able to bear, we are always given a means of escape

of course. It is simply a matter of choice over our will of selfishness

 

[timothyu]

To say degrees don’t matter is to imply nothing matters. What then is a the need to repent? Are we saved with lip service?

Our will or God’s. It doesn’t get simpler than that. That’s all it took for the fall of mankind

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You don’t seem to understand spiritual battle.

It transpires within with a very real unseen enemy

It's not just you hitting the keys to post or reading a scripture in particular, Mark 4:15

Scripture says resist the devil and he will flee from you

Still didn't make anyone sinless.

Fleeing is akin to dividing from you. You as a person are not the devil.

What that does not mean is that the tempter stops working in your own mind. No different in thinking just because you don't act out the sin means your sinless. Neither are the case

Hebrews says if we sin willfully after we have come to the knowledge of the truth there is only expectation of judgment, not oh just wait till you get to heaven because you can’t stop sinning here

When we realize we're not the sinner in the equations it goes a long long way to understandings

Call it Pollyanna if you will, say sin gets worse and worse even the Christian can’t help it and if he disagrees he is a hypocrite, if you will, but that is not right is scripture, and we can stop sinning and begin to walk in obedience because Christi has set us free

What Christ did for people He did not do for the tempter and his own

Recognize the difference. Your views don't even bring the other parties into these pictures and you seek to blanket the entirety of yourself with self justifications. It will never work.

Scripture says that there is a sin unto death and we should not even bother to pray about that. Sins that are not unto death, aka venial are fought with prayer and encouragement, not accusations of Pollyanna hypocrisy if one strives to live free of sin.

Sin is sin. Some result in instant death, some later, but the body dies because of sin, Romans 8:10

The Christian has no excuse to retain sinful habits.

Again, you yourself claim you are not sinless.

Maybe you want to revise your stance to sinless sometimes, and sometimes not? Feel free to clarify

It does not mean we will not be tempted, but temptation is not sin,

And that is also a lie. Evil lawless thoughts do defile us and evil assuredly comes from "within" exactly as Jesus said, Mark 7:21-23 and the tempter assuredly brings evil lawless thoughts and theft of Word to everyone.

No one should be justifying the EVIL that comes from within them, EVER and it is there, period

failure to resist and giving into the devil is.

Well, you see, your logic is staring you right in the face and you utterly fail to grasp the fact that "you" are not the only party in these equations.

Scripture says that no one is tempted above that which he is able to bear, we are always given a means of escape

To deny that is to deny God

The tempter does what the tempter does. No one makes themselves sinless because of the works of the tempter in their own flesh.

Cited these prior, but for refreshers: Mark 4:15, Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 3:8

I'd expect any self respecting Christian to know all the above by heart

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It transpires within with a very real unseen enemy

It's not just you hitting the keys to post or reading a scripture in particular, Mark 4:15

Still didn't make anyone sinless.

Fleeing is akin to dividing from you. You as a person are not the devil.

What that does not mean is that the tempter stops working in your own mind. No different in thinking just because you don't act out the sin means your sinless. Neither are the case

When we realize we're not the sinner in the equations it goes a long long way to understandings

What Christ did for people He did not do for the tempter and his own

Recognize the difference. Your views don't even bring the other parties into these pictures and you seek to blanket the entirety of yourself with self justifications. It will never work.

Sin is sin. Some result in instant death, some later, but the body dies because of sin, Romans 8:10

Again, you yourself claim you are not sinless.

Maybe you want to revise your stance to sinless sometimes, and sometimes not? Feel free to clarify

And that is also a lie. Evil lawless thoughts do defile us and evil assuredly comes from "within" exactly as Jesus said, Mark 7:21-23 and the tempter assuredly brings evil lawless thoughts and theft of Word to everyone.

No one should be justifying the EVIL that comes from within them, EVER and it is there, period

Well, you see, your logic is staring you right in the face and you utterly fail to grasp the fact that "you" are not the only party in these equations.

The tempter does what the tempter does. No one makes themselves sinless because of the works of the tempter in their own flesh.

Cited these prior, but for refreshers: Mark 4:15, Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 3:8

I'd expect any self respecting Christian to know all the above by heart

Friend, you are all in circles and held captive by false conclusions. Scripture says that Christ was tempted in all manner such as we, but without sin. Temptation is not sin.
Paul tells us to not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. How do we do this?
If you have proper catechism it’s easy. The example is adultery. The world says sex is for pleasure and we have a need to indulge. A Christian knows that adultery is sin, yet he will be overwhelmed if he gives into the world’s reasoning.
Scripture says sex is for procreation and sterile fornication is a sin against our own body from which we should fly.
To combat the sin of lust, we have the ability to reason, am I thinking of having a child in doing this? Will this action be fruitful and achieve God’s will? If the answer is is no, then the thoughts of sexual activity should be dismissed. They achieve no good and are a sin against the body.
You say that is too hard to do? Have you ever tried to imagine a crying child each time you are tempted by lust? Do you even value chastity or try to live by the world’s standards that sex is a need and one is no good unless having sex?
When you see the path of life God sets before you and the path of death the world offers, you understand that contraception is a mortal sin

Transform your mind and don’t give into the world, and you will see how easily you can be set free. Evil thoughts will come, but with a transformed mind, you would now have the power to dismiss them


The alternative is to not work on your mind, accept the world’s lies and try to claim you are a Christian. That is a most wretched state

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Friend, you are all in circles and held captive by false conclusions.

No more confusing than your claims of not being sinless but your sin being better than the other guy's sin.

Temptation is not sin.

"Jesus said" evil comes from within via evil thoughts and defiles everyone. How many times does it have to be cited for your position to acknowledge it? You've probably been excusing it for so long you simply gloss over the facts. Mark 4:15, Mark 7:21-23 (and Matt. similar) among others such as all have, present tense have sin, and of course sin is of the devil, the TEMPTER, the wicked one. The essential personification of evil that works within mankind that Jesus showed us literally thousands of times in the Gospels.

Paul tells us to not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. How do we do this?

First of all the world has no clue "all" the people in it are captured by the god of this world. Even Paul admitted to the presence of evil with him and that he did evil, after salvation. Even being the present tense "I am" chief of sinners. So why not start with being HONEST about these these things. Don't you realize the tempter works within? Don't you realize evil actually does come from within.

IF you claim exemption from that reality then you are actually none of His but just another bad actor.

If you have proper catechism it’s easy. The example is adultery. The world says sex is for pleasure and we have a need to indulge. A Christian knows that adultery is sin, yet he will be overwhelmed if he gives into the world’s reasoning.

And you merely mistake the act only for adultery. Any good Roman catholic (been there) knows that sin operates in "thought, word and deed." Deed only being the culmination of what was already within. The greater point in this conversation however remains, that sin is of the devil. IF we don't have a fulcrum to look to other than the person or ourselves then we are evil, perhaps even devils, and Jesus didn't come to save/convert devils.

The devil is deemed a necessary evil, done for a greater God that only God can derive. Not by you and your positions claim to adequate performances, which can't even start with simple honesty and perceptions beyond the external acts of sin which anyone, even an unbeliever can see and understand.

To combat the sin of lust, we have the ability to reason, am I thinking of having a child in doing this? Will this action be fruitful and achieve God’s will? If the answer is is no, then the thoughts of sexual activity should be dismissed. They achieve no good and are a sin against the body.
You say that is too hard to do? Have you ever tried to imagine a crying child each time you are tempted by lust? Do you even value chastity or try to live by the world’s standards that sex is a need and one is no good unless having sex?

I think you entire scheme on these subjects will never get to the heart of the issue at hand and seeks to excuse and hide the inner parts, with only a oh shucks, yeah, it happens but I'm still good. Bleech on all of that nonsense.

Here's what the real Bible tells us about our hearts: Jer. 17:9

The heart is deceptive above "all things' and desperately wicked.

I'd even say the heart is never so deceptive and wicked as when trying to claim it's not.

Transform your mind and don’t give into the world, and you will see how easily you can be set free. Evil thoughts will come, but with a transformed mind, you would now have the power to dismiss them


The alternative is to not work on your mind,

I'm not interested in transformation via lying hypocrisy, but thanks for the typical phony offer

The evil in no one will be getting off the hook, in Jesus' Name