No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Jerry N.]

You can press the "like" again to remove "like".

Thanks.

 

[A New Dawn]

My “like” was a mistake. I clicked the wrong post. There are many examples of unbelievers repenting for a sin without being saved. One only has to look at how many times Israel turned to God only to turn away from Him later. The Torah alone can convince one of sin, but it doesn’t mean that it leads to salvation every time. I guess one could argue that it is still God’s work since He is the source of the Torah, but there is still an element of free will.

You proved my point. If someone turns to God for fear of retribution and then falls away later, that is not turning to God. God changes the heart and because of that, there would be no falling away later because love takes the place of fear. The Law was given to show that the law doesn’t save, but that is what the Israelites wanted. Just like the Israelites wanted a king instead of judges, so God gave them kings and we see how that worked out. We do not know what is best for us and yet reject what God has for us unless HE steps in and changes our heart.

 

[A New Dawn]

You do realize you’re treating Ignatius words inconsistently, interpreting them in an absolute sense when applied to the carnal, but not when applied to the spiritual?

If Ignatius meant absolute inability, then believers could never act carnally either, you get it both ways.

Is it then not more likely Ignatius isn't talking about total inability?

How do you come up with that? Did Ignatius say that? He didn’t believe in the unwilling of the Holy Spirit? Was he perfect after his conversion?

Are you perfect without need to repent, assuming you have been regenerated?

 

[Jerry N.]

You proved my point. If someone turns to God for fear of retribution and then falls away later, that is not turning to God. God changes the heart and because of that, there would be no falling away later because love takes the place of fear. The Law was given to show that the law doesn’t save, but that is what the Israelites wanted. Just like the Israelites wanted a king instead of judges, so God gave them kings and we see how that worked out. We do not know what is best for us and yet reject what God has for us unless HE steps in and changes our heart.

1 Kings 18:21” Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing. “1Kings 18:39 “When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”” The people feared God because of what they saw. Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” My point is that man has free will to fear God, even if it doesn’t lead to salvation, but we don’t know if everybody turned away after they learned to fear God. It might have been the first step to faith. God reveals Himself in all of creation and has given most people a conscience. This can lead to learning more about God and making a free will choice to seek His will. The Holy Spirit does the rest. If they are spiritually dead and unable to seek knowledge of God, this would not happen. Even fire from heaven would not make them seek knowledge of God. Fear of God’s retribution has led many down the path to salvation. Then you have the verse that has been listed before: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” (Revelation 3:20). God might allow us to hear His voice, but we must open the door to our heart. God isn’t breaking down the door to save us like a fireman. He asks to be let in with a knock. Even Calvin knew this.

 

[A New Dawn]

1 Kings 18:21” Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing. “1Kings 18:39 “When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”” The people feared God because of what they saw. Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” My point is that man has free will to fear God, even if it doesn’t lead to salvation, but we don’t know if everybody turned away after they learned to fear God. It might have been the first step to faith. God reveals Himself in all of creation and has given most people a conscience. This can lead to learning more about God and making a free will choice to seek His will. The Holy Spirit does the rest. If they are spiritually dead and unable to seek knowledge of God, this would not happen. Even fire from heaven would not make them seek knowledge of God. Fear of God’s retribution has led many down the path to salvation. Then you have the verse that has been listed before: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” (Revelation 3:20). God might allow us to hear His voice, but we must open the door to our heart. God isn’t breaking down the door to save us like a fireman. He asks to be let in with a knock. Even Calvin knew this.

Fear has multiple meanings. In the verse you quoted, fear is defined as reverence and piety. Surely you know this. The definition I was using is terror. Being afraid of retribution. The OT God is wrathful. And from my previous post, it is obvious what I meant.

 

[zoidar]

How do you come up with that? Did Ignatius say that? He didn’t believe in the unwilling of the Holy Spirit? Was he perfect after his conversion?

Are you perfect without need to repent, assuming you have been regenerated?

Of course not! So we agree Ignatius isn’t saying the carnal can’t do anything spiritual? It’s a parallell statement, setting carnal and spiritual in contrast.

Ignatius of Antioch
“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

 

[Jerry N.]

Fear has multiple meanings. In the verse you quoted, fear is defined as reverence and piety. Surely you know this. The definition I was using is terror. Being afraid of retribution. The OT God is wrathful. And from my previous post, it is obvious what I meant.

I don't know about you, but the possibility of going to hell is terrifying. It is God's wrath on sinners. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards seemed to work well.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't know about you, but the possibility of going to hell is terrifying. It is God's wrath on sinners. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards seemed to work well.

Yes, it has the short-term effect of scaring people into doing something, but it doesn’t change their hearts, which gives lasting change, as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit and the ability to choose out of their redeemed nature.

 

[A New Dawn]

Of course not! So we agree Ignatius isn’t saying the carnal can’t do anything spiritual? It’s a parallell statement, setting carnal and spiritual in contrast.

Ignatius of Antioch
“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

No, we don’t agree at all.

Man has a fallen nature prior to being regenerated by God and can only choose from that fallen position. A redeemed person has a redeemed nature as well as a new heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit to help him choose what is pleasing to God. But sin is still all around us and still has power over us, so we will still sin. What is hard to understand about that?

ETA: I believe it is that last part of that quote where we are not seeing eye to eye, and that, because of the language translation(?) we might be interpreting it differently. I read it to say that those who don’t believe can’t believe because they don’t have faith, and those who believe can’t unbelieve because they do have faith.

 

[Jerry N.]

Yes, it has the short-term effect of scaring people into doing something, but it doesn’t change their hearts, which gives lasting change, as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit and the ability to choose out of their redeemed nature.

I’m really sorry to read that those who were frightened by the prospect of hell had no personal choice to seek God’s grace and forgiveness. Your God seems to be a bit different from my God who respects the freewill of mankind. I think I’m done here.

 

[A New Dawn]

I’m really sorry to read that those who were frightened by the prospect of hell had no personal choice to seek God’s grace and forgiveness. Your God seems to be a bit different from my God who respects the freewill of mankind. I think I’m done here.

Those who had to be scared into being afraid of it likely had no real interest in wanting to escape it, the same way unbelievers aren’t interested in seeking Christ. They have a hardened heart. Only those who’ve already had their hearts softened by God, in both the OT and the NT, are able to seek forgiveness, because repentance is one of the gifts we receive when our hearts have been regenerated. Your God does not exist in the scriptures. The Bible is clear what God’s attributes are, as well as what His will is, and what Christ’s purpose for coming was.

 

[Jerry N.]

Those who had to be scared into being afraid of it likely had no real interest in wanting to escape it, the same way unbelievers aren’t interested in seeking Christ. They have a hardened heart. Only those who’ve already had their hearts softened by God, in both the OT and the NT, are able to seek forgiveness, because repentance is one of the gifts we receive when our hearts have been regenerated. Your God does not exist in the scriptures. The Bible is clear what God’s attributes are, as well as what His will is, and what Christ’s purpose for coming was.

My God wants me to love Him of my own free will, and I don't see that contradicted in the Bible. Matthew 12:30-31 30 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

[zoidar]

No, we don’t agree at all.

Man has a fallen nature prior to being regenerated by God and can only choose from that fallen position. A redeemed person has a redeemed nature as well as a new heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit to help him choose what is pleasing to God. But sin is still all around us and still has power over us, so we will still sin. What is hard to understand about that?

Not hard at all to understand, it's not your theology I'm questioning, but your understanding of Ignatius.

ETA: I believe it is that last part of that quote where we are not seeing eye to eye, and that, because of the language translation(?) we might be interpreting it differently. I read it to say that those who don’t believe can’t believe because they don’t have faith, and those who believe can’t unbelieve because they do have faith.

I don't have the text in Greek. I'll go with what I have.

It says "things of faith" and "things of unbelief". "Things" sounds to refer to acts that flows from either faith or unbelief not "faith" or "unbelief" itself.

 

[A New Dawn]

My God wants me to love Him of my own free will, and I don't see that contradicted in the Bible. Matthew 12:30-31 30 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

That does not speak to unbelievers, that speaks to those who are followers of Christ. How do you know how much God has loved you so you can love others if you haven’t already been the recipient of God’s love?

I used to believe the same thing because I went to a free will church. Then I sat down and read the Bible and was surprised that it didn’t mention free will anywhere but did repeatedly say that it is God who is in charge of ALL areas of salvation. From Him choosing us, to Him drawing us to Himself, to Him giving us saving faith, to Him preserving us to the end.

Hebrews 12:1-2 (NASB95) 1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[A New Dawn]

Not hard at all to understand, it's not your theology I'm questioning, but your understanding of Ignatius.


I don't have the text in Greek. I'll go with what I have.

It says "things of faith" and "things of unbelief". "Things" sounds to refer to acts that flows from either faith or unbelief not "faith" or "unbelief" itself.

It just doesn’t work for me to put action words in there and come up with something that makes sense. I’m still getting “Faith is not a thing of unbelief and unbelief is not a thing of faith.”

 

[Brightfame52]

It is God’s Power, and not a man’s free will by which he is made willing to come to God: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of THY power..." (Psa. 110:3). One of the most forceful Scriptures that clearly demonstrates how a man comes to God says: "Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST, and CAUSEST to approach unto Thee..." (Psa. 65:4 cf. Psa. 33:12 cf. Jn. 6:44,65). Not only is God the chooser, but He is also the cause behind a man’s approaching Him. That is grace. It is not a case of God choosing, and then the man responding with a decision to approach God, but it is all of God, it is God Who chooses and it is GOD WHO IS THE CAUSE BEHIND A MAN APPROACHING HIM! Such is the inability of man—such is the Sovereign grace of God. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13 cf. Eph. 2:10).https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-12

 

[A New Dawn]

You shouldn't stop there...how about reading until:
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

So if the only thing that matters is God's will, then are all saved? If not, why not?

Are you defining mercy as salvation? That is an incorrect interpretation. Mercy means not getting what you deserve. Grace means getting what you do not deserve. They are opposite in meaning, which is why those who are saved receive grace AND mercy. Someone receiving just mercy is not receiving the punishment they deserve. That is not the same as salvation.

 

[A New Dawn]

You're imposing a philosophical understanding on that word. Yeah, God is sovereign but that doesn't mean what Calvinists impose upon it.

Which is what??? What do you think sovereign means if it doesn’t mean He is in charge?

 

[Brightfame52]

@A New Dawn

Are you defining mercy as salvation?

Yes in that context of Rom 11 Mercy is equivalent to salvation, its actually regeneration as in Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thats when an elect person in unbelief will be able to believe through the saving mercy of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Brightfame52]

Judging from Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If we take away the exception clause "except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" will man have freewill to come to Christ ?