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Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

ThatRobGuy

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Most other methods of suicide require a lot more work and planning than simply shooting yourself. I'm on my way to bed, so I don't really have time to try to dig up the research again right now, but it's been shown that a significant percentage of suicides are impulsive and that the more steps and actions required, the more likely the person is to change their mind.

They may be impulsive in some instances, but the broader data from nations that have implemented strict measures suggests that suicide rates were largely unimpacted. I showed the UK data earlier from before and after the handgun ban

The same pattern appeared to show up in Australia as well

Per PubMed
This study examined the increase in the rate of suicide by hanging and an apparently simultaneous decrease in the rate of suicide by firearm as hypothetical evidence that Australian males have substituted one method of suicide for another. Trends in hanging and firearm suicide rates were examined from 1975 to 1998 for all Australian males and from 1971 to 1998 for a subset of Australian male youth, as well as a group of Australian males aged over 64 years at the time of their death. When the firearm suicide rate for Australian males declined the hanging rate increased simultaneously, with no statistical difference in the overall rate of suicide.
 
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Larniavc

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If you really want to save lives, how about banning motor vehicles? Over 40,000 people a year die motor vehicle accidents in the United States each year. Why not just ban personal use of motor vehicles? In fact there is nothing in the Constitution specifically prohibiting it, that is, we don't need an amendment. Easy fix.
Funnily enough along with China and Brazil America is a world leader in car accidents as well as gun deaths.

Is there any thing Americans can be trusted to handle carefully.
 
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Hentenza

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Banning assault-style weapons is not the only thing that needs to change. I showed earlier that high capacity magazines have been used in over half of mass shootings with 6 or more killed. They are also used on the streets by criminals and gang members who kill and injure many people each year. Combine this with waiting periods, red flag laws, and universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers and sales, and thousands of lives will be saved each year.
Banning typically result in the flourishing of a black market so the thugs are still going to have the powerful weapons and the extended magazines and the law obeying citizen will not. I disagree with banning. I agree with a REASONABLE waiting period and universal background checks. I also think that a robust education program prioritizing safety and a “see something say something“ culture would help. The Hippa laws restrict the sharing of medical information which hinders medical professionals from sounding alarms of those with mental health issues that have killing thoughts. I’m not an expert here but Im sure there are people much smarter than me that can find a middle ground.
 
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caffeinated.hermit

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The prevailing attitudes of the general population (and especially among social-conservatives) seem to be bordered on one side by a desire to dissuade young people from the fact that they find themselves to be one of the unlucky zero point six percent of the population who (for whatever reason) are transgender; the other border, making sure that these same people have to live even tougher lives than just being transgender.

These people exist, to pretend they don’t could be seen as heartlessness.
Hey, Pommer. Gender dysphoria is real. Having said that... the very term "transgender" was originally meant to mean something closer to "gender non-conforming" or "gender queer", minus this modern, heavy emphasis on medical transition. It could *include* transexuals, but was also meant to include cross-dressers, butch lesbians, and anyone whose self-expression did not match what was expected of them based on their sex. The term began to change its meaning, somewhat, around 2007-2010, even prompting Leslie Feinberg to notice and express concern over it before she died.

This wave of young people experiencing gender dysphoria, wanting to transition, and feeling as though they can not go on living in their natural bodies also coincides with the rise of social media and, to an extent, social media on smart phones. I first ran into the ftm / mtf culture online back in the very late 90s / early 2000s. That's where I learned to chest bind and pack. Had I not been exposed to that information, I would have just been another androgynous, quirky kid who eventually would have learned to be ok with her body and move forward.

I really, really, think that we can not separate social media influence and mental health issues from the modern transgender identity. I've seen this movement develop and transform over 25 years, and it's not been good for anyone. Not for the hurting, confused kids, not for lgb people, and not for the families struggling to adjust to these changes. It's been great for the drug companies and surgeons, though.
 
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JosephZ

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CA gun owners responded with mod-kits to comply with the CA regs. The modified weapons are still capable in the hands of a maniac to do significant harm. See: 2020 Ultimate Guide to Compliant Featureless AR-15 Rifles
Even with the modifications, assault-style weapons would be limited in their capability compared to an assault-style weapon that's available in most other states. In California they are limited to just 10 rounds, and the way they are designed to be loaded, or the magazine switched out, takes longer. I have attached a video that shows how a magazine is switched out on a California-compliant weapon and one that is not. You will notice that there are more steps and it is more time consuming. An active shooter would have to repeat this process each time after firing 10 rounds.

The shooter that attacked the Assumption Church had a single magazine that held 60 rounds and several other 45-round magazines. The shooter would have had to go through the process seen in the first part of the video below ten times to do what they had to do only once at the church. This would have allowed people to react faster, and lives would have been saved if the shooter would have only had access to the type of weapon in the video. There would have been a brief break in the shooting after just 10 shots being fired. The shooter at the church was able to continually fire up to 60 rounds before any pause.

 
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Hentenza

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Guns are designed to hurl small bits of metal to supersonic speeds.
It seems that there’s a limited number of applications for such devices.
Sport, hunting, protection, and just plain fun honing shooting skills at the range. The constitution guarantees guns.
 
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Larniavc

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but the suicides shouldn't be part of the pubic policy discussion with regards to gun control.
They very definitely should. Reducing access to means is a proven method of reducing suicide completion.
 
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Larniavc

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o_mlly

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If you were in charge of such things, how would be you go about managing the maniacs?
Better parenting. What I am in charge of -- my children -- all of whom went through the "adolescent maniac" stage, w/o becoming mass murderers.


Focus on the disordered person, not the weapon:
Notably, most individuals who engaged in mass shootings used handguns (77.2%), and 25.1% used assault rifles in the commission of their crimes.
Listen to them:
Nearly half of individuals who engaged in mass shootings (48%) leaked their plans in advance to others, including family members, friends, and colleagues, as well as strangers and law enforcement officers.
Teach the children self-control, especially anger directed at other persons:
About 70% of individuals who perpetrated mass shooting knew at least some of their victims. In particular, K-12 school and workplace shooters were “insiders” — current or former students and employees.
Be wary of novel (ie., liberal) ideas on raising children:
  • The project spanned mass shootings over more than 50 years, yet 20% of the 167 mass shootings in that period occurred in the last five years of the study period.
  • More than half occurred after 2000, of which 33% occurred after 2010.
Not a comprehensive list but a start. And, if parents stopped going to church with their children then reconsider.
 
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Hentenza

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“Restricting access to means has been shown to be a very effective approach to suicide prevention, particularly with suicide methods that are relatively common.”

Thanks for posting the link. I read the portion relevant to this discussion which is suicides by firearms. Here is the portion of the paper on that topic.

Firearm suicides​

Use of firearms is a major suicide method in several countries, most notably the USA. There is evidence that availability of firearms (usually in the household) increases suicide risk (3·14-fold, according to one review)26 and that acquisition of firearms by households is associated with a substantial increase in suicides by any method (3·34-fold increase for male owners and 7·16-fold increase for female owners, relative to non-owners, in a longitudinal study in California, with this increase being entirely due to a rise in suicides involving firearms).27
Despite findings strongly linking firearm availability to suicide risk, especially in the USA, there is less evidence that initiatives to restrict access to firearms affect suicides.28 However, in an early study, introduction of a law in the District of Columbia banning the purchase, sale, transfer, or possession of handguns by civilians was followed by a 23% decrease in firearm suicides (and a 25% reduction in homicides), with no increase in suicides involving other methods and no decline in suicides in adjacent metropolitan areas where the law was not applied.29 A report in 2023 concluded that there is moderate evidence that laws in the USA preventing child access to firearms (eg, in households) reduced firearm self-injuries (and homicides) among young people and that laws setting the minimum age to purchase firearms at 21 years decreased suicides among young people.30 Other relevant studies include those from other countries where access to firearms has been reduced due to changes in military policy. In Switzerland, when the size of the national army was reduced by half between March, 2003, and February, 2004, resulting in considerably lowered availability of firearms, there was a reduction in both the firearm suicide rate and the overall suicide rate, with only a small increase in suicides by other methods.31 In Israel, where trainee soldiers aged 18–21 years used to take their firearms home when they were on weekend leave, a change in policy that required trainees to leave their firearms at their base was associated with a 40% overall reduction in suicides in this group; the evidence suggested that the reduction was due to fewer suicides involving firearms at weekends, with no reductions in suicides at other times.32 Other evidence of the beneficial effect on suicides of reducing the availability of firearms comes from initiatives in Australia in 1996 to remove semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns and rifles from civilian possession after a community gun massacre in Tasmania; these initiatives were followed by a major reduction in firearm suicides, with no evidence of method substitution.33
It is important to recognise that in a country such as the USA, where firearm ownership is very extensive and suicides involving firearms are common (in 2023, provisional data showed that of 43 994 firearm-related deaths in the USA, more than half were recorded as suicides),34 there are considerable challenges associated with introducing public health measures likely to reduce the use of firearms for suicide.35 These challenges include, for example, acknowledging the wide range of reasons for ownership of firearms, using language that will not antagonise some interested parties, engaging firearm owners and other members of the population in discussing safety policy, recognising the range of social and related factors influencing firearm ownership, involving relevant community-based organisations and respected members of relevant industries, and encouraging health-care providers to counsel patients and families about firearm safety and safe storage.”



The highlighted sentence is the writer’s recommendations. Some of these I suggested in a previous post. The gun ownership issue is a non starter since the US constitution guarantees access to guns. I like the writer’s recommendations with regards to health care providers but remember that they are hindered by Hippa laws. Educating people on gun safety is crucial but it also should include what red flags to look for and how to report it. I also think that adults that ignore plain red flags of a family member propensity for mental illness with violent tendencies should face charges if the violent incident happens. So gun control is only a small portion compared to other methods, particularly addressing mental health issues.
 
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essentialsaltes

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“This is not a church or religion attack, that is not the message,” Westman wrote. “The message is there is no message.”

Westman had suffered from depression and faced suicidal and homicidal thoughts for years, according to the journal.

“I have a loving family and a good support system of people that want to see me thrive,” Westman wrote. “For some reason, the fact that I have a pretty good life and the fact that I want kill people have never correlated to me.”

In the journal, Westman mentions a plan to try to buy a rifle from an acquaintance, and also opines on how it “should be harder for people like me to carry out these attacks.”
 
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RocksInMyHead

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They may be impulsive in some instances, but the broader data from nations that have implemented strict measures suggests that suicide rates were largely unimpacted. I showed the UK data earlier from before and after the handgun ban
At most, that demonstrates that a total ban on handguns doesn't necessarily change the suicide rate. However, researchers have found that putting restrictions or adding requirements to gun ownership has had a positive impact on suicide rates in the US (and that removing restrictions has a negative impact).


Handgun Legislation and Changes in Statewide Overall Suicide Rates - PMC (Builds on the previous article)




Incidentally, I looked up the Australian study, and I think you're misrepresenting the results - at least, assuming that it's the same one (it helps if you link your sources...)


This study found that while suicide by hanging did increase as suicide by firearm decreased, there was still a net decline of 8% in the male suicide rate following Australia's gun ban (female suicide remained steady) as suicide by gassing and poisoning also decreased due, in large part, to the introduction of laws restricting the prescription of certain medications and requiring all vehicles to be fitted with catalytic converters. Noting that the increase in suicide by hanging was virtually the same as the decrease in suicide by firearm ignores that context.
 
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JosephZ

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Banning typically result in the flourishing of a black market so the thugs are still going to have the powerful weapons and the extended magazines and the law obeying citizen will not.
There are always going to be people who ignore the law. That's not an excuse to do nothing. Law abiding citizens will still have access to weapons that are capable of dealing with criminals that may want to break into their homes. In public, most people that conceal or open carry are already carrying weapons that are less powerful and with lower magazine capacities than assault-style weapons.
 
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Hentenza

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There are always going to be people who ignore the law.
You, of course, will minimize this but history regarding banning items proves the opposite.
That's not an excuse to do nothing. Law abiding citizens will still have access to weapons that are capable of dealing with criminals that may want to break into their homes. In public, most people that conceal or open carry are already carrying weapons that are less powerful and with lower magazine capacities than an assault-style weapons.
Your focus is asw‘s primarily. Typical left battle cry. Look, knives kill 1,500 people a year and cars kill 40,000 plus but no one is crying about regulating knives or cars. Your battle cry is political and nothing else.
 
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Larniavc

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The gun ownership issue is a non starter since the US constitution guarantees access to guns.
Did you ignore the section that you posted? The finding about deaths when access to guns was reduced?

IT WENT DOWN!

So saying ‘yeah but we’re not allowed to restrict gun access because of a rule made 250 years ago’ is beyond stupid.

But go ahead America; keeping letting kids get gunned down in schools. America society has failed it’s most vulnerable.
 
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Nithavela

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Even with the modifications, assault-style weapons would be limited in their capability compared to an assault-style weapon that's available in most other states. In California they are limited to just 10 rounds, and the way they are designed to be loaded, or the magazine switched out, takes longer. I have attached a video that shows how a magazine is switched out on a California-compliant weapon and one that is not. You will notice that there are more steps and it is more time consuming. An active shooter would have to repeat this process each time after firing 10 rounds.

The shooter that attacked the Assumption Church had a single magazine that held 60 rounds and several other 45-round magazines. The shooter would have had to go through the process seen in the first part of the video below ten times to do what they had to do only once at the church. This would have allowed people to react faster, and lives would have been saved if the shooter would have only had access to the type of weapon in the video. There would have been a brief break in the shooting after just 10 shots being fired. The shooter at the church was able to continually fire up to 60 rounds before any pause.

Gotta love the comments below that video.
 
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