Trump to sign executive order directing AG to prosecute flag desecration

[Tropical Wilds]

Actually, a 23 year old man was arrested in the UK for saying “we love bacon” outside a UK mosque several days ago. The entire country doesn’t hate it, but it offended someone.

Ridiculous

That’s not the whole story, and that’s not anywhere close to it now being a hate crime to love bacon in the U.K.

A man, who was protesting at the site of a mosque and hotel that was housing migrants in an area that had experienced minor riots, was warned more than a dozen times that he and his escalating group needed to get under control. After ignoring that order from multiple police officers more than a dozen times, he continued his behavior by yelling that he loved bacon (among other things) and was arrested for one count of racially or religiously aggravated public order violations, not a hate crime.

Again, I don’t know what the need is to seek out and claim victimhood with some people, but the least marginalized demographic out hunting for reasons to feel put upon like it legitimizes them in some way is absurd.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

"Flaming" huh? "Flat out lie" huh? Perhaps I deserve an apology.

Yes, flaming, and yes, a flat-out lie. A man was part of a protest at a mosque and hotel housing migrants (which already means he’s not the brightest or best apple in the crate) and the crowd was increasingly getting out of control in an area that had experienced riots. After more than a dozen warnings from multiple police to stop antagonizing people, he was arrested for racially or religiously aggravated public order offense, not a hate crime. And that’s hardly the country making it illegal to announce you like bacon.

If somebody was protesting outside of a church in an increasingly hostile and rowdy crowd in an area where there were riots and yelled “I love abortions,” you would be sobbing in your cereal and bleating all up and down these forums about how awful it was to be mocked for your faith. People say less provocative things than that here and people beat a worn path to the “report button” for how offended they feel.

This is just you and your persistent quest to perpetually and always be claiming victimhood despite being the least marginalized segment of society in the country, because you feel like it makes you feel important or more valid. Having to adhere to the same level of decorum and respect that you expect others to hold for you, then getting punished for not doing it, does not make you a victim.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I agree. But one would expect a poster to ask for a source before the insults and accusations.

Again with the victimhood. You were wrong and purposely spun Islam to be the boogeyman (again) and a broad claim about what happens in the U.K. when really that specific person was acting like a jerk and got in trouble for it.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

@Tropical Wilds' statement removes it from context-dependence.

I was talking about something entirely different, but ok.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I see no way to read her statement honestly as anything other than if the flag has been used in a racist context anywhere, it must be seen in a racist context everywhere.

There are plenty of other ways to read it and understand it, actually… The way I meant it might me a good way to start.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

By the way, I am glad to hear that you find the UK's policies on free speech to be absurd. I agree.

I find your interpretation of it to be absurd, right up there with saying January 6th was no more than a tour group. This is not an issue of free speech, however, but of behaving in a way consistent with inciting public discord. Free speech does not cover that.

If he was simply arrested for yelling “I love bacon,” yes, it would be absurd. I fully agree. He was not, though. He was at a religious facility and a place that was housing migrants who have as many rights to be in that country as he does yelling deliberately provocative things to harass and intimidate in an increasingly hostile crowd in an area of unrest and he was warned more than a dozen times to knock it off, but didn’t.

As the kids say, he fiddled around and found out.

 

[RDKirk]

There are plenty of other ways to read it and understand it, actually… The way I meant it might me a good way to start.

So, the "okay" sign is okay to use.

 

[RDKirk]

Which is another absurd concept. One I'd never heard of actually). But just because a few people hold to a particular absurd position doesn't make it any less absurd.

It's like saying that wearing a cross around your neck is racist because the KKK used to burn them symbolically.

There are actually black people around me saying that.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

@Tropical Wilds' statement removes it from context-dependence.

No, it isn't. The comment was:

"This is one of many weaknesses of the left. They are so worried by the negative connotations of anything that it is far to easy to take things away from them. Be it political topics, symbols or just simple hand gestures like the OK sign, once it is used by a racist, it becomes politically incorrect to use, and anyone using it becomes suspect. No wonder the left alienates people."

My reply was:

"It’s not that we are worried about negative connotations and political correctness… It’s that when something becomes a thing used by racists to be racists, we don’t want to be lumped in with the racists.

We harken back to the time where doing things that racists did was entirely undesirable."

You have somehow twisted that to mean I always think the American flag is racist, which I don't and never claimed, and then blaming me for an opinion you invented me as having. I even said quite specifically "How some do so, yes, but that wasn’t what I was thinking of as an example. I don’t think ICE using American flags is an automatic display of racism." I had a flag under my mailbox, I have two Army stickers and an American flag on my car, I decorate my house with American flags on Memorial Day, July 4th, Veterans Day, September 11, and I used to for President's day. Obviously, I don't think all American flags are racist.

The original statement was the use of political topics, symbols, and gestures like the "Ok" becoming an expression of racism now means when we see it, we become suspectful of the intentions behind them. Up until recently, that just was common sense. I see somebody walking down the road in a white hood and a cloak, I don't say to myself "well they must really enjoy ghosts!" I have my guard up because that has been to known to mean a super specific, racist thing. It also means that when I was kimono shopping, I didn't pick the all-white one because I didn't want to give the appearance of somebody I don't wish to give the appearance of. I see somebody flying a confederate flag and an American flag, yes, I'm going to have suspicions that the US flag isn't being flown as a simple statement of US pride, but one of white pride, and it's why I don't buy a confederate flag shirt for my kid when I'm in Gettysburg.

Frankly, you're arguing about nonsense because the point of these groups adopting some of these symbols and gestures is specifically to convey racist principles. They want those symbols to mean those things. Acknowledging that those symbols can and are used that way by specific design is the point they're trying to make. They want to identify like-minded people and as non-like-minded people who don't want to be associated with racists, obviously displaying those symbols will be less-than-desirable.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

It is absurd. But unless Tropical is going to rachet back her statement, that's what her statement means.

And in fact, that's what liberals in the US are precisely doing. That's why a person can't give the traditional "okay" hand sign anymore without being identified as a racist.

I have nothing to ratchet back. You made a false assumption, said it was me, then expected me to justify the position you invented for me, and when I don't because it's not my viewpoint, you get all weird. You're arguing with yourself, not with me.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So, the "okay" sign is okay to use.

Again, it depends. If I say "please file these papers" and my coworker flashes me the "Ok" symbol, life goes on and all is well. If I am protesting outside of an area housing black persons and I'm saying incendiary things while flashing the "Ok" symbol, no, it is not. Since I know that the "Ok" symbol is used as a dog whistle to racist intimidation, I'm certainly not going to flash it to a person of color or Muslim person when they say something I agree with. It may convey something I don't want to convey and is, understandably, something they'd probably be a bit alert to.

I get the whole "Ok" thing started as a joke/meme, but it has been used enough publicly in a way to convey real racism that I'm certainly going to think twice about how I use it and will notice it if it's used in a context that could convey a racist viewpoint.

Like, I'm at Disney and they aren't allowed to point when giving directions, so when they tell me that "fantasyland is over there" pointing with an open hand, thumb down, over their head, I'm going to know they're just pointing. A group of people do it standing for a photo op in front of an American flag doing it? I'm not going to think they're all pointing at something off-camera.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

There are actually black people around me saying that.

I never, ever in my entire life, with all the people of color I've met, in all the places I have been, have ever once met a person who said simply wearing a cross is racist. Given the role of the black church in America and the fact that a significantly higher percentage black Americans identify as some version of Christian vs white people (70% of black Americans identify as some form of Christian vs only 56% of white Americans as of 2023 and black conversion to Christianity is increasing while white American is in a freefall), it defies logic and common sense to make that as a claim.

Something tells me that like what you're doing with me and the American flag where you've invented a narrative for me, one person said something completely different and you just developed a different narrative and ran with it as the standard for all. I suspect it was more something like wearing the iron cross or the Celtic cross or blood cross makes people question the motivations of the wearer, not all crosses.

 

[RDKirk]

Again, it depends. If I say "please file these papers" and my coworker flashes me the "Ok" symbol, life goes on and all is well. If I am protesting outside of an area housing black persons and I'm saying incendiary things while flashing the "Ok" symbol, no, it is not. If I'm Since I know that the "Ok" symbol is used as a dog whistle to racist intimidation, I'm certainly not going to flash it to a person of color or Muslim person when they say something I agree with.

You can't get away from proving my point.

You know that black people also traditionally use the "okay" sign, right?

If it's suddenly not okay to use the okay symbol to black people, that proves my point.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

You can't get away from proving my point.

You know that black people also traditionally use the "okay" sign, right?

If it's suddenly not okay to use the okay symbol to black people, that proves my point.

So a minute ago, you think I thought the American flag is always racist, all the time, and you're upset that I didn't account for context. Now, you ask about the OK symbol and if it's Ok, to do, I say it depends on context, and you're upset because apparently context doesn't matter and to say it does proves your point. Honestly, I think you're arguing to argue because you want to be mad, even if you don't know exactly what you're mad about.

Yes, I'm aware that black people use the okay sign. I'm aware they also use a word that I'd never use as a term of familiarity and endearment. However, just because they choose to use it in scenarios they know it to be appropriate contextually and in scenarios they know it to be appropriate for doesn't mean I'm going to do it. When I do it, it could mean something entirely different and since I want to make sure the line between me and racists is super, super clear, I'm not going to do it. Why? Because when people like me do it, it is reasonable to assume it might mean something entirely different.

Context matters, my dude.

 

[RDKirk]

So a minute ago, you think I thought the American flag is always racist, all the time, and you're upset that I didn't account for context. Now, you ask about the OK symbol and if it's Ok, to do, I say it depends on context, and you're upset because apparently context doesn't matter and to say it does proves your point. Honestly, I think you're arguing to argue because you want to be mad, even if you don't know exactly what you're mad about.

Yes, I'm aware that black people use the okay sign. I'm aware they also use a word that I'd never use as a term of familiarity and endearment. However, just because they choose to use it in scenarios they know it to be appropriate contextually and in scenarios they know it to be appropriate for doesn't mean I'm going to do it. When I do it, it could mean something entirely different and since I want to make sure the line between me and racists is super, super clear, I'm not going to do it. Why? Because when people like me do it, it is reasonable to assume it might mean something entirely different.

Context matters, my dude.

The context of the okay sign did not matter five years ago. It always meant "okay" in every context.

The point of this discussion tangent is that liberals let racists box their communication with the slightest of effort.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The context of the okay sign did not matter five years ago. It always meant "okay" in every context.

The point of this discussion tangent is that liberals let racists box their communication with the slightest of effort.

So what? The context of the swastika didn't matter before 1890 as it almost always meant prosperity, blessings, and good luck. Walk through the military portion of our graveyard and a whole bunch of people have it on gravestones from the 1920s because they were in the 45th Infantry.

Then it was appropriated and context mattered. Now people don't think "45th Infantry," they think "Nazis." Things change. Welcome to living through history.

Though I will point out that the "ok" symbol didn't ALWAYS mean okay in every context (when I was a kid, it was the go-to symbol for one's rear orifice) nor is the racist usage less than 5 years old. It was added to the list of symbols in 2019 and the first trickles of it being used as a hate sign started in 2015. In 2016/17, 4chan users tried to make it a power symbol as a social experiment/joke, and by 2018 it had been adopted by white supremacists to make racist messages. So it's been a thing for closing in on a decade.

And it's not allowing racists box communication with the slightest of effort... You're being dramatic. It's more like enough people took a symbol and used it to mean something racist, and we have a problem with racists and don't want to emulate them so we don't do those things. There was a time where not emulating racists wasn't a controversy.

 

[RileyG]

That’s not the whole story, and that’s not anywhere close to it now being a hate crime to love bacon in the U.K.

A man, who was protesting at the site of a mosque and hotel that was housing migrants in an area that had experienced minor riots, was warned more than a dozen times that he and his escalating group needed to get under control. After ignoring that order from multiple police officers more than a dozen times, he continued his behavior by yelling that he loved bacon (among other things) and was arrested for one count of racially or religiously aggravated public order violations, not a hate crime.

Again, I don’t know what the need is to seek out and claim victimhood with some people, but the least marginalized demographic out hunting for reasons to feel put upon like it legitimizes them in some way is absurd.

So yelling “I love bacon” is enough to get someone arrested? If he was warned, then, maybe he deserved it. I dunno. Still, that sounds ridiculous to me. Hardly aggravating.

 

[RDKirk]

So what? The context of the swastika didn't matter before 1890 as it almost always meant prosperity, blessings, and good luck. Walk through the military portion of our graveyard and a whole bunch of people have it on gravestones from the 1920s because they were in the 45th Infantry.

Then it was appropriated and context mattered. Now people don't think "45th Infantry," they think "Nazis." Things change. Welcome to living through history.

That took an entire world war and millions dead.

Though I will point out that the "ok" symbol didn't ALWAYS mean okay in every context (when I was a kid, it was the go-to symbol for one's rear orifice) nor is the racist usage less than 5 years old. It was added to the list of symbols in 2019 and the first trickles of it being used as a hate sign started in 2015. In 2016/17, 4chan users tried to make it a power symbol as a social experiment/joke, and by 2018 it had been adopted by white supremacists to make racist messages. So it's been a thing for closing in on a decade.

Okay, it's been a thing for ten years among a narrow segment of white social media users.

That certainly does not compare to the use of the swastika by the Germans...which involved an entire world war and millions dead.

And it's not allowing racists box communication with the slightest of effort... You're being dramatic. It's more like enough people took a symbol and used it to mean something racist, and we have a problem with racists and don't want to emulate them so we don't do those things. There was a time where not emulating racists wasn't a controversy.

Among a narrow segment of white social media users. That still amounts to liberals allowing a small set of racists to box their communication with the slightest of effort.

 

[RDKirk]

So yelling “I love bacon” is enough to get someone arrested? If he was warned, then, maybe he deserved it. I dunno. Still, that sounds ridiculous to me. Hardly aggravating.

The UK doesn't identify freedom of speech as a legal fundamental right of citizens, so there is that. They've been doing this kind of thing for years.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

That took an entire world war and millions dead.

Yep. Sometimes it's not that dramatic, but sometimes it is.

Okay, it's been a thing for ten years among a narrow segment of white social media users.

Not just them, but whatever.

That certainly does not compare to the use of the swastika by the Germans...which involved an entire world war and millions dead.

I didn't say it did. You're the one who's making that comparison like it matters somehow. The KKK didn't start a world war, yet we don't embrace their messaging and imagery either.

Among a narrow segment of white social media users. That still amounts to liberals allowing a small set of racists to box their communication with the slightest of effort.

In my 40+ years on earth, I've yet to find the scenario where I need adopt a racist phrase, symbol, or ideology in a sensitive situation in order to have a baseline interaction with somebody. I don't anticipate that I'll be saying anytime soon "Oh no, a person of color is here and I need to express something is going adequately... Without doing an "ok" gesture, how ever will I communicate that? There's no other option and now nobody will know that this situation is midline satisfactory..."

If you find communication boxed by not using the "ok" gesture, that denotes an inability on your part to communicate. If you're using a symbol you know to have racist meaning in a context you know could be taken as a racist gesture because you have no other way to communicate, again, that denotes one's poor communication skills, one's lack of self-awareness, or potentially that one is too comfortable doing things they know could be interpreted as racist and being OK with it. Again, I prefer to have a pretty clear line between things I do and things racists do. Other's mileage may vary if they have a different sense of ethics or morality... Which, again... If that leads to people treating them differently as a result, it's firmly a "them" problem, not a "me" problem.