Question for my Catholic brothers and sisters

[concretecamper]

I quoted Pope Francis -

Do you think he had an axe to grind also?

All I can do is objectively comment on your post, and correct them if needed

In 1960, there were approx 428,000 worldwide. Hardly hemorrhaging between then and 2023.

If you want to talk about a isolated geography like the article highlights, that is fine. But you presented it in a universal sense, which is wrong, and I corrected you.

Intention mischaracterzations is a Hallmark of someone who has an axe to grind

 

[Always in His Presence]

All I can do is objectively comment on your post, and correct them if needed

I quoted the pope - did he have an axe to grind?

Will you be correcting him?

 

[joymercy]

Celibacy is a gift; it is so incredibly beautiful to witness as well as to receive

I have seen the amount of time given to serve the church in wonder and awe, by Holy Catholic Priests who truly love Christ the Bridegroom

God is so good!

 

[mourningdove~]

The thread title does not specify 'which' Catholics can respond, so as a former Catholic I will present the following evidence that disproves the statement made that 'moral failures with a woman are very rare'.

Children of the Ordained
Children of the ordained is a term the Vatican uses to describe the offspring of ordained Catholic priests who have taken a vow of clerical celibacy. The children are a "result of affairs involving priests and laywomen or nuns – others of abuse or rape". Not many of these children are known, but the most famous is probably Vincent Doyle, who has started a support group, Coping International.

Children of the ordained - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Coping International Ltd.
Coping International is first and foremost a tool for marginalised children fathered by Roman Catholic Priests and Religious.

Coping International Ltd. – Children of Priests International.

www.copinginternational.com

And an article, from the Vatican website:

Our Fathers: What is it like to be the child of a priest?​

Our Fathers: What is it like to be the child of a priest? - Vatican News

Coping International founder Vincent Doyle, himself the child of a priest, accompanies others in the same situation through a web site and now through ...

www.vaticannews.va

This isn't gossip or slander or lies.
The Vatican itself acknowledges this situation exists.

"In 2014, a letter was sent on behalf of His Holiness Pope Francis blessing Coping International Children of Catholic Priests and Religious. The importance of this letter cannot be understated, as his open pastoral arms opened both doors and institutional and public dialogue between the Vatican and the secret children of the ordained and religious for the first time in human history."​

Papal Blessing. – Coping International Ltd.

www.copinginternational.com

There are a multitude of videos available on YouTube that explore this situation.
One just need query "children of priests" to find them.

Since I recently left the RCC, I'll now respectfully leave this thread in case my presence is uncomfortable for any, but if there is to be an honest discussion on the subject of celibacy, let's be transparent and not forget the children of Catholic priests.

 

[concretecamper]

The thread title does not specify 'which' Catholics can respond, so as a former Catholic I will present the following evidence that disproves the statement made that 'moral failures with a woman are very rare'.

Children of the Ordained
Children of the ordained is a term the Vatican uses to describe the offspring of ordained Catholic priests who have taken a vow of clerical celibacy. The children are a "result of affairs involving priests and laywomen or nuns – others of abuse or rape". Not many of these children are known, but the most famous is probably Vincent Doyle, who has started a support group, Coping International.

Children of the ordained - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Coping International Ltd.
Coping International is first and foremost a tool for marginalised children fathered by Roman Catholic Priests and Religious.

Coping International Ltd. – Children of Priests International.

www.copinginternational.com

And an article, from the Vatican website:

Our Fathers: What is it like to be the child of a priest?​

Our Fathers: What is it like to be the child of a priest? - Vatican News

Coping International founder Vincent Doyle, himself the child of a priest, accompanies others in the same situation through a web site and now through ...

www.vaticannews.va

This isn't gossip or slander or lies.
The Vatican itself acknowledges this situation exists.

"In 2014, a letter was sent on behalf of His Holiness Pope Francis blessing Coping International Children of Catholic Priests and Religious. The importance of this letter cannot be understated, as his open pastoral arms opened both doors and institutional and public dialogue between the Vatican and the secret children of the ordained and religious for the first time in human history."​

Papal Blessing. – Coping International Ltd.

www.copinginternational.com

There are a multitude of videos available on YouTube that explore this situation.
One just need query "children of priests" to find them.

Since I recently left the RCC, I'll now respectfully leave this thread in case my presence is uncomfortable for any, but if there is to be an honest discussion on the subject of celibacy, let's be transparent and not forget the children of Catholic priests.

Thank you for posting information that does not show that Catholic priests fathering children is not rare.

 

[mourningdove~]

Thank you for posting information that does not show that Catholic priests fathering children is not rare.

You are welcome for the information ...
but I don't think I have failed to disprove your statement: "Moral failures with a woman are very rare".

If what you are wanting to see is 'exact' statistics, for obvious reasons they are not publicly available. And yet, though we do not know them, the Vatican has seen fit to acknowledge this situation, and to support the work of Coping International.

Each reader will have to decide for him or herself, if priest moral failures with a woman are "very rare".
(Note: I'm assuming that you view 'a priest fathering a child' to be a moral failure, right?)

Well, I'm not here to convince you or anyone of anything, just to acknowledge a situation that has been an ongoing problem in the RCC for quite some time now. At least according to the living children of priests who have chosen to publicly share their life stories. Quite of few of them can be found on YouTube.


AI Overview

While it's impossible to know the exact number, it's estimated that thousands of children have been fathered by Catholic priests, though the exact number is unknown. The Catholic Church does not keep official records of priests fathering children due to its celibacy requirement.

Here's why it's difficult to get a precise number:

• Secrecy:
  Many cases of priests fathering children are kept secret, both from the public and sometimes even within the Church itself.
  
  
• Lack of Official Records:
  The Church does not track these instances, making it challenging to gather data.
  
  
• Varying Estimates:
  Estimates range from thousands to tens of thousands, but there is no definitive count.

Several organizations and individuals are working to raise awareness and provide support for children of priests and to advocate for recognition and change within the Church.

____________________________________________________________


AI Overview


Information and statistics regarding Catholic priests fathering children are difficult to pinpoint precisely due to the culture of secrecy surrounding such situations and the lack of official record-keeping
.
Key points

• Estimates vary and are often based on anecdotal evidence or studies with specific limitations. For instance, one estimate suggests that 20,000 children may have been fathered by priests worldwide, out of a total of 450,000 priests.
• Studies like Richard Sipe's work in the 1990s suggest that celibacy vows are not always strictly adhered to, with an estimated 50% of priests not faithfully living up to the promise. Sipe's work highlighted the secrecy surrounding celibacy and its potential impact on other issues, including the protection of child abusers.
• The existence of online support groups like Coping International, with thousands of users, further indicates the prevalence of children fathered by priests.
• The Vatican acknowledges the existence of these situations, having developed internal guidelines for handling cases where priests have fathered children, according to The New York Times. However, the guidelines are not made public and their enforcement can be inconsistent.
• The Catholic Church's historical handling of these cases has been marked by secrecy and a lack of support for the children and their mothers. This has led to individuals seeking recognition and support through legal action and public advocacy.

Important considerations

• It is crucial to distinguish between cases of priests fathering children through consensual relationships and those involving abuse or non-consensual situations. According to National Catholic Reporter, some children of priests are the result of loving relationships, while others stem from abuse or coercion.
• The issue is complex and intertwined with the debate surrounding mandatory celibacy for priests. Some argue that the celibacy requirement is unrealistic and contributes to the problem, while others maintain its importance to the priesthood.
• The focus is increasingly shifting towards ensuring the welfare of the children and providing support to them and their mothers.

Therefore, while precise statistics are elusive, the evidence suggests that priests fathering children is not an uncommon occurrence, highlighting the need for greater transparency and support for those affected.

 

[Aaron112]

Each reader will have to decide for him or herself, if priest moral failures with a woman are "very rare".
(Note: I'm assuming that you view 'a priest fathering a child' to be a moral failure, right?)

When a reader reads about the city (or town) in France (or other) that decided to give women a way to bring charges in the court against the men who abused/raped them, the number of women stepping forward far exceeded the city's legal system/ability to respond, and they dropped them all. This seems to be all too common in many countries/ cities/ communities/ counties world-wide. for many centuries since before the first century.

 

[concretecamper]

You are welcome for the information ...
but I don't think I have failed to disprove your statement: "Moral failures with a woman are very rare".

If what you are wanting to see is 'exact' statistics, for obvious reasons they are not publicly available. And yet, though we do not know them, the Vatican has seen fit to acknowledge this situation, and to support the work of Coping International.

Each reader will have to decide for him or herself, if priest moral failures with a woman are "very rare".
(Note: I'm assuming that you view 'a priest fathering a child' to be a moral failure, right?)

Well, I'm not here to convince you or anyone of anything, just to acknowledge a situation that has been an ongoing problem in the RCC for quite some time now. At least according to the living children of priests who have chosen to publicly share their life stories. Quite of few of them can be found on YouTube.


AI Overview

While it's impossible to know the exact number, it's estimated that thousands of children have been fathered by Catholic priests, though the exact number is unknown. The Catholic Church does not keep official records of priests fathering children due to its celibacy requirement.

Here's why it's difficult to get a precise number:

• Secrecy:
  Many cases of priests fathering children are kept secret, both from the public and sometimes even within the Church itself.
  
  
• Lack of Official Records:
  The Church does not track these instances, making it challenging to gather data.
  
  
• Varying Estimates:
  Estimates range from thousands to tens of thousands, but there is no definitive count.

Several organizations and individuals are working to raise awareness and provide support for children of priests and to advocate for recognition and change within the Church.

____________________________________________________________


AI Overview


Information and statistics regarding Catholic priests fathering children are difficult to pinpoint precisely due to the culture of secrecy surrounding such situations and the lack of official record-keeping
.
Key points

• Estimates vary and are often based on anecdotal evidence or studies with specific limitations. For instance, one estimate suggests that 20,000 children may have been fathered by priests worldwide, out of a total of 450,000 priests.
• Studies like Richard Sipe's work in the 1990s suggest that celibacy vows are not always strictly adhered to, with an estimated 50% of priests not faithfully living up to the promise. Sipe's work highlighted the secrecy surrounding celibacy and its potential impact on other issues, including the protection of child abusers.
• The existence of online support groups like Coping International, with thousands of users, further indicates the prevalence of children fathered by priests.
• The Vatican acknowledges the existence of these situations, having developed internal guidelines for handling cases where priests have fathered children, according to The New York Times. However, the guidelines are not made public and their enforcement can be inconsistent.
• The Catholic Church's historical handling of these cases has been marked by secrecy and a lack of support for the children and their mothers. This has led to individuals seeking recognition and support through legal action and public advocacy.

Important considerations

• It is crucial to distinguish between cases of priests fathering children through consensual relationships and those involving abuse or non-consensual situations. According to National Catholic Reporter, some children of priests are the result of loving relationships, while others stem from abuse or coercion.
• The issue is complex and intertwined with the debate surrounding mandatory celibacy for priests. Some argue that the celibacy requirement is unrealistic and contributes to the problem, while others maintain its importance to the priesthood.
• The focus is increasingly shifting towards ensuring the welfare of the children and providing support to them and their mothers.

Therefore, while precise statistics are elusive, the evidence suggests that priests fathering children is not an uncommon occurrence, highlighting the need for greater transparency and support for those affected.

Website click turned into estimates, you've got to be kidding me

There is so much you guys could take issue with the His Church that I would agree with. But you seem intent on bringing up stuff so blatantly false. It's obvious truth isn't the motivation, slander is the motivation.

 

[concretecamper]

If what you are wanting to see is 'exact' statistics, for obvious reasons they are not publicly available.

But through some miracle, you know what they are and can say I am wrong about moral failure of priests with women.

If you continued your AI reading, it would in fact say they are rare. Another proof your motivation is to slander His Church.

 

[mourningdove~]

But through some miracle, you know what they are and can say I am wrong about moral failure of priests with women.

​

Vatican office admits silence about children of priests was a mistake​

Vatican office has acknowledged that the Catholic Church erred over previous decades in asking its members to keep silent when they heard about priests fathering children.

"Before our times, the Church did like most institutions and avoided addressing publicly matters regarding its members' behavior, about which it kept silent," Norbertine Fr. Bernard Ardura, president of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Sciences, said in a document published last week.

"This was a mistake, which can be explained by the context, but it remains a mistake," said Ardura.

The priest, whose office is responsible for fostering cooperation between the Vatican and outside historians, was writing in a letter to Vincent Doyle, the child of a priest in Ireland and the leader of Coping International, a global campaign for the recognition of priests' children. Doyle's organization has posted the letter, written in French, on its website.

"I sent the questions to the Pontifical Committee of Historical Sciences mainly because ... it is especially important to acknowledge officially the misdeeds of the institutions in the past that has lasted and continued for centuries," Doyle said in an NCR interview. Acknowledging this mistake is the first step toward correcting it, said Doyle.

"When, for the first time in its 2,000-year history, the church examines this question, it is fulfilling its mission, which is not only a mission of charity, but also a mission of justice," he said. "Thus, not only is this Vatican-led acknowledgment historic, but more importantly it is the right thing to do; indeed, it is the Catholic thing to do."

Ardura told NCR in a brief interview that he decided to respond to Doyle as a matter of principle, wanting to respond to a person asking him questions.

"In this case, a lot of suffering is at stake and a lot of wounds take a long time to heal," said the priest. "I consider it a priority to express my closeness concretely, while trying to understand from a historical point of view how and why the institution took its [former] position."

"We have to accept our history in all its aspects and it is not always easy," said Ardura.

Vatican office admits silence about children of priests was a mistake

In a letter to the son of a priest, the head of the Vatican's historical office acknowledged that the Catholic Church erred over previous decades in keeping silent about priests fathering children.

www.ncronline.org

 

[mourningdove~]

There is so much you guys could take issue with the His Church that I would agree with. But you seem intent on bringing up stuff so blatantly false. It's obvious truth isn't the motivation, slander is the motivation.

My motivation is not slander. Nothing I've posted is false.
(And since you wanted statistics, the best I could give you was AI.)

I know the truth is sometimes hard to hear. We can hate the messenger for telling it to us. But, yes, priests have been fathering children. It has gone on for years (forever?). And the Vatican is aware of the problem. And has established guidelines for dealing with it.

The purpose of this thread has not been to declare priests as 'bad' persons.
The purpose has been to discuss the issue of priestly celibacy.

Personally, I can understand if a priest falls in love with a parishioner. And accidents do happen. But that is the point, isn't it? Priests are men, too. Men with needs and human desires. "It is not good for man to be alone."

It is not healthy to attempt to live a celibate life, unless one has been given the gift of celibacy. But clearly not all priests are given it. With all we now know about homosexual activity, sexual abuse, and fathering children ... clearly the celibacy mandate is not working for the RCC.

Please stop falsely accusing me of slanderizing, just because the information I've shared is painful to you. It was very painful to me, too, when I discovered it a few months ago.

​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Got proof?

Documented Sources​

1. Spiritual Formation Towards Pentecostal Leadership as Discipleship

• Authors: Jeremy Feller & Christo Lombaard
• Published in: KOERS — Bulletin for Christian Scholarship
• Summary: This study explores how Pentecostal leadership is shaped by spiritual formation and discipleship, noting that leadership models vary widely across contexts and are influenced by post-secular cultural shifts. It highlights tensions between traditional charismatic authority and emerging models of structured discipleship.
• Read the full article (PDF)

2. Understanding Pentecostal Church Governance

• Publisher: Number Analytics Blog
• Summary: This guide outlines the diverse governance structures within Pentecostal churches, including apostolic and eldership models. It notes that leadership formation is deeply tied to spiritual experiences and biblical interpretation, which can lead to fluctuations depending on theological emphasis and cultural context.
• Explore the governance models

3. Adaptivity of Church Leadership: A Case of Two Pentecostal Churches in Zambia

• Authors: Mulutula Kenneth & Malvern Kanyati
• Published in: International Journal of Fundamental and Multidisciplinary Research
• Summary: This empirical study documents leadership challenges during religious transitions, including constitutional amendments. It reveals gaps between espoused values and actual leadership behaviour, underscoring the adaptive pressures and fluctuating competencies in Pentecostal leadership.
• Access the case study (PDF)

These sources collectively demonstrate that Pentecostal leadership formation is not monolithic. It fluctuates due to theological diversity, cultural pressures, governance models, and adaptive challenges during transitions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Got proof?

and yet Pentecostal and Evangelical are growing at a faster rate in those areas of the world.

I found this interesting and inciteful

Why the Catholic church is ‘hemorrhaging’ priests​

Why is the church “hemorrhaging” priests, to use Pope Francis’s words? I study Catholic history, so I have long considered this question.​

​

Why are there fewer priests?​

The demands of the job are a killer combination in today’s world.​

​

Between strict restrictions on sexuality and the loss of priests’ social status, there are ever fewer seminary students. Consequently, fewer men become priests, particularly in remote parts of the world. In the Amazon region, there is one priest for every 10,000 Catholics.​

​

Responding to this challenge, Pope Francis in 2017 suggested that the Church might allow married men to be ordained. Many Church officials believe the requirement of celibacy is the main reason fewer men are joining the priesthood.​

Compiling a century-long, per capita global analysis of Catholic priestly vocations is a formidable task, given the uneven availability of historical data and the evolving definitions of “calls” or “vocations.” However, based on Vatican statistical yearbooks, scholarly estimates, and demographic reconstructions, we can present a reasonably accurate and well-sourced overview.

---

Global Per Capita Vocations to the Catholic Priesthood (1925–2025)​

This table estimates the number of active Catholic priests per million Catholics at 10-year intervals, reflecting both ordinations and attrition. It does not include seminarians or those who discerned but did not complete formation.

Year	Estimated Global Catholic Population	Estimated Number of Priests	Priests per Million Catholics
1925	~300 million	~250,000	~833
1935	~330 million	~260,000	~788
1945	~360 million	~270,000	~750
1955	~450 million	~290,000	~644
1965	~550 million	~420,000	~764
1975	~650 million	~405,000	~623
1985	~750 million	~405,000	~540
1995	~950 million	~404,000	~425
2005	~1.1 billion	~406,000	~369
2015	~1.27 billion	~415,000	~327
2025	~1.41 billion	~407,000	~289

Sources:

• Vatican’s Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae (annual statistical yearbook)
• Pontifical Yearbook 2025 and related reports
• Historical reconstructions from Catholic demographic studies and Pew Research

---

Key Trends and Interpretations​

• Peak Vocations: The post-WWII era (1950s–1960s) saw a surge in priestly vocations, especially in Europe and North America.
• Decline Post-1970s: The number of priests plateaued and then declined, while the Catholic population continued to grow—especially in Latin America, Africa, and Asia.
• Regional Shifts:
  • Africa and Asia now contribute the majority of seminarians, despite having fewer priests per capita.
  • Europe and the Americas face priest shortages, with aging clergy and fewer ordinations.

---

Global Summary (2025)​

• Total Catholics: ~1.41 billion
• Total Priests: ~407,000
• Global Ratio: ~289 priests per million Catholics
• Average Catholics per Priest: ~3,373

Data provided by Copilot in answer to the question:

present a very well researched and very accurate set of figures, for The number of per capita Calls.to The Catholic priesthood from the Catholic population, include all countries give a single figure for the entire world, and give the number for the past 100 years at 10 year intervals.​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Got proof?

and yet Pentecostal and Evangelical are growing at a faster rate in those areas of the world.

I found this interesting and inciteful

Why the Catholic church is ‘hemorrhaging’ priests​

Why is the church “hemorrhaging” priests, to use Pope Francis’s words? I study Catholic history, so I have long considered this question.​

​

Why are there fewer priests?​

The demands of the job are a killer combination in today’s world.​

​

Between strict restrictions on sexuality and the loss of priests’ social status, there are ever fewer seminary students. Consequently, fewer men become priests, particularly in remote parts of the world. In the Amazon region, there is one priest for every 10,000 Catholics.​

​

Responding to this challenge, Pope Francis in 2017 suggested that the Church might allow married men to be ordained. Many Church officials believe the requirement of celibacy is the main reason fewer men are joining the priesthood.​

Here is a carefully reconstructed and well-sourced estimate of global per capita calls to Pentecostal ministry over the past century. This analysis includes only classical Pentecostal denominations (e.g. Assemblies of God, Church of God in Christ, United Pentecostal Church International), and excludes Charismatic movements within Catholic, Anglican, or mainline Protestant traditions.

---

Global Per Capita Vocations to Pentecostal Ministry (1925–2025)​

This table estimates the number of credentialed Pentecostal ministers per million Pentecostal adherents at 10-year intervals. Figures are based on denominational reports, global religious surveys, and academic reconstructions.

Year	Estimated Global Pentecostal Population	Estimated Ministers	Ministers per Million Pentecostals
1925	~1 million	~10,000	~10,000
1935	~2 million	~20,000	~10,000
1945	~5 million	~40,000	~8,000
1955	~10 million	~80,000	~8,000
1965	~30 million	~150,000	~5,000
1975	~70 million	~250,000	~3,571
1985	~120 million	~300,000	~2,500
1995	~200 million	~350,000	~1,750
2005	~300 million	~400,000	~1,333
2015	~450 million	~450,000	~1,000
2025	~600 million	~500,000	~833

Sources:

• Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Database
• Pew Research Center: Global Christianity reports
• Pentecostal Theology
• WesternChurch.net global Pentecostal estimates
• UPCI Statistics

---

Key Trends and Interpretations​

• Explosive Growth: Pentecostalism grew from a fringe movement in the early 20th century to over 600 million adherents by 2025—roughly 25% of all Christians.
• Declining Ministerial Density: While the number of ministers increased, the ratio of ministers to adherents declined sharply due to exponential population growth.
• Decentralised Structure: Many Pentecostal churches operate with flexible leadership models, including lay pastors, evangelists, and itinerant preachers, which complicates direct comparisons with Catholic priesthood.
• Regional Dynamics:
  • Africa and Latin America are now the epicentres of Pentecostal growth.
  • Asia, especially South Korea and the Philippines, shows strong evangelistic expansion.
  • North America remains influential in theology and media, but growth has plateaued.

---

Global Summary (2025)​

• Total Pentecostals: ~600 million
• Credentialed Ministers: ~500,000
• Global Ratio: ~833 ministers per million Pentecostals
• Average Pentecostals per Minister: ~1,200

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Got proof?

and yet Pentecostal and Evangelical are growing at a faster rate in those areas of the world.

I found this interesting and inciteful

Why the Catholic church is ‘hemorrhaging’ priests​

Why is the church “hemorrhaging” priests, to use Pope Francis’s words? I study Catholic history, so I have long considered this question.​

​

Why are there fewer priests?​

The demands of the job are a killer combination in today’s world.​

​

Between strict restrictions on sexuality and the loss of priests’ social status, there are ever fewer seminary students. Consequently, fewer men become priests, particularly in remote parts of the world. In the Amazon region, there is one priest for every 10,000 Catholics.​

​

Responding to this challenge, Pope Francis in 2017 suggested that the Church might allow married men to be ordained. Many Church officials believe the requirement of celibacy is the main reason fewer men are joining the priesthood.​

This will be my Last Post on this particular question. I thought it would be interesting for us all to see how many people are actually ministering in various ways, including preaching within The Catholic Church.

While it is true that ordained priests are the only people who can conduct a full mass, it is also true that permanent deacons and laymen with educational qualifications may act as preachers as well as monastic brothers, all of these may preside over a Communion Service and present a homily and carry out most of The liturgy laid out for a mass with the exception of consecrating the hosts, and the Cup.

Here is a comprehensive and historically grounded estimate of global per capita Catholic ministerial vocations, now expanded to include:

• Ordained priests
• Permanent deacons
• Lay pastoral ministers (authorised and commissioned)
• Religious brothers and sisters (non-priestly but vocationally consecrated)

This broader scope reflects the Church’s evolving understanding of ministry, especially post–Vatican II, where lay and diaconal roles gained formal recognition.

---

Global Per Capita Catholic Ministerial Vocations (1925–2025)​

Year	Global Catholic Population	Total Ministers (Priests + Deacons + Lay Ministers + Religious)	Ministers per Million Catholics
1925	~300 million	~500,000	~1,667
1935	~330 million	~520,000	~1,576
1945	~360 million	~540,000	~1,500
1955	~450 million	~580,000	~1,289
1965	~550 million	~650,000	~1,182
1975	~650 million	~700,000	~1,077
1985	~750 million	~720,000	~960
1995	~950 million	~740,000	~779
2005	~1.1 billion	~760,000	~691
2015	~1.27 billion	~780,000	~614
2025	~1.41 billion	~800,000	~567

---

Composition of Ministerial Vocations (2025 Estimate)​

Category	Estimated Global Count
Ordained Priests	~407,000
Permanent Deacons	~50,000
Lay Pastoral Ministers	~200,000
Religious Brothers/Sisters	~143,000
Total Ministers	~800,000

Sources:

• Vatican Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae
• USCCB Certification Handbook for Ecclesial Ministry
• Australian Catholic Deacons Association
• Catholic Church in Australia: Lay Ministry Guidelines
• NALM 2025 Survey Report

---

Key Observations​

• Lay Ministry Expansion: Post–Vatican II reforms (especially Lumen Gentium and Christifideles Laici) catalysed the rise of lay pastoral ministers, catechists, and liturgical leaders.
• Permanent Diaconate Revival: Restored in 1967, the permanent diaconate has grown steadily, especially in Latin America and North America.
• Religious Life Decline: The number of religious brothers and sisters has declined since the 1960s, though their pastoral and educational contributions remain vital.
• Ministerial Density Decline: Despite growth in lay and diaconal roles, the overall ministerial density per Catholic has declined due to population growth.

 

[stevevw]

I can understand that the early church would come to the realisation pretty quickly that an overseer demanded a lot of time which would make it hard on the wife and children.

They already had enough to manage with many widows who lost their husbands who were either older or were executed for the faith. The disicples were criticised for neglecting widows so leaving wives alone would have been a concern.

Considering that there was also importance on family, bringing up children in the faith it was a big ask. Though women and wives were quite capable of managing the family. But the father was regarded as the head who led the family.

So having the husband and father missing is not good as this was like abandoning the family when Paul said first take care of the family.

Also remembering that an overseer as Paul says was a nobel thing that not many were suited. James or Peter mentions not everyone can be an overseer as it takes a lot.

I guess it comes down to what was the ultimately best way for the overseer to lead, care and protect the church. Setting the highest possible qualification that could most benefit the church and fullfillment of that role.

You either allow the compromise because that is what it is for either the family or church timewise. Or you set the highest standard which will produce the most suited overseers in that all they will do is be an overseer 100% of the time.

Which I think is needed if you consider that caring, teaching, correcting and protecting the church is a full time vocation. Especially with all the issues we have today.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Documented Sources​

1. Spiritual Formation Towards Pentecostal Leadership as Discipleship

• Authors: Jeremy Feller & Christo Lombaard
• Published in: KOERS — Bulletin for Christian Scholarship
• Summary: This study explores how Pentecostal leadership is shaped by spiritual formation and discipleship, noting that leadership models vary widely across contexts and are influenced by post-secular cultural shifts. It highlights tensions between traditional charismatic authority and emerging models of structured discipleship.
• Read the full article (PDF)

Doesn't show the same lack that the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing - or to quote the late pope Francis - "Hemorrhaging Priests"

2. Understanding Pentecostal Church Governance

• Publisher: Number Analytics Blog
• Summary: This guide outlines the diverse governance structures within Pentecostal churches, including apostolic and eldership models. It notes that leadership formation is deeply tied to spiritual experiences and biblical interpretation, which can lead to fluctuations depending on theological emphasis and cultural context.
• Explore the governance models

Doesn't show the same lack that the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing - or to quote the late pope Francis - "Hemorrhaging Priests"

3. Adaptivity of Church Leadership: A Case of Two Pentecostal Churches in Zambia

• Authors: Mulutula Kenneth & Malvern Kanyati
• Published in: International Journal of Fundamental and Multidisciplinary Research
• Summary: This empirical study documents leadership challenges during religious transitions, including constitutional amendments. It reveals gaps between espoused values and actual leadership behaviour, underscoring the adaptive pressures and fluctuating competencies in Pentecostal leadership.
• Access the case study (PDF)

These sources collectively demonstrate that Pentecostal leadership formation is not monolithic. It fluctuates due to theological diversity, cultural pressures, governance models, and adaptive challenges during transitions.

2 churches in Zambia do not reflect the global Pentecostal body

• Explosive Growth: Pentecostalism grew from a fringe movement in the early 20th century to over 600 million adherents by 2025—roughly 25% of all Christians.
• Declining Ministerial Density: While the number of ministers increased, the ratio of ministers to adherents declined sharply due to exponential population growth.
• Decentralised Structure: Many Pentecostal churches operate with flexible leadership models, including lay pastors, evangelists, and itinerant preachers, which complicates direct comparisons with Catholic priesthood.
• Regional Dynamics:
  • Africa and Latin America are now the epicentres of Pentecostal growth.
  • Asia, especially South Korea and the Philippines, shows strong evangelistic expansion.
  • North America remains influential in theology and media, but growth has plateaued.

Sorry - You have basically shown Pentecostal and Evangelical churches are growing so rapidly that they need more ministers - while the Roman Catholic Church is not growing at the same rate and according to the pope "Hemorrhaging Priest"!

Follow up question:

Is pope Francis wrong?

 

[Always in His Presence]

You either allow the compromise because that is what it is for either the family or church timewise. Or you set the highest standard which will produce the most suited overseers in that all they will do is be an overseer 100% of the time.

Which I think is needed if you consider that caring, teaching, correcting and protecting the church is a full time vocation. Especially with all the issues we have today.

Valid thoughts:

Is it your understanding that Priest work non stop? They work from the time they wake up until they go to sleep?

I'd be curious what a typical week looks like to a Priest.

 

[stevevw]

Valid thoughts:

Is it your understanding that Priest work non stop? They work from the time they wake up until they go to sleep?

I'd be curious what a typical week looks like to a Priest.

I think so. Not sure about as soon as they wake up lol. But if there is need there is need.

The thing I noticed with the early church was it seemed a community where everyone pitches in. The overseer/elders could be called to another church who was in need. Or just travelling on missionaries.

Paul mentions the list of responsibilities of an overseer who virtually is shepherding the flock. Which means there pretty weel on call all the time. I could imagine all the everyday problems of a large church of people. Especially if the surrounding culture is a powerful influence which could lure believers away or encroach into the church.

If the members are to live as Christians by the teachings then I would think that this means giving support and counsel to people with marriage difficulties, addictions, family problems, all of the problems people face. As well as constantly ensuring everyone is being supported in times of competing ideologies.

I think it demands pretty much a fulltime job. Remembering that they all pitched in to support the Christian community practically which is now being done by the secular welfare state. From what I understand each church had more than one overseer and sometimes several were needed.

I think the church may have lived fairly seperate from mainstream society like a self supporting community so as to ensure that they were not compromised by the surrounding pagan culture.

But when you consider that the church should be taking care of its own first as pointed out by overlooking the widows .That there are many unaddressed issues within the church and outside as far as the gospel and helping the poor I think theres heaps more to be done and the church is falling behind.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Doesn't show the same lack that the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing - or to quote the late pope Francis - "Hemorrhaging Priests"

Doesn't show the same lack that the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing - or to quote the late pope Francis - "Hemorrhaging Priests"

2 churches in Zambia do not reflect the global Pentecostal body

Sorry - You have basically shown Pentecostal and Evangelical churches are growing so rapidly that they need more ministers - while the Roman Catholic Church is not growing at the same rate and according to the pope "Hemorrhaging Priest"!

Follow up question:

Is pope Francis wrong?

Faithful Catholics acknowledge with both sorrow and hope the challenges presently facing the Church, including the decline in priestly vocations in certain regions—a reality Pope Francis candidly described as a “haemorrhaging” of priests. His words, far from undermining the Church, reflect pastoral realism and call to the Faithful to renewal, not defeat.

It is true that Pentecostal and Evangelical communities in some parts of the world, such as Zambia, are experiencing rapid growth and an urgent demand for ministers. However, this localised expansion does not necessarily reflect the global ecclesial reality, nor does it constitute a theological or sacramental superiority. Growth in numbers alone is not the measure of ecclesial authenticity or divine favour.

The Catholic Church, founded by Christ and sustained by the Holy Spirit, remains universal, apostolic, and sacramental. Her mission is not to expand demographically but to proclaim the fullness of truth, administer the sacraments, and shepherd souls toward eternal life. The priesthood, as participation in the one priesthood of Christ, is not a function to be filled by necessity, but a sacred vocation discerned and conferred through apostolic succession.

To suggest that the Church’s current vocational crisis invalidates her divine constitution or diminishes her mission is to mistake temporal struggle for spiritual failure. The triumphalist tone in such comparisons overlooks the enduring witness of countless priests, religious, and lay faithful who continue to serve with fidelity and joy, even amid adversity.

As for whether Pope Francis is wrong: he is not. He has spoken truthfully about a pastoral concern, not a doctrinal error. His remarks are a lament, not a repudiation of the Church’s identity. They invite us to pray, to discern, and to labour for vocations—not to abandon hope or indulge in schadenfreude.

The Church has weathered storms before. She will do so again, not by worldly metrics, but by grace.