The Sabbath. Stunning admissions?(I have no idea where things goes otherwise)

[BobRyan]

Jesus isn't our Sabbath commander; Paul is.
The Ministration of death, means the 10Cs, is that correct?
Means the 10Cs are abolished.
Can we sin, if 10 Cs are abolished? No. We have the law of Christ. Gal 6.2.
If Sabbath were still an issue; then why is there no mention, past Colossians?
No; you don't have Heb 4:9..

Neither Christ nor Paul says we can downsize one of the TEN.
In fact Paul "every Sabbath" Paul was in the synagogues preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews Acts 18:4

Is 66:23 tells us that long after the cross - for all eternity in the New Earth - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"

Eph 6:1-3 "Honor your father and mother - is the first commandment with a promise" and still applicable to mankind according to Paul

 

[BobRyan]

Haven't you said it's supposed to be teaching from scripture and nothing but scripture.

Amen to the fact that we test all doctrine by the Bible

 

[BobRyan]

If Sabbath is still an issue; then why do I only have an "Ellen" church for Sabbath?

A great many denominations affirm the Bible Sabbath - not just SDAs.

Your OP vid makes its case for Sabbath "sola scriptura" -- are you satisfied to stick to that context/format/basis for discussion?

If so we can have a good discussion on this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

David Pack Leader of the Restored Church of God, a splinter sect of the Worldwide Church of God. The Worldwide Church of God is somewhat related to the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

The whole history is a bit convoluted, but as I best understand it: The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church, while others who rejected her claims founded the "Church of God (Seventh Day)" which is unfortunately a bit of an unwieldy title. Herbert Armstrong was a minister of the Church of God (Seventh Day).

not true as far as I know.

from AI -
"The Church of God (Seventh-day) originated in the 1850s with dedicated followers of Christ in western Michigan. It emerged from a movement that also gave rise to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but distinct in its beliefs and practices. "

Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and organization form in May 20, 1863. Sabbath came to the Adventists attention with the Seventh-day Baptist visitor - Rachel Oaks.

1. No church of God - group was ever part of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
2. I don't know of any group in the 1800's that has the same doctrine as SDAs - except for affirming spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 and Ellen White

He got into some conflicts with leadership and founded his own group, the Worldwide Church of God

World Wide church of God formed in the 1930's and was never SDA so far as I have found

 

[BobRyan]

Now I beg you, brothers and sisters, through the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing

sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.

So far the SDAs on this thread have not introduced any other basis for discussion

 

[BobRyan]

who made Paul an apostle?

God did.

For the purpose of this discussion - we accept all 66 books of the Bible as inspired by God 2 Tim 3:15-16 and profitable for doctrine

 

[JSRG]

not true as far as I know.

from AI -
"The Church of God (Seventh-day) originated in the 1850s with dedicated followers of Christ in western Michigan. It emerged from a movement that also gave rise to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but distinct in its beliefs and practices. "

Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and organization form May 20, 1863

I don't see how that differs from what I said.

"The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church, while others who rejected her claims founded the "Church of God (Seventh Day)" which is unfortunately a bit of an unwieldy title."

The AI you offer says that the Church of God (Seventh Day) "emerged from a movement that also gave rise to the Seventh-Day Adventist Church." Which is essentially what I said.

Then later on Herbert Armstrong, who was a minister in the Church of God (Seventh Day), split off and formed the Worldwide Church of God, which then splintered off into a bunch of smaller groups (including the Restored Church of God, which was the one the guy in the original video was a member of).

This is why I said "The Worldwide Church of God is somewhat related to the Seventh Day Adventist Church." They both trace back to the same 19th century movement, hence why there are various doctrines in common that trace back to their common ancestor, but due to the splits they end up differing on some other notable things.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't see how that differs from what I said.

"The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church, while others who rejected her claims founded the "Church of God (Seventh Day)" which is unfortunately a bit of an unwieldy title."

The Church of God has never been part of the SDA church so there is no split.

 

[JSRG]

The Church of God has never been part of the SDA church so there is no split.

And where did I ever say there was?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And where did I ever say there was?

"The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

 

[JSRG]

"The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Yes, exactly. The Church of God (Seventh Day) did not split off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church. There both came out of a split from an earlier group, with some later forming the Church of God (Seventh Day) and others later founding the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The Church of God (Seventh Day) didn't split off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church because that had not been founded yet, but they split off from the group that would go on to found the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Does this clarify matters?

 

[BobRyan]

David Pack Leader of the Restored Church of God, a splinter sect of the Worldwide Church of God. The Worldwide Church of God is somewhat related to the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The whole history is a bit convoluted, but as I best understand it: The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White;

Church of God and Seventh-day Adventists were never joined so they could never have split

And where did I ever say there was?

??

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, exactly. The Church of God (Seventh Day) did not split off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Indeed.

Neither did the Seventh-day Baptist split from Seventh-day Adventist.

Rather it was a Seventh-day Baptist that influenced Adventists to become Seventh-day Adventist.

There both came out of a split from an earlier group,

Not an earlier denomination but rather the movement across multiple denominations that William Miller started.

It was the Seventh-day Baptists (which existed before even Miller's group) that influenced some Millerite Adventists to take a serious look at the Bible teaching about the Sabbath commandment,

 

[BobRyan]

This is why I said "The Worldwide Church of God is somewhat related to the Seventh Day Adventist Church." They both trace back to the same 19th century movement

I agree that they were both involved with the Millerites of the 1800's

But the two denominations never had any discussions between them about Ellen White as if a difference along those lines had something to do with the founding of their denomination

Your video in your OP makes some strong affirming statement from the Bible about the seventh day Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. Did you want to discuss your video?

 

[Leaf473]

sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.

So far the SDAs on this thread have not introduced any other basis for discussion

Sounds good

Continuing on

...and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment

See how good and how pleasant it is for brothers and sisters to live together in unity! Psalm 133

 

[JSRG]

Your video in your OP makes some strong affirming statement from the Bible about the seventh day Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. Did you want to discuss your video?

Huh? I didn't start the topic.

 

[PatrickTate]

David Pack Leader of the Restored Church of God, a splinter sect of the Worldwide Church of God. The Worldwide Church of God is somewhat related to the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

The whole history is a bit convoluted, but as I best understand it: The "Church of God (Seventh Day)" was formed due to a split of Sabbatarian Adventists on the issue of Ellen G. White; the ones that agreed with her founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church, while others who rejected her claims founded the "Church of God (Seventh Day)" which is unfortunately a bit of an unwieldy title. Herbert Armstrong was a minister of the Church of God (Seventh Day). He got into some conflicts with leadership and founded his own group, the Worldwide Church of God. Eventually he died, as people generally do. New leadership changed the name to Grace Communion International along with some of the doctrines, which prompted a lot of his followers to split off and form a lot of smaller denominations (most with the word "Church of God" somewhere in their title) aiming to better continue his teachings. The Restored Church of God is one of those.

Due to their connection with Seventh Day Adventism, there is notable overlap in beliefs between it and the various Church of God groups, though they also diverge considerably in some areas. More information is fairly well detailed on the Wikipedia page about the groups. The important shared belief here, however, is Saturday Sabbathkeeping.

An interesting note in all of this is that back in the 1980's the Seventh Day Adventists seemed to have a better understanding of the state of the dead than is the case lately. It seems that the massive influx of former WWCG members into the SDA church has resulted in their becoming very dogmatic in their teachings about Soul Sleep.

I would suggest to my fellow former WWCG friends to read or listen to the near death experience accounts of Kevin Zadai Th. D. or Robert Marshall of "Forty Four Hours in Heaven" and then take another look at 2 Corinthians 12 because if we do not have an accurate teaching on what happens when we die it is difficult for us to inspire anybody to give their hearts to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12 :
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[PatrickTate]

I have no idea who David C Pack is or what he teaches but it doesn't matter if God is our Authority.

God wrote and God spoke His Ten Commandments, it is His personal Testimony written by the finger of God, Exo 31;18 which is the Holy Spirit. For me there is no greater Authority than He, even if its not the popular path to follow.


Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The weekly Sabbath is meant to be a blessing Isa 56:2 because man can‘t bless or sanctify themselves Isa 66:17 we need God and God connects the Sabbath to His Creation Exo 20:11 and connects His Sabbath to His re-creation or sanctification Eze 20:12 God said the Sabbath is on the seventh day Exo 20:10 its really a sign of our loyalty Eze 20:20

Jesus condemned those who keep their own law in lieu of obeying God’s commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Jesu said, If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15, the Sabbath was never a suggestion or part of multiple choices for God’s people, the Sabbath is a commandment of God,, both personally written and spoken by the God of the Universe. We keep through our faith, because we trust He knows what’s best for us. Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3

Thank you for this excellent reply to this topic. I was taught about the weekly Sabbath by the Worldwide Church of God and I do find the Sabbath to be a great blessing in my life.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

An interesting note in all of this is that back in the 1980's the Seventh Day Adventists seemed to have a better understanding of the state of the dead than is the case lately. It seems that the massive influx of former WWCG members into the SDA church has resulted in their becoming very dogmatic in their teachings about Soul Sleep.

I would suggest to my fellow former WWCG friends to read or listen to the near death experience accounts of Kevin Zadai Th. D. or Robert Marshall of "Forty Four Hours in Heaven" and then take another look at 2 Corinthians 12 because if we do not have an accurate teaching on what happens when we die it is difficult for us to inspire anybody to give their hearts to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12 :
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This is what SDA's believe in regards to what happens when someone dies, its what Jesus taught.


John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.


Its what the apostles taught too..


1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

When Jesus comes those sleeping in Christ will raise from the dead and meet Him in the air 1 Thess 4:15-17

1 Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do find the Sabbath to be a great blessing in my life.

A big Amen to this!