Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Where have i suggested anything like that? What do you mean by Christians being no different from Islam or Hindiusm? How would you have Christians distinguish themselves from these communities in a way that is different from how Christians of the past did?

Allow me to provide a summary of my previous statements.

The New Testament does not suggest that Christians should seek government power to expand Christianity. According to the text, Jesus did not advise his followers to pursue political authority for this purpose. Repeatedly, Jesus emphasized preaching the gospel as the main directive. He instructed his followers to share the good news throughout the world.

Even when examining sources beyond biblical texts and early Christian tradition, there is no evidence that the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church has ever advised, guided, or commanded Christians to seek governmental power for the purpose of expanding Christianity.

The concept of gaining government power, establish a Christian nation or community to expand Christianity contradicts biblical teachings, traditions, and early church practices. This is a false teaching.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Allow me to provide a summary of my previous statements.

The New Testament does not suggest that Christians should seek government power to expand Christianity. According to the text, Jesus did not advise his followers to pursue political authority for this purpose. Repeatedly, Jesus emphasized preaching the gospel as the main directive. He instructed his followers to share the good news throughout the world.

Okay so you essentially think Christians are a Dhimmi class then who should avoid political power?

Even when examining sources beyond biblical texts and early Christian tradition, there is no evidence that the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church has ever advised, guided, or commanded Christians to seek governmental power for the purpose of expanding Christianity.

So no Christian has ever been called to be a political leader?

The concept of gaining government power, establish a Christian nation or community to expand Christianity contradicts biblical teachings, traditions, and early church practices. This is a false teaching.

Where in the bible are we told to not have a Christian nation?

 

[A New Dawn]

Allow me to provide a summary of my previous statements.

The New Testament does not suggest that Christians should seek government power to expand Christianity. According to the text, Jesus did not advise his followers to pursue political authority for this purpose. Repeatedly, Jesus emphasized preaching the gospel as the main directive. He instructed his followers to share the good news throughout the world.

Even when examining sources beyond biblical texts and early Christian tradition, there is no evidence that the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church has ever advised, guided, or commanded Christians to seek governmental power for the purpose of expanding Christianity.

The concept of gaining government power, establish a Christian nation or community to expand Christianity contradicts biblical teachings, traditions, and early church practices. This is a false teaching.

What you say can be borne out in the fact that Jesus did not come as a political leader to liberate the Jews from their captivity, but as the sacrificial lamb to save our spiritual souls. Jesus furthermore says His peace is not the peace the world offers and is right up front that we will be persecuted as He was.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What you say can be borne out in the fact that Jesus did not come as a political leader to liberate the Jews from their captivity, but as the sacrificial lamb to save our spiritual souls. Jesus furthermore says His peace is not the peace the world offers and is right up front that we will be persecuted as He was.

Are all Christians called to this subservient role? A Christian cannot be someone in power?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Where in the bible are we told to not have a Christian nation?

Then Jesus said unto His disciples, “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you" John 15:19

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Then Jesus said unto His disciples, “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you" John 15:19

So let me present you with a hypothetical. Imagine a country where there is a small percentage of Christians. Now these Christians over many generations manage to convert most of the Nation to the faith.

What then should happen to the Nation? Should it be dissolved? Should said Christian majority still have no say in how thr country operates?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So let me present you with a hypothetical. Imagine a country where there is a small percentage of Christians. Now these Christians over many generations manage to convert most of the Nation to the faith.

What then should happen to the Nation? Should it be dissolved? Should said Christian majority still have no say in how thr country operates?

Well, Jesus had an answer for your hypothetical. He said “ My kingdom is not of this world”.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, Jesus had an answer for your hypothetical. He said “ My kingdom is not of this world”.

Quoting our Lord doesn't address what we are specifically to do. Can you please address what I asked? What should happen to said nation? What should thr Christians of said nation do? Should they be like Dhimmis underneath a non-Christian ruling class? Should they dissolve the nation? What exactly should they do?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Quoting our Lord doesn't address what we are specifically to do. Can you please address what I asked? What should happen to said nation? What should thr Christians of said nation do? Should they be like Dhimmis underneath a non-Christian ruling class? Should they dissolve the nation? What exactly should they do?

Jesus addressed the issue of living under non-Christian Roman rulers. When asked by the Pharisees if they should pay taxes to Caesar, he answered, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s..”

I've had similar discussions with you before, and each time, instead of referencing scripture, early church teaching, or creeds, you respond with hypothetical scenarios.

I am a born-again Christian and focus solely on Biblical texts, though I respect Catholic and Orthodox Christian traditions that include additional texts and doctrines. However, you haven't provided support for your claims from church teachings, tradition, or doctrine.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Jesus addressed the issue of living under non-Christian Roman rulers. When asked by the Pharisees if they should pay taxes to Caesar, he answered, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s..”

I've had similar discussions with you before, and each time, instead of referencing scripture, early church teaching, or creeds, you respond with hypothetical scenarios.

I am a born-again Christian and focus solely on Biblical texts, though I respect Catholic and Orthodox Christian traditions that include additional texts and doctrines. However, you haven't provided support for your claims from church teachings, tradition, or doctrine.

Hypotheticals test our ideas and their resilience and thr inability to answer indicates you haven't thought out your worldview. But I can point to historic examples. Do you think it would have been worse for the Armenians if they had sovereignty over themselves instead of being subjects of the Ottomans? Do you think modern Armenia should dissolve itself and the Church relinquish all influence it has on Armenian society? Is it better than 120000 Armenians were forced out of Ngorno Kharbach?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Hypotheticals test our ideas and their resilience and thr inability to answer indicates you haven't thought out your worldview. But I can point to historic examples. Do you think it would have been worse for the Armenians if they had sovereignty over themselves instead of being subjects of the Ottomans? Do you think modern Armenia should dissolve itself and the Church relinquish all influence it has on Armenian society?

Perhaps that is the difference between you and me. The worldview entirely belongs to the Prince of the world, whereas the commandments of God apply to those who are part of the body of Christ.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Perhaps that is the difference between you and me. The worldview entirely belongs to the Prince of the world, whereas the commandments of God apply to those who are part of the body of Christ.

Well no. I'm just asking you to apply your beliefs practically. Do you think the Armenian Genocide was better than Armenians having control over themselves? Why do you shy away from on the ground reality and prefer idealistic notions?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Well no. I'm just asking you to apply your beliefs practically. Do you think the Armenian Genocide was better than Armenians having control over themselves? Why do you shy away from on the ground reality and prefer idealistic notions?

here is how i apply my belief in real world

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

here is how i apply my belief in real world

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You haven't addressed anything I've said. A quote doesn't answer what shouldnhave been done. But I don't think people of your persuasion can answer this directly because you are ashamed of where your opinions lead. Ultimately you would have had to tell the Armenians that it is better they were slaughtered than have control or power over themselves and I don't believe we have to be Dhimmis or a perpetual self class as Christians.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

What you say can be borne out in the fact that Jesus did not come as a political leader to liberate the Jews from their captivity, but as the sacrificial lamb to save our spiritual souls. Jesus furthermore says His peace is not the peace the world offers and is right up front that we will be persecuted as He was.

I concur with your statement. Bible does not prohibit Christians from seeking higher government office or political positions. Therefore, if individuals possess the necessary talent and skills, or feel called to serve as public officials to improve society, they should be encouraged to do so. In my view, it is preferable to have leaders who fear God rather than those who doesn’t.

Over the past 2,000 years, Christian involvement in politics has often led to church corruption rather than societal improvement. Modern discussions about Christian nations or Christian control tend to impose Christianity on society, which contradicts biblical principles and Jesus' teachings.

The individual we are discussing appears to believe that improving Christian society or expanding Christianity requires government involvement. Not once, not even once he point to scripture or referred to Jesus when bring people to Christ, but how much Christianity can benefit from a “ Christian government” . These are pure false teaching.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I concur with your statement. Bible does not prohibit Christians from seeking higher government office or political positions. Therefore, if individuals possess the necessary talent and skills, or feel called to serve as public officials to improve society, they should be encouraged to do so. In my view, it is preferable to have leaders who fear God rather than those who doesn’t.

Over the past 2,000 years, Christian involvement in politics has often led to church corruption rather than societal improvement. Modern discussions about Christian nations or Christian control tend to impose Christianity on society, which contradicts biblical principles and Jesus' teachings.

The individual we are discussing appears to believe that improving Christian society or expanding Christianity requires government involvement. Not once, not even once he point to scripture or referred to Jesus when bring people to Christ, but how much Christianity can benefit from a “ Christian government” . These are pure false teaching.

Society was better under Pagan or Islamic control? Can you explain to me why those are preferable to Christian principalities?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You haven't addressed anything I've said. A quote doesn't answer what shouldnhave been done. But I don't think people of your persuasion can answer this directly because you are ashamed of where your opinions lead. Ultimately you would have had to tell the Armenians that it is better they were slaughtered than have control or power over themselves and I don't believe we have to be Dhimmis or a perpetual self class as Christians.

Christians experiencing suffering and persecution, Jesus told them to turn the other cheek and pray for those who persecute them.

Do you think you have better advise then Jesus ?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Society was better under Pagan or Islamic control? Can you explain to me why those are preferable to Christian principalities?

When Jesus heard it, He said unto them, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Those pagan and the Muslim are the reason Jesus came to the world.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

When Jesus heard it, He said unto them, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Those pagan and the Muslim are the reason Jesus came to the world.

And you would have preferred if Pagans remained dominant within Western society and Christianity failed to convert the masses? What about Pagan or Islamic rule makes it preferable to Christian rule?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christians experiencing suffering and persecution, Jesus told them to turn the other cheek and pray for those who persecute them.

Do you think you have better advise then Jesus ?

I don't deny we are called to suffer but are we also called to allow our brothers and sisters to be slaughtered at the whims of non Christians? Are you advocating pacifism?