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Through the lens of humanity

jasperr

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.

Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?

Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?
 

AV1611VET

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.

Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?

Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?

It's extremely irritating when I get sand in my eyes, let alone the entire universe! :eek:
 
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Ophiolite

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.
I am unfamiliar with the source of the comment, but the idea is certainly familiar to me, though I have no idea where I picked it up. (I doubt it occured to me spontaneously.) It is accurate to say that a portion of the universe is looking at the whole universe, but that is rather different from the wording you have reported. That hints at some presence for which we would constitute a conduit for our observations, like an ant contributing to the hive mind, individuals being analagous to neurons in a brain. A little too New Age for me. (I don't think that is what you were suggesting, its just my take on the wording.)
Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?
I don't understand this. Did you mean:
  • It is just a whimsical observation with no testable means to verify it.
  • It is just a whimsical observation with no means of predicting/determining consequenses if it is true.
  • Something else.
Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?
Given my naturalistic world view I think the observation is of primary importance. It is stunning that conscious, (allegedly) intelligent beings could arise and be able to acquire detailed knowledge of their origins and much besides. Since we do not know how common life may be in the universe it behoves us to protect and nurture the one instance we currently know of. Unfortunately we have demonstrated only limited competence thus far. I would grade us C+, could try harder.
 
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dlamberth

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.

Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?

Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?
That's a pretty common perspective among those who consciously experience the Oneness of the Universe. Another way of looking at it is that we are the universe experiencing itself. It's all about consciousness. And in the way of consciousness, it can't be tested.
 
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jasperr

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I am unfamiliar with the source of the comment, but the idea is certainly familiar to me, though I have no idea where I picked it up. (I doubt it occured to me spontaneously.) It is accurate to say that a portion of the universe is looking at the whole universe, but that is rather different from the wording you have reported. That hints at some presence for which we would constitute a conduit for our observations, like an ant contributing to the hive mind, individuals being analagous to neurons in a brain. A little too New Age for me. (I don't think that is what you were suggesting, its just my take on the wording.)

I don't understand this. Did you mean:
  • It is just a whimsical observation with no testable means to verify it.
  • It is just a whimsical observation with no means of predicting/determining consequenses if it is true.
  • Something else.

Given my naturalistic world view I think the observation is of primary importance. It is stunning that conscious, (allegedly) intelligent beings could arise and be able to acquire detailed knowledge of their origins and much besides. Since we do not know how common life may be in the universe it behoves us to protect and nurture the one instance we currently know of. Unfortunately we have demonstrated only limited competence thus far. I would grade us C+, could try harder.
Oops ,I meant to say John Archibald Wheeler instead of Mortimer Wheeler (who was an archaelogist)
His quote that I have now "dug up" is "
"we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself"


That is a long piece that I have not gone through or authenticated yet and I suspect it may be the only instance ,if correct of him saying that in those words.

You seem to be right about the "New Ageism" of the idea as the only other quote I found along those lines belongs to Alan Watts whom I expect you may be familiar with

Rexamining my post I see it was clunky english but your 2nd interpretation was what I was trying to convey )
 
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Larniavc

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.

Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?

Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?
It is amazing how something as impressive as consciousness has developed from the fundamental nature of existence.
 
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jasperr

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It is amazing how something as impressive as consciousness has developed from the fundamental nature of existence.
Yes ,almost like "A+++ .Keep up the good work"

There is "trouble in paradise" though as we can see from the seemingly grotesque and demoralising outcomes that arise as biological systems fight for their place in the sun.
 
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AV1611VET

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There is "trouble in paradise" though as we can see from the seemingly grotesque and demoralising outcomes that arise as biological systems fight for their place in the sun.

Don't they call it "fight or flight" or "survival of the fittest" or "something like that"?
 
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essentialsaltes

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"we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself"

Unless one denies being a part of the universe, I think one would have to recognize it as a true statement.

I mean, great for a deep-thought-in-the-shower, but I don't know why it would be cause for comment or questioning.
 
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public hermit

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"we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself"

I am reminded of the ancient Greek idea that humans are a "microcosm" in the sense of a representation of the whole cosmos. That's a step further than being a part or "patch" of the universe. I can't imagine how the prior idea could be tested or validated.

That being said, it is amazing that we can self-reflect. Surely, there are various aspects of that ability that can be tested. And, it's also interesting that many spiritual approaches try to negate, or at least reign in, the "ego." It's as if our ability to self-reflect goes off the rails, descending into self-centeredness and its attending consequences, and so meditative and contemplative practices have been developed to correct that (often with different attending metaphysical pictures, but the practices are surprisingly similar in salient ways, e.g., stillness, suspension of imagination and memory, and silence). Do meditative and contemplative practices give one a different (advantageous?) perception or awareness of one's place in the whole? Maybe something like that can be studied.

In general, I think a statement like that has practical value in helping us grasp a more accurate perception of this great mystery of life. Awe is a good thing, I think. A statement like that can generate awe, curiosity, and joy.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think it may have been Mortimer Wheeler who suggested that when we look at the universe it is the universe which is looking at itself through our eyes.

Is this just a whimsical observation with no testable consequenses as to its veracity?

Can anything more be said around that observation or is it just a "take it or leave it" statement ?

It's a current fad that seems to be going around like a meme ---- "the universe is conscious" and that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing that some people acclimate to who want to think in metaphysically laced spiritual terms but don't want to subscribe to biblical theology.

Personally, I don't go in for pantheism any more than I do the idea of geo-centrism.
 
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dlamberth

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It's a current fad that seems to be going around like a meme ---- "the universe is conscious" and that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing that some people acclimate to who want to think in metaphysically laced spiritual terms but don't want to subscribe to biblical theology.

Personally, I don't go in for pantheism.

It's more of a Panentheist perspective.
Rather than a "fad", I'd suggest it's a change in conscious awareness.
I'm totally dialed in as it's how I experience life well as the presence of God through out the reach of the Cosmos.
I guess another way of saying it is that it's my reality in life.
I feel its all about consciousness so much so that I believe it's consciousness that's evolving through the different life forms.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's more of a Panentheist perspective.
Rather than a "fad", I'd suggest it's a change in conscious awareness.
I'm totally dialed in as it's how I experience life well as the presence of God through out the reach of the Cosmos.
I guess another way of saying it is that it's my reality in life.
I feel its all about consciousness so much so that I believe it's consciousness that's evolving through the different life forms.

Ok. If that's your thing, then that'll be your thing. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a skeptic to go either pan or pan-en.
 
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BCP1928

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It's a current fad that seems to be going around like a meme ---- "the universe is conscious" and that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing that some people acclimate to who want to think in metaphysically laced spiritual terms but don't want to subscribe to biblical theology.
There are plenty of ways of doing it besides that which aren't as silly and which people have been embracing for thousands of years. I don't think that is a very convincing reason.
 
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dlamberth

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Ok. If that's your thing, then that'll be your thing. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a skeptic to go either pan or pan-en.
I get that. I'm only providing a different perspective is all.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There are plenty of ways of doing it besides that which aren't as silly and which people have been embracing for thousands of years. I don't think that is a very convincing reason.

There are plenty of ways, but for myself, where some sort of meaning might emerge in the midst of the cosmic cacophony, it comes either through the prism of History or not at all. In fact, I don't have a mystical bone in my entire body when it comes to religion, and I'm too critically oriented to see or feel it any other way. If others "feel" their way into panentheism or whatnot, then so be it. I don't have a truck with them for what they think they feel (as long as they don't get political with it).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I get that. I'm only providing a different perspective is all.

I know, and I get that. But for me, it's Jesus or bust. Period. It's just me being the realist that I have always been. I prefer science be seen as mostly separate from religion.
 
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BCP1928

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There are plenty of ways, but for myself, where some sort of meaning might emerge in the midst of the cosmic cacophony, it comes either through the prism of History or not at all. In fact, I don't have a mystical bone in my entire body when it comes to religion, and I'm too critically oriented to see or feel it any other way. If others "feel" their way into panentheism or whatnot, then so be it. I don't have a truck with them for what they think they feel (as long as they don't get political with it).
I thought you were talking about biblical theology, not history.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I thought you were talking about biblical theology, not history.

Nope. I was speaking in the 3rd person about what I think is a meme for pantheistic or panentheistic tendencies.
 
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BCP1928

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Nope. I was speaking in the 3rd person about what I think is a meme for pantheistic or panentheistic tendencies.
Pardon me, I just would hate anyone to slide off the edge into "...trying to deny God's promise in the Bible of punishment for their wicked lifestyles" which we hear so much of in these forums. ;)
 
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