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Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Leaf473

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If one takes issue with the word "pretend" above, how does one become as under the condemnation of the law, but not actually be?

A spiritual song from 1 Peter 1 In him, though now you don’t see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory
 
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Leaf473

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The proposition en used in Romans 3:19 literally translates to in. That really changes nothing regarding Paul’s condemnation of the law.

All that falsely teach that the Christian are still subject to the law. I’ve seen a few around here.
Right, Romans 3:19 uses a different preposition and adds a definite article

They received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true Acts 17
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It didn’t mean that Paul followed the law either.
You're free to believe Paul was advocating for people to be sinners Rom 7:7 and dishonor God Rom 7:21-23 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8, but its not my belief of what Paul was teaching or advocating. He said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 as it is mans all Ecc 12:13-14 and the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14

Paul spoke of his struggle with sin (walking in the flesh vs the Spirit) but he never advocated to give into the flesh (sin) i.e. breaking God's laws 1 John 3:4 James 2:11
 
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Hentenza

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You're free to believe Paul was advocating for people to be sinners Rom 7:7 and dishonor God Rom 7:21-23 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8, but its not my belief of what Paul was teaching or advocating. He said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 as it is mans all Ecc 12:13-14 and the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14
Paul never advocated for people to be sinners since Paul always advocated for walking in the Spirit. You are the one that follows the law for salvation. Good luck with that.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Obedience to God's Law is a result of our love 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and devotion to God and a consequence of our salvation Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 , not a means to it.

Disobedience is rebellion, sin and unbelief Heb 3:7-19

Its a matter of who we will yield ourselves servants to.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
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HIM

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Who in their right mind would want to be under the condemnation of the law?

All that falsely teach that the Christian are still subject to the law. I’ve seen a few around here.
You say a lot about others. In this case you are wrong. No one teaches as you say in regard to Leaf's comment
 
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HIM

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Paul never advocated for people to be sinners since Paul always advocated for walking in the Spirit. You are the one that follows the law for salvation. Good luck with that.
No she doesn't. Why not stop making comments about posters and just speak on what is being said without making it personal?
 
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Hentenza

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Like I said, good luck with following the law. The yoke if the law is hard and a heavy burden but His yolk is easy and His burden light. Come to Jesus rest.

“At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Hentenza

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No she doesn't. Why not stop making comments about posters and just speak on what is being said without making it personal?
Yes she does.

Likewise. I have a plethora of posts in the thread. You are welcomed to address any of them.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The yoke Jesus was speaking about was the yoke of sin- that is the yoke of bondage

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In God's rest, there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments, just peace

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

God's law that we are to keep because we love Him is not burdensome

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

but brings blessings and reconciliation

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
 
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Leaf473

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These are the commandments that the LORD gave to Moses for the Israelites on Mount Sinai Leviticus 27

There are a whole lot of commandments that we don't keep. At least, we don't keep them to the letter. Amen to keeping the principle of them :thumbsup:

I have hidden your word in my heart
So I won't sin against you
Psalm 119
 
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Hentenza

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The yoke Jesus was speaking about was the yoke of sin- that is the yoke of bondage
The yoke of sin is defined by the law and yes, it is the yoke of bondage.
Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In God's rest, there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments, just peace

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

God's law that we are to keep because we love Him is not burdensome

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

but brings blessings and reconciliation

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
We have already talked about every single one of you verse minings. Nothing here that proves that the Christian is under bondage by the yolk of the law.
 
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HIM

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Like I said, good luck with following the law. The yoke if the law is hard and a heavy burden but His yolk is easy and His burden light. Come to Jesus rest.

“At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
For a Christian It is no longer I but Christ. The Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. This faith says not in our heart, who shall bring Christ down from the heaven or up from the deep. But what says it? It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the faith in which we preach. The faith that establishes the Law and the Just live by. For we who have been baptized into have put on Christ. We are all one in Christ and heirs according to the promised and live through and by Him.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The law is not the yoke of bondage, the law if we are keeping it through His Spirit John 14:15-18, frees us from sin, why its called the law of liberty James 2:11-12

The law is not the issue, it is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 the issue is sin, breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7

Jesus is trying to free us from the yoke of sin which is bondage Rom 6:16, but sadly some people prefer to stay in darkness (sin) than coming to Jesus to give Him our sins John 3:19-21 so we can confess and forsake them Pro 28:13 which means turn from sin, submitting to Him leaving the old man behind walking in newness in Him.
 
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Hentenza

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For a Christian It is no longer I but Christ. The Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. This faith says not in our heart, who shall bring Christ down from the heaven or up from the deep. But what says it? It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the faith in which we preach. The faith that establishes the Law and the Just live by. For we who have been baptized into have put on Christ. We are all one in Christ and heirs according to the promised and live through and by Him.
So then, as Paul teaches, live in the Spirit not in the law. Faith does not established the law. In fact, the law was never of faith which is why as Christians we are saved by the grace of God through faith and not by works. The Christian has been born again and their sins washed away by the blood of Christ. The Just live by faith not by the law.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Faith does not established the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Its really common sense. If we love Jesus would we do what He asks or not do.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
 
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Hentenza

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The law is not the yoke of bondage,
Yes it is. Paul tells us so.

“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Hentenza

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Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Its really common sense. If we love Jesus would we do what He asks or not do.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Which law did we establish? Paul tells you.

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes it is common sense if you take verses in isolation. Man is justified by faith APART from the law. It does not get any clearer.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes it is. Paul tells us so.

“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
In context, Paul is correcting that the Jews were trying to force new Gentile converts to getting circumcised in order to hear the gospel Gal 2:3 and for salvation Acts 15:1 as they were teaching all they had to do is get circumcised in order to be saved apart from Christ.

We also need to understand the role of circumcision, it was never meant to save anyone, it was the OT sign of God separating His people from everyone else.

Only His people had the cure for sin.

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

So if a Gentile sinned, which they could do anywhere, the only way to get access to the OT cure of animal sacrifices in the temple was to be circumcised

Exo 12:43 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it.
Exo 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

Jesus at the Cross took away this enmity for the OT cure for sin that the Jews were trying to say under-which doing without Christ would have to make animal sacrifices for sin, but that would make Christ's death in vain.


Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The Ten Commandments is the description of sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Rom 7:7

Why Paul contrasted circumcision with the commandments of God

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The whole law Paul was referring to was back under the old law of sacrifice of animals for sins, when Jesus in the NT is our Passover Lamb. 1 Cor 5:7 and we can go to Him when we confess and repent which means being sorry and having a change of direction 1 John 1:9

Sin is the same as it was in the OT, transgressing God's laws 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Rom 7:7 we have a much better cure in the NT, the blood of Jesus, but He never came to save us in our sins Heb 10:26-30- He came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 we need a conversion.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Which law did we establish? Paul tells you.

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes it is common sense if you take verses in isolation. Man is justified by faith APART from the law. It does not get any clearer.

Perhaps for some people faith leads to worshipping other gods, using His holy name in vain, bowing to false images, breaking His holy Sabbath day, not honoring our father and mother, murdering, stealing, committing adultery, lying and coveting, but I do not think thats what Paul had in mind when He said righteousness is by faith and faith does not void the law but establishes, but I guess we will all find out at His soon return. The more people who are set in their decisions Rev 22:11 the sooner Jesus will come back.

I will just once again agree to disagree.
 
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