Would Trump defend Australia if we were attacked? We HAD a big purchase deal worked out... but....

[Kathleen30]

That last bit "Relying on the wealth of it’s minerals whilst allowing much of it industry and much experience to disappear and fly off overseas" is called trade. AKA globalisation. AKA trust with friendly neighbours.

Has any country ever been able to reverse the trend of economic modernisation? I'm no economist or historian - but it seems to go:-

1. peasant farmers to industrial revolution. (Which is the industrialisation of both land and production.)
2. manufacturing
3. growth in wealth and productivity
4. shift to a modern services and information and innovation economy as the manufacturing gets outsourced to developing countries with cheaper labour, salaries, and exchange rates

Australia had our experiment with tariffs. We got our fingers burnt back in the 1970's trying to defend a domestic electronics industry. We got colour TV a decade after everyone else and they were double the price!

Adam Smith recommended against tariffs in his "Wealth of nations". (Again - I'm no economist - I've heard this recently - not read it myself.)

I'm betting that if it's between a man diagnosed as a Malignant Narcissist by over 230 experts - and Adam Smith - I'm picking Adam Smith.

Trump defies all the normal 'laws' of a modern economy. He uses tariffs as a bartering tool in international diplomacy - when most nations tried to use other things and set up a rules based order in the WTC. He has even been accused of rigging the stock market by letting friends know before big announcements on relaxing tariffs - which saw big trade bets just BEFORE he announced a 90 day reprieve on tariffs.

Why are you guys allowing this? It's annoying all your allies - and it seems the President has nerfed the normal democratic protocols of CONGRESS being in charge of tariffs. When and why did that change? Why are you gradually allowing a President to become a King - and soak up all the powers - and judge international affairs by how well they've dished out his need for narcissistic supply and flattering his enormously insecure ego?

Eclipse when thinking upon President Trump and the experts. Well he keeps on defying the experts and proving them wrong. Their economy is booming and inflation be no more. You may call him narcissistic or a king if you so choose. But the reality seems to me that he be doing everything the American people voted for him to do. At least the ones that voted for him.

Eclipse as to the AkA and the globalisation of friendly neighbours. Well charity firstly begins at home. How much of Australia really belongs to Australia or Australian's anymore ? As to the Australia in in the 70’s I guess when you had utopian dreamers like prime minister Goth Whitlam and globalists like prime minister Malcom Fraser running the show it wasn’t so much fun living in the Australia economically in the 70’s. You ask why you guys are allowing this. You say it’s annoying. Well me not one of those peoples up yonder. I be down under as you Maybe if little ambassador Kevin would have kept his mouth shut on what he thought of president Trump whilst he was out of office. Then Australia’s relationship might be some healthier. But I guess he went with the experts that President Trump would never again see White House status. A lesson to be learned from listening to all the so called experts I guess. Eclipse I do send greetings to us all here in down under land : )

 

[eclipsenow]

Eclipse when thinking upon President Trump and the experts. Well he keeps on defying the experts and proving them wrong. Their economy is booming and inflation be no more. You may call him narcissistic or a king if you so choose. But the reality seems to me that he be doing everything the American people voted for him to do.

With what evidence do you make these bizarre assertions? Manufacturing industry in green tech was FLOODING in under Biden's IRA - a big carrot enticing manufacturing back? EG: By 2030 America would have been manufacturing so many batteries that they could have (hypothetically) powered every new car as a 100% EV bought in the USA!

These batteries will however be split through different sectors - also - businesses don't know WHAT to invest in or do from day to day because of Trump's chaotic and ever changing tariffs.

I'm not sure what you are asking about? We are an interdependent country like most in the modern world. Human beings are social creates - and being a mature adult is not about independence like some lone wolf - but appropriate empowered interdependence. Adam Smith explained trade in similar terms - that we all get richer when we trade.

SURE - if there's even a hint of geopolitical concerns about trusting the supply lines - I say subsidise or even NATIONALISE the thing!
But generally speaking, democracies get along - and trade according to the WTO - and we all get a bit wealthier under this system. I'm a greenie and would LOVE to see faster action on climate, less trading of fossil fuels, etc. But generally - although not perfect - although often corrupted by this or that lobby group or agenda - generally speaking the system sort of works.

Until Trump.

Maybe if little ambassador Kevin would have kept his mouth shut on what he thought of president Trump whilst he was out of office.

Nope. I'm with Malcolm Turnbull. One has to stand up to a bully. Trump sees himself as the 'big daddy' of the world - and is using tariffs to make sure every world leader flies over to 'kiss the ring'. They're really just giving him "Narcissistic Supply" - feeding his psychological disorder. He doesn't have friends - he has what psychiatrists call "Flying Monkey's" - those who serve the wicked witch! That's his team of "yes" men and women gathering around and applauding everything he says.

Even if Trump suddenly dies of a heart attack - the fact that America elected him repeatedly - and knowingly - means they have changed. Until such time as there is a profound cultural shift that disses crazy tinfoil hat stuff and respects the REALITY of climate change, Covid, long-term security arrangements, etc, Australia should trade with more reliable partners. And that also includes mutual defence pacts.

And after thinking about it deeply - I'm not sure we should join America if they defend Taiwan. I hate that China wants Taiwan. I hate that a democracy could fall! But unlike Putin - who has repeatedly stated he dreams of restoring the old USSR - China might actually stop with Taiwan. And with Trump being so 'America first' and 'no more overseas wars' - I wonder if China will mistake that for a green light to GO on Taiwan?

I certainly don't want a war with China - but feel we should continue to support Ukraine against the march across Europe.

 

[Bradskii]

Whitlam was a Goth?

 

[Kathleen30]

Whitlam was a Goth?

Whitlam was a Gough

 

[Kathleen30]

With what evidence do you make these bizarre assertions? Manufacturing industry in green tech was FLOODING in under Biden's IRA - a big carrot enticing manufacturing back? EG: By 2030 America would have been manufacturing so many batteries that they could have (hypothetically) powered every new car as a 100% EV bought in the USA!

These batteries will however be split through different sectors - also - businesses don't know WHAT to invest in or do from day to day because of Trump's chaotic and ever changing tariffs.

I'm not sure what you are asking about? We are an interdependent country like most in the modern world. Human beings are social creates - and being a mature adult is not about independence like some lone wolf - but appropriate empowered interdependence. Adam Smith explained trade in similar terms - that we all get richer when we trade.

SURE - if there's even a hint of geopolitical concerns about trusting the supply lines - I say subsidise or even NATIONALISE the thing!
But generally speaking, democracies get along - and trade according to the WTO - and we all get a bit wealthier under this system. I'm a greenie and would LOVE to see faster action on climate, less trading of fossil fuels, etc. But generally - although not perfect - although often corrupted by this or that lobby group or agenda - generally speaking the system sort of works.

Until Trump.



Nope. I'm with Malcolm Turnbull. One has to stand up to a bully. Trump sees himself as the 'big daddy' of the world - and is using tariffs to make sure every world leader flies over to 'kiss the ring'. They're really just giving him "Narcissistic Supply" - feeding his psychological disorder. He doesn't have friends - he has what psychiatrists call "Flying Monkey's" - those who serve the wicked witch! That's his team of "yes" men and women gathering around and applauding everything he says.

Even if Trump suddenly dies of a heart attack - the fact that America elected him repeatedly - and knowingly - means they have changed. Until such time as there is a profound cultural shift that disses crazy tinfoil hat stuff and respects the REALITY of climate change, Covid, long-term security arrangements, etc, Australia should trade with more reliable partners. And that also includes mutual defence pacts.

And after thinking about it deeply - I'm not sure we should join America if they defend Taiwan. I hate that China wants Taiwan. I hate that a democracy could fall! But unlike Putin - who has repeatedly stated he dreams of restoring the old USSR - China might actually stop with Taiwan. And with Trump being so 'America first' and 'no more overseas wars' - I wonder if China will mistake that for a green light to GO on Taiwan?

I certainly don't want a war with China - but feel we should continue to support Ukraine against the march across Europe.

You ask from where I make these bizarre assertions ? You then mention Biden’s green tech miracle flooding the viecle

With what evidence do you make these bizarre assertions? Manufacturing industry in green tech was FLOODING in under Biden's IRA - a big carrot enticing manufacturing back? EG: By 2030 America would have been manufacturing so many batteries that they could have (hypothetically) powered every new car as a 100% EV bought in the USA!

These batteries will however be split through different sectors - also - businesses don't know WHAT to invest in or do from day to day because of Trump's chaotic and ever changing tariffs.

I'm not sure what you are asking about? We are an interdependent country like most in the modern world. Human beings are social creates - and being a mature adult is not about independence like some lone wolf - but appropriate empowered interdependence. Adam Smith explained trade in similar terms - that we all get richer when we trade.

SURE - if there's even a hint of geopolitical concerns about trusting the supply lines - I say subsidise or even NATIONALISE the thing!
But generally speaking, democracies get along - and trade according to the WTO - and we all get a bit wealthier under this system. I'm a greenie and would LOVE to see faster action on climate, less trading of fossil fuels, etc. But generally - although not perfect - although often corrupted by this or that lobby group or agenda - generally speaking the system sort of works.

Until Trump.



Nope. I'm with Malcolm Turnbull. One has to stand up to a bully. Trump sees himself as the 'big daddy' of the world - and is using tariffs to make sure every world leader flies over to 'kiss the ring'. They're really just giving him "Narcissistic Supply" - feeding his psychological disorder. He doesn't have friends - he has what psychiatrists call "Flying Monkey's" - those who serve the wicked witch! That's his team of "yes" men and women gathering around and applauding everything he says.

Even if Trump suddenly dies of a heart attack - the fact that America elected him repeatedly - and knowingly - means they have changed. Until such time as there is a profound cultural shift that disses crazy tinfoil hat stuff and respects the REALITY of climate change, Covid, long-term security arrangements, etc, Australia should trade with more reliable partners. And that also includes mutual defence pacts.

And after thinking about it deeply - I'm not sure we should join America if they defend Taiwan. I hate that China wants Taiwan. I hate that a democracy could fall! But unlike Putin - who has repeatedly stated he dreams of restoring the old USSR - China might actually stop with Taiwan. And with Trump being so 'America first' and 'no more overseas wars' - I wonder if China will mistake that for a green light to GO on Taiwan?

Eclipse you state from what evidence do I make these bizarre claims ??? Well Eclipse perhaps you should seek closer to home in Australia on that matter. Where you actually have a kingship . You know like the king of the British commonwealth and maybe leave it there than following the mere mindless assumptions of mad hatters thinking that president Trump would ever want to be a king. Yes leave those thoughts where they belong. And that being In ga ga land . That’s all I say.

Eclipse you then mention Biden’s green tech industry pouring in with the possibility of having every vehicle powered by battery by 2030. Perhaps a persons choice what they desire would have been a better option. I just luv the feel of a gear stick at full throttle and the reliability of juice injected power to hit the spot namely with what is know as fuel to get me from A to B. When thinking upon battery driven cars they have their place . But to have the entire American economy run by battery powered vehicles by 2030 would be an impossibility. Considering the infrastructure required for such a endeavour with charging stations and how long it takes to recharge a vehicle. And of course there was the reliability of the very few charging stations that they did complete. Quite a number failed to deliver what they claimed . If the policy had been followed to completion and had not been changed by the present government . Than the American economy would have ceased to function.

As to trade. Well there is nothing wrong with trade within itself. But at the same time you don’t give up your essential industries Now Eclipse where is the Australian car manufacturing industry today. Gone forever it seems. Ford Australia and Holden be no more . BHP is no longer Australian owned but majority foreign owned. A portion of our waterways and dams are foreign owned such as the Murray Darling basin. And even our good old Commo bank now be foreign owned that’s all I say when thinking upon trade and ownership and sovereignty of one’s own nation . So you be a admirer of the Malcom Turnbull. Ok. Malcom’s dislike of Trump is well known. And you also claim that President Trump be mentally ill too. On the other hand it seems to me that you may suffer from Trump derangement syndrome also. Seems Trump derangement syndrome is not immune from Australia. As to president Trump being daddy that is what others claim of him. Trump has never claimed that of himself As to climate change . Eclipse climate change happens everyday. Mother Earth has her ways . Humanity dosnt really get to have a opinion on that. That be in the hands of God. But if you want go with all Al Gores predictions of doom and gloom we should have been all toasted some 15 yrs ago . And what of the the expanding holes in the ozone layer that they all screamed about it in the 80s blaming humanity’s pollution once more for the deed ? It turned out as truth eventually caught up with the lie that it was a natural reoccurring yearly event where both poles expanding or decreasing at different times of the year. You now hear nothing of the matter today . So I would be more careful with what the environmental movement and greenies claim all in the name of the environment. Manufacturing climate is a big business. Something to think about. As to Trump setting off a war. Seems to me he has done everything to prevent war although his outlook on the Gaza situation does leave much to be desired and one has many reservations. How much leeway does Israel get considering 50 thousand Palestinians now lay dead with all their infrastructure destroyed compared to Israel’s some 1300 dead . How much blood does Israel demand ?

You do mention the question of Taiwan. Is it a acceptable sacrifice to make and cede Taiwan to the communists to preserve peace. Firstly Taiwan is not as Hong Kong under a 99 yr lease given unto the British after the opium wars with China commencing in 1898 and transpiring in 1997 . The Taiwan situation is entirely different. They be the remnant of the Chinese nationalist people they never surrendered and refused communist rule . If we take that path then why not give up my ancestral homeland of South Korea to communism rule too. That all me write for now . I do wish you a pleasant Saturday evening in your Sydney. Regards Kathleen

 

[eclipsenow]

Great Four Corners sums it all up!

 

[eclipsenow]

You ask from where I make these bizarre assertions ? You then mention Biden’s green tech miracle flooding the viecle

I don't really know how that relates to any of my points before - and what your position is - and what you're really saying.

 

[Kathleen30]

I don't really know how that relates to any of my points before - and what your position is - and what you're really saying.

Well Eclipse I’ll leave it at that . Seems that no one can relate to your points all except you.

 

[Gene2memE]

And what of the the expanding holes in the ozone layer that they all screamed about it in the 80s blaming humanity’s pollution once more for the deed ? It turned out as truth eventually caught up with the lie that it was a natural reoccurring yearly event where both poles expanding or decreasing at different times of the year. You now hear nothing of the matter today .

The hole in the ozone layer?

1. It wasn't a lie. The satellite data is comprehensive. Yes, the ozone layer hole grew/shrank through the year. But, we knew about that oscillation at the time (satellite monitoring began in the late 1970s). The issue was that humans were causing the hole to grow exponentially. Arguing the human-induced ozone layer is a "lie" is like arguing global warming isn't happening, or the world is flat.

2. The reason you don't hear about it anymore is that the hole is in the process of closing (NASA has a monitoring site HERE). The expectation is that the ozone layer should recover from almost all of the human-caused damage done to it 2040 to 2045 (UN/EU/NASA 2022 assessment HERE).

What happened is that the world got together in the early 1980s, signed the Montreal Protocol in 1987, followed through with it with additional measures and reduced global CFC and HFC use by more than 95%. It took ~15 years, plenty of lobbying, more than a little international pressure and some major changes to industrial processes, but we got it done.


I only wish we had the same success with climate change. As it's going at the moment, we're on for a record or near-record year for temperatures, while solar activity continues to decrease. I had to read the OPEC oil outlook out to 2050 for work today and it was bloody depressing. Coal consumption down ~30 million bpd (energy equivalents) over the forecast period, but oil to grow 15-20 million and LNG about the same.

 

[Kathleen30]

The hole in the ozone layer?

1. It wasn't a lie. The satellite data is comprehensive. Yes, the ozone layer hole grew/shrank through the year. But, we knew about that oscillation at the time (satellite monitoring began in the late 1970s). The issue was that humans were causing the hole to grow exponentially. Arguing the human-induced ozone layer is a "lie" is like arguing global warming isn't happening, or the world is flat.

2. The reason you don't hear about it anymore is that the hole is in the process of closing (NASA has a monitoring site HERE). The expectation is that the ozone layer should recover from almost all of the human-caused damage done to it 2040 to 2045 (UN/EU/NASA 2022 assessment HERE).

What happened is that the world got together in the early 1980s, signed the Montreal Protocol in 1987, followed through with it with additional measures and reduced global CFC and HFC use by more than 95%. It took ~15 years, plenty of lobbying, more than a little international pressure and some major changes to industrial processes, but we got it done.


I only wish we had the same success with climate change. As it's going at the moment, we're on for a record or near-record year for temperatures, while solar activity continues to decrease. I had to read the OPEC oil outlook out to 2050 for work today and it was bloody depressing. Coal consumption down ~30 million bpd (energy equivalents) over the forecast period, but oil to grow 15-20 million and LNG about the same.

The holes in the ozone are a natural occurrence . I never said they weren’t real. Only that all the climate change propaganda saying that humanity was the cause of it all with all of humanity’s pollution that was the lie . And again the holes increase and decrease as they please. Do remember climate change is a big business and also a way to control society.

 

[7thKeeper]

The holes in the ozone are a natural occurrence . I never said they weren’t real. Only that all the climate change propaganda saying that humanity was the cause of it all with all of humanity’s pollution that was the lie . And again the holes increase and decrease as they please. Do remember climate change is a big business and also a way to control society.

Conspiracy theory forum is down that way....
And way to misrepresent what's actually said.

 

[Kathleen30]

Conspiracy theory forum is down that way....
And way to misrepresent what's actually said.

Really. Conspiracies happen anywhere any time. Just minus the theory in this regard. By the way many of those so called conspiracy theories often turn out to be true . But you’re entitled to your opinion. But with me. You know what you can do with your opinion

 

[7thKeeper]

Really. Conspiracies happen anywhere any time. Just minus the theory in this regard. By the way many of those so called conspiracy theories often turn out to be true . But you’re entitled to your opinion. But with me. You know what you can do with your opinion

"Many". List some. There are more false than those who end up having even a hint of truth to them, and in those cases it's easy to see them because those ones have something concrete to back them up. But complaining that climate change is propaganda and about ozone holes, is akin to saying that pot holes occure naturally while wielding a sledgehammer and smacking the concrete. And the conspiracy part is the "way to control society" part especially of your statement.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We HAD a big purchase deal worked out​

 

[eclipsenow]

The holes in the ozone are a natural occurrence . I never said they weren’t real. Only that all the climate change propaganda saying that humanity was the cause of it all with all of humanity’s pollution that was the lie . And again the holes increase and decrease as they please. Do remember climate change is a big business and also a way to control society.

I'm sorry but I think you got that back to front!

Climate scientists might earn $100k a year - but a Big Oil CEO probably earns that in their lunchbreak. Tell me - who has more motivation to lie?

Who has been CAUGHT lying? Exxon scientists predicted global warming with 'shocking skill and accuracy,' Harvard researchers say

Climate scientists are data driven people analysing tough questions in a slow and methodical and laborious way, trying to help the human race. Yet they get death threats from the foaming-at-the-mouth alt right for this valuable work? What has them so outraged? Ah - they perceive there are those who want to "control society". You said you believe in conspiracy theories? The link above proves one!

Also, climate change IS a thing. It's almost backyard science - indeed - Mythbusters proved the basic physics. In 1856 Eunice Foote put identical thermometers in identical glass jars in identical sunlight and filled them with different gases. Lo and behold! The CO2 jar was hot - and the methane jar even hotter! Imagine! Science works! Basically - this was old, settled physics before our grandparents even went to kindergarten.

Other points to consider:-

Why own an EV?
CHEAPER! Electricity as a fuel is cheaper than oil, and EV’s have no engine to service. Over the life of the vehicle they are cheaper. Soon they’ll be cheaper to buy outright!

PATRIOTIC
If we remain dependent on oil, we prop up the oil price so Petro-Tyrants like Russia and various Middle East types make extra profits. If the price lowers, we bankrupt our enemies.

POLLUTION COSTS MORE THAN THE SOLUTION!
4 universities studied global fossil fuel pollution: it kills 8 million people a year - that’s 1 in 5 deaths in 2018.
Deaths from fossil fuel emissions higher than previously thought
The EXTRA health costs to the world is $5 TRILLION a year.
Stop funding pollution
IEA estimates we only need to spend $4 Trillion a year on the Energy Transition. https://www.iea.org/reports/net-zero-by-2050
The sooner we do this, the sooner it pays for itself!

OIL IS FINITE
Oil does not run out any time soon - maybe in 50 years or so. But that's not what is important. Peak oil means after decades of ramping up a field is at its peak - and then starts to decline. GLOBAL peak oil means global oil output will peak - and then start to decline. Imagine the price? Imagine the geopolitical tensions - when it takes 10 calories of energy to grow 1 calorie of food?
At current rates - Oil RUNS OUT in about 50-ish years. Gas is less, and even COAL just over a century.
Years of fossil fuel reserves left

QUESTION: considering Japan bombed pear harbour because they were under an energy embargo - can you see any potential downsides to NOT preparing for peak oil? It takes a decent amount of energy to mine and refine the various metals for batteries. The long term goal is to not use any fossil fuels - and recycle all these metals we've mined into the new EV's. But the first generation is going to take some oil to get there! How about we prepare BEFORE some kind of peak oil Armageddon? Sounds like an idea to me! Peak oil - Wikipedia

 

[Kathleen30]

View attachment 367649

I'm sorry but I think you got that back to front!

Climate scientists might earn $100k a year - but a Big Oil CEO probably earns that in their lunchbreak. Tell me - who has more motivation to lie?

Who has been CAUGHT lying? Exxon scientists predicted global warming with 'shocking skill and accuracy,' Harvard researchers say

Climate scientists are data driven people analysing tough questions in a slow and methodical and laborious way, trying to help the human race. Yet they get death threats from the foaming-at-the-mouth alt right for this valuable work? What has them so outraged? Ah - they perceive there are those who want to "control society". You said you believe in conspiracy theories? The link above proves one!

Also, climate change IS a thing. It's almost backyard science - indeed - Mythbusters proved the basic physics. In 1856 Eunice Foote put identical thermometers in identical glass jars in identical sunlight and filled them with different gases. Lo and behold! The CO2 jar was hot - and the methane jar even hotter! Imagine! Science works! Basically - this was old, settled physics before our grandparents even went to kindergarten.

Other points to consider:-

Why own an EV?
CHEAPER! Electricity as a fuel is cheaper than oil, and EV’s have no engine to service. Over the life of the vehicle they are cheaper. Soon they’ll be cheaper to buy outright!

PATRIOTIC
If we remain dependent on oil, we prop up the oil price so Petro-Tyrants like Russia and various Middle East types make extra profits. If the price lowers, we bankrupt our enemies.

POLLUTION COSTS MORE THAN THE SOLUTION!
4 universities studied global fossil fuel pollution: it kills 8 million people a year - that’s 1 in 5 deaths in 2018.
Deaths from fossil fuel emissions higher than previously thought
The EXTRA health costs to the world is $5 TRILLION a year.
Stop funding pollution
IEA estimates we only need to spend $4 Trillion a year on the Energy Transition. https://www.iea.org/reports/net-zero-by-2050
The sooner we do this, the sooner it pays for itself!

OIL IS FINITE
Oil does not run out any time soon - maybe in 50 years or so. But that's not what is important. Peak oil means after decades of ramping up a field is at its peak - and then starts to decline. GLOBAL peak oil means global oil output will peak - and then start to decline. Imagine the price? Imagine the geopolitical tensions - when it takes 10 calories of energy to grow 1 calorie of food?
At current rates - Oil RUNS OUT in about 50-ish years. Gas is less, and even COAL just over a century.
Years of fossil fuel reserves left

QUESTION: considering Japan bombed pear harbour because they were under an energy embargo - can you see any potential downsides to NOT preparing for peak oil? It takes a decent amount of energy to mine and refine the various metals for batteries. The long term goal is to not use any fossil fuels - and recycle all these metals we've mined into the new EV's. But the first generation is going to take some oil to get there! How about we prepare BEFORE some kind of peak oil Armageddon? Sounds like an idea to me! Peak oil - Wikipedia

Eclipse what a climate scientist makes and an oil executive makes really has no bearing. Big business invests in both. It suits them just fine with all the climate mongering. They invest both ways. Either way oil prices are kept a whole lot higher than they should be and we pay through the teeth both ways. Be it by oil and fuel exploitation or by climate infrastructure exploitation . It’s always the everyday person that is milked and who has to foot the bill.

As to climate scientists all being data driven. Well all scientists do claim the same. At the same time data can be manipulated and doctored to promote a political view or economic advantage such as with cigarettes when many a good doctor used to promote the well being of the cigarette to one’s soul back in the 40s to the 60s from what I have read. Fraud even promoted a dab of cocaine to his clients and so much more be it from the many claims of the specialist fields .

Again you mention petro tyrants. Some amusing : ) there also climo tyrants too. They often have their fingers in both pies. Now again when thinking upon climate change l. I have no problem with climate change. As I said it happens everyday in various ways. What I have a problem is the political influence upon climate change as with the ozone layer and its holes which is now fully realised that they expand and decrease it’s a natural phenomenon and never really anything to do with aerosols. Far from It . More so when we consider what Mother Earth unleashes into our atmosphere on a daily basis like the gasses from volcanos even more so when they erupt along with various other things like forest fires. Car pollutions may be unhealthy to humanity but certainly not be to our vegetation for vegetation plants and trees thrive on it.. Now the arguments for and against ozone holes be a plenty. Our veiw points will probably never agree.

Eclipse as to our oil production peaking and then declining there is always the matter of financial manipulation to consider . Some say fossil fuel is just a term used to make oil seem limited and precious. But considering the vast untapped oil resources in Alaska and many other places throughout the world not to mention that there be the strange habit of many oil wells that have run dry. But when checked in later yrs are now full to the max again. Seems to be a ever lasting abundance oil than what is claimed.

Now you mention the Death toll from industrial pollution and vehicles. Your statistics from the universities are some 8 million deaths per year. Let’s say it’s correct. What are our alternatives. To suddenly ban all petrol driven cars and than to ban all coal fired powered stations as many environmentalists demand . What than ? The what then would be a death toll far exceeding the death toll you mention perhaps 20 fold more perhaps even more . Battery driven cars are not logical when it comes to travelling long distances and the infrastructure with power battery chargers is still problematic. And as to alternative energy filling the void replacing coal and gas via solar or wind power the alternative energy cannot be relied upon for immediate power nor constant reliable power for it depends on the good graces of the weather. It would be a economic disaster not to mention the well being of humanity for many of us without a reliable source of power.

And finally Eclipse as we consider alternative energies we must always consider the well being of our human race. Have we found a better alternative energy that functions more cost effective and is a reliable source of energy other than the coal gas or nuclear that we have with us today. Not as yet or perhaps we have Eclipse perhaps there hidden away lovked under lock and key within the mind and thoughts of Nikola Tesla of clean and cheap energy within the boundaries of earths electrical fields that surround our planet. Me does think between all the religious fanatics and climate fanatics bidding for our final demise and destruction every year . It be a close run contest for first place between the both. One does think upon Georgia Guide Stones. I much happy that someone blew the nasty little stones up for promoting such a population diversity of only 1 billion people. Thankfully it be the God that has the final authority of when the earth shall end and not the science or dictates of men. Nor of anyone else that claims to determine the end. Yours Kathleen.

 

[eclipsenow]

Wow - that's going to require 2 posts to reply to.

"It’s always the everyday person that is milked and who has to foot the bill."

ECONOMIC IMPACT

Except the bill with fossil fuels is MUCH higher because:-
1. Climate change is real - you have not responded to the raw physics which Fourier figured out 200 years ago, and Foote clarified in 1856.

You say "Our veiw points will probably never agree." I'm not discussing viewpoints. I'm discussing facts and evidence - as a Christian I thought you would value basing your opinion on verifiable truth claims.

2. Globally fossil fuel pollution kills more people than live in the entire state of NSW each year, and costs the world $5 TRILLION in EXTRA health care costs. The World Bank estimates the Energy Transition will cost only $4 Trillion. The sooner we do this the sooner it pays for itself.

3. Peak oil IS a thing. It IS finite. "Some say fossil fuel is just a term used to make oil seem limited and precious." Give me a break. Who is "some"? How much is in Alaska? Try doing some actual research before you post! Global conventional oil has already peaked. Only unconventional oil like tar-sands flooded the market and reversed America's oil decline - and turned America into one of the world's largest oil exporters! But at a horrendous environmental and financial cost. It is only affordable at a new average higher global price.

Historical oil discovered in green - oil mined in rusty red.​

Look at this graph closely. See how discoveries last century are now dropping off? The consumption / production graph line can only follow discoveries. See how 1985 was the LAST time we discovered more oil in a year than we burned?

We are now burning oil our grandparents discovered!

So when you get back to us about Alaska's oil reserves - remember to divide by 100 million barrels. Because we burn that every day! Alaska / 100 million barrels = days of oil Alaska has. Got it? Please go do some googling.​

(I'll put my answer at the bottom of the next post).​

Remember - peak oil is not about oil running out, but slowly running down. It's about the easy, cheap stuff being largely used up. The "low-hanging fruit" is gone - and it's going to cost more and more to get the other stuff. But don't worry - EV sales are on track to radically reduce oil use across the next 10 to 15 years. We'll leave oil way before it leaves us.

4. Oil DOES fund petro-tyrants - most of Russia's income is from natural gas and oil. It's literally funding the war in Ukraine.

Why do you want to defend a corrupt regime like them, like the Middle Eastern regimes that are as oppressive as some Medieval Kings - why? Just turning around and ASSERTING there are 'climate tyrants' is not convincing. Governments have a duty of care to their populations to deal with the problems above. What is your solution to pollution killing over 8 million a year, costing $5 TRILLION a year in extra health fees, destabilising the climate according to demonstrable physics, and the other challenges above? You don't have one.

I do. It's happening before our eyes. Not perfectly - nothing is - but it's a start.

 

[eclipsenow]

SMOKING: You seem to have missed the point on the smoking analogy. The very same 'doctors' that tried to argue smoking was good for us sowed FUD about the science against smoking. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Some of the very same people (see wiki) employed their skills against climate science, establishing the pattern of denial. You appear to have been taken in by the very same people you just referenced! Irony, much?

SUDDEN BANNING: That's ridiculous - please show where I suggested such a thing? I am with you in that suddenly BANNING fossil fuels would be horrendous! But this is where you have demonstrated how little you know about energy - and are just recycling other people's talking points. It would not kill 20 times as many people as the pollution (say 8 million) which would be 160 million people a year. No no no!

A sudden ban on fossil fuels would cause the collapse of industrial civilisation - and agriculture - and the death of about 6 to 7 billion people! It's the stuff of my nightmares - the stuff of Mad Max.

We "Eat fossil fuels" in that it takes 10 calories of oil to grow 1 calorie of food. We use the Haber-Bosch process to make nitrogen fertilisers and run harvesters and farm equivalent and all kinds of transport to create what James Howard Kunstler calls "The 3000 mile Caesar Salad".

Instead - I propose a ban on all NEW fossil fuel exploration and exploitation, and the removal of TRILLIONS in various kinds of subsidies to Big Oil from governments across the globe. I also propose we gradually increase a carbon tax to help us Refuel our civilisation on Renewables, Rezone our Cities around the best Ecocity Practices, Replenish the soil through various kinds of Regenerative Agriculture, and so much more.
The energy cost in fossil fuels to build the first generation of clean energy has been costed - it's about 6 months of carbon at today's rates. That's JUST the energy to build the world's first generation of an "All Electric" civilisation. It's not the fossil fuels to keep running things AS we deploy the clean tech - but as you can see - the energy cost to build renewables is not that much.

Just like any product release curve - the old will scale down as the new scales up. Faster than most think!

EV's: The ranges are already FANTASTIC for 95% of city driving. Highway driving should not be a problem AS the EV charging spots improve. Time them around a toilet break and drink, and you're done.

JANUS AUSTRALIA have EV trucks for Australian conditions - we have some of the biggest trucks in the world! Tesla's Semi requires a MEGACHARGER which can put stress on the local grid. Janus instead charge their batteries slowly - and then when the truck pulls in - a guy on a forklift swaps the truck battery over! Yep, battery swap. It can be done in 2 minutes.

INTERMITTENCY: You're thinking too locally. Intermittency is solved by OVERBULDING across the continent. This is affordable because wind and solar are now 1/4 cost of nukes per gigawatt. The savings can be put into the super-grid and batteries and OFF-river pumped hydro. As we "electrify everything" - energy becomes fungible. Big iron smelters in the Outback sunshine might have charged up their Rondo Heat Blocks - and have abundant extra energy to pump into the grid when Queensland is in cyclone weather under clouds. Other states can let their hydro dams go and get income from that stored energy when Sydney's in cloud. Or we'll just use Snowy 2.0 for the first 4 days at least. You'll see. It's not a problem. It's been calculated - and it's CHEAPER than coal!

Overbuild

We all know that solar power is only good for the best brightest third of a day, and that wind largely depends on the weather. How does a 100% renewable energy grid survive Dunkelflautes – th…

eclipsenow.wordpress.com

CLIMATE FANATICS:? Please retract that. There's climate science and policy - then there are some extremists within the movement. I would disagree with them, like some of the Extinction Rebellion assaults against public art, etc. I mean - how to tarnish the climate movement!? I disagree that they represent climate science and policy just as I disagree with the proposition that Westborough Baptists represent all Christianity when they do their obnoxious stunts. They do not! Not the bible I read - and not the churches I know! So please try to avoid inflammatory and derisive terms about a subject you seem to know little about.

The reality is the moment the world moves to renewables we are freed from depending on a finite and depleting resource - and can use abundant, recyclable materials to get our energy from!

OZONE layer DOES expand and contract naturally - it's the RANGE of expansion you don't understand. It is ALSO harmed by our chemicals. These 2 facts live comfortably alongside each other. It's the same with climate. Over hundreds of thousands of years things like the Milankovitch Cycles cause natural climate variation. Also - about 600 million years ago the world nearly froze. (Google "Snowball Earth".) Fortunately that was back when there were so many very active volcanoes poking through the ice that they FLOODED the atmosphere with CO2! Excessive CRAZY climate change resulted - with acid rain storms a millennia long - so acidic they melted rock - but all of this SAVED life on earth! My point? In that climate story, CO2 was the 'good guy' in the story of the development of life on earth.

Everything is about context and understanding the bigger picture. I suggest you start watching some real climate science channels that unpack it for lay people like myself. I'm no scientist - but I love the executive summaries - the stories from climate science and all these different fields. I suggest you develop some curiosity and learn more about the subject you are tarnishing without understanding.

Try this as a brief - Undeceptions by Dr John Dickson. He interviews one of the world's most famous evangelical climate scientists.
This is one of my favourite apologetics podcasts and one of my favourite episodes on my favourite podcast.
Cheers! Have a great weekend - and listen to this podcast regularly - it's quite encouraging.

Good Earth

Undeceptions Episode 26: This episode is more than the debate of climate change here on earth, it's about what lies behind such beliefs.

undeceptions.com

After that - Just Have a Think YouTube is great - and you might like Katharine Hayhoe's channel that sometimes caters to specifically Christian questions about climate change. (She is the climate lady interviewed by John Dickson above.)

Answer to Alaska oil Quiz: ​

I found figures ranging around 3.1 to 3.4 billion barrels left in Alaska.​

Let's make it 4 billion barrels = 4000 million barrels / 100 million barrels day = ooops!​

Only 40 days global consumption of oil.​

We're saved! ​

​

 

[Kathleen30]

Wow - that's going to require 2 posts to reply to.

"It’s always the everyday person that is milked and who has to foot the bill."

ECONOMIC IMPACT

Except the bill with fossil fuels is MUCH higher because:-
1. Climate change is real - you have not responded to the raw physics which Fourier figured out 200 years ago, and Foote clarified in 1856.

You say "Our veiw points will probably never agree." I'm not discussing viewpoints. I'm discussing facts and evidence - as a Christian I thought you would value basing your opinion on verifiable truth claims.

2. Globally fossil fuel pollution kills more people than live in the entire state of NSW each year, and costs the world $5 TRILLION in EXTRA health care costs. The World Bank estimates the Energy Transition will cost only $4 Trillion. The sooner we do this the sooner it pays for itself.

3. Peak oil IS a thing. It IS finite. "Some say fossil fuel is just a term used to make oil seem limited and precious." Give me a break. Who is "some"? How much is in Alaska? Try doing some actual research before you post! Global conventional oil has already peaked. Only unconventional oil like tar-sands flooded the market and reversed America's oil decline - and turned America into one of the world's largest oil exporters! But at a horrendous environmental and financial cost. It is only affordable at a new average higher global price.

Historical oil discovered in green - oil mined in rusty red.​

Look at this graph closely. See how discoveries last century are now dropping off? The consumption / production graph line can only follow discoveries. See how 1985 was the LAST time we discovered more oil in a year than we burned?

We are now burning oil our grandparents discovered!

View attachment 367737

So when you get back to us about Alaska's oil reserves - remember to divide by 100 million barrels. Because we burn that every day! Alaska / 100 million barrels = days of oil Alaska has. Got it? Please go do some googling.​

(I'll put my answer at the bottom of the next post).​

Remember - peak oil is not about oil running out, but slowly running down. It's about the easy, cheap stuff being largely used up. The "low-hanging fruit" is gone - and it's going to cost more and more to get the other stuff. But don't worry - EV sales are on track to radically reduce oil use across the next 10 to 15 years. We'll leave oil way before it leaves us.

4. Oil DOES fund petro-tyrants - most of Russia's income is from natural gas and oil. It's literally funding the war in Ukraine.

Why do you want to defend a corrupt regime like them, like the Middle Eastern regimes that are as oppressive as some Medieval Kings - why? Just turning around and ASSERTING there are 'climate tyrants' is not convincing. Governments have a duty of care to their populations to deal with the problems above. What is your solution to pollution killing over 8 million a year, costing $5 TRILLION a year in extra health fees, destabilising the climate according to demonstrable physics, and the other challenges above? You don't have one.

I do. It's happening before our eyes. Not perfectly - nothing is - but it's a start.

Again no one denies climate is not real it’s been happening for 6 -7 thousand years and not just the 200 yrs your professor claims When I say that ( it is always the everyday person that is milked and has to pay ) you reply is economic impact. If you implying climate impact. Then how much you think ? Maybe something like ex prime minister Kevin Rudds policy of a carbon footprint for every business and individual. Which thankfully wasn’t implemented because he was ousted some say being a tyrant and a law unto himself within his own party. How much do we already pay in environmental taxes. Lots. But you seem to want more.

Eclipse when you say oil has peaked. Has supply and demand been affected. NO So it has no bearing on what your claiming nor on reality . The only time supply has been affected is with embargo’s such as with Japan prior to the 2nd world and with the Arab nations embargo on America due to the Arab - Israeli conflict back in the 70’s. Just because there be lesser discoveries doesn't mean we don’t have ample supply. We do have ample supply and the reality is that they’ve been saying we’d run out of oil decade after decade : ) But we never do. You did mention unconventional tar oil. Yes that’s right. Are we not able to refine and still at a profitable margin. Yes. It’s what we call being stewards of Gods black liquid. Waste not want not. And again our green environment thrives on the fumes of the industrial world. To be continued

 

[eclipsenow]

Again no one denies climate is not real it’s been happening for 6 -7 thousand years and not just the 200 yrs your professor claims

Ah - so Brisbane - Christian - and Young Earth Creationist. Got it.
No anti-climate biases here!

When I say that ( it is always the everyday person that is milked and has to pay ) you reply is economic impact. If you implying climate impact. Then how much you think ? Maybe something like ex prime minister Kevin Rudds policy of a carbon footprint for every business and individual. Which thankfully wasn’t implemented because he was ousted some say being a tyrant and a law unto himself within his own party. How much do we already pay in environmental taxes. Lots. But you seem to want more.

When you can actually address the replies I have already given to this point - I'll bother to reply.

View attachment 367784

Big pink blocks do not make you appear to have more points.

Eclipse when you say oil has peaked.

Read what I actually wrote. Conventional oil has peaked. But you do not seem to want to bother with complicated things like 'data' and the fact that there are multiple varieties of oil - so I don't know why I'm bothering to try and explain this to you. Your replies are so uninformed as to be glib.

Has supply and demand been affected. NO So it has no bearing on what your claiming nor on reality .

Glib. Uninformed.
The REALITY is that if the entire world of conventional oil has peaked, that means that only the more fragile reservoirs of unconventional oil are holding the balance.

It means that the 'cheap oil' era of the past is gone. Here - let me use a metaphor.

Imagine you pick apples on holidays, and have a beach mission you're supplying with 2 wheelbarrow loads of apples each morning. It's an apple-themed mission with food, games, apple-bobbing, everything apples.

You have a few weeks to pick these from a field of fantastic apple trees.

The first week is really easy - as they're all the lower apples - and you can do your 2 wheelbarrow loads in just a few hours.

But the second week you look around and it's taking longer to do each wheelbarrow. Why? All the low hanging fruit are gone. You have to carry a ladder with you. It's far more work to climb up and get those higher up apples, then you have to climb down again just to move the ladder when you could just walk before - then you climb up again. This for every branch! You realise at the end of the first week that you're never going to be able to fill 2 barrow loads a day again!

It's the same with oil. Conventional oil is the great stuff in just the right spot. While no one ever shot a hole in the ground 'and up came a bubbling crude - oil that is - Texas tea - black gold." (Beverly Hillbillies) - it WAS a whole bunch easier to mine conventional oil fields with those nodding donkey drills than it is to use high tech horizontal mining of the deep-sea floor many kilometres below sea level! That's a whole lot more expensive kit - and a whole lot harder to mine!

Or the extra ingredients and energy in shale oil or tar sands. Watch some YouTube documentaries on the extra energy it takes to extract that stuff.

Bottom line? We've used all the cheap stuff. Now comes the more expensive, less abundant harder half of the oil age. We're not RUNNING OUT of oil any time soon - but we are going to start running down. We have to. And the global market has to keep the price at a higher point than has been the average for decades. I'm not saying where exactly on the 'peak' we are standing - from our perspective it looks more like a plateau.

​

But here are the facts you seem unable to absorb:-​

1. The last time we found more oil than we burned was 1985.​

2. Since the industrial revolution, we have burned 1.3 to 1.5 TRILLION barrels of oil.​

The good news?
EV's are here, and growing cheaper and penetrating markets faster.
Your objections are rubbish.
The world has truly mind-bogglingly vast resources of cheap alternative renewable energy available.
Backing all of that up is not a problem when you overbuild supply so that:-
1. Everything runs on electricity
2. The overbuilt capacity is not 'extra' just to 'firm' supply - but is actually doing economically profitable work.
3. This new super-grid can have afternoon Perth sunlight powering Sydney cooking in the dark!
4. It does not pollute - and does not empower oil Petro-tyrants, and can be shared economically and peacefully around the world.
5. Indeed - some see a future global grid being cheaper than continental-sized grids - and important renewable electricity trading might encourage more world peace.

It’s what we call being stewards of Gods black liquid.

Funny how you put an emphasis on burning a finite resource up as somehow being good 'stewards' of that resource!

Yet you don't seem to care about 'stewarding' the biosphere, saving 8 million lives a year from oil pollution, saving the world from well funded Petro-Dictators like Russia and the Middle East and Venezuela, and protecting a stable climate for future generations.

But oil!? Yeah - look out - Kathleen wants to 'steward it'.
Please - don't ever try to 'steward me' will you Kathleen?
I'm not sure you know what the word means.


"And again our green environment thrives on the fumes of the industrial world."
Oh great! What happened - did you talk to someone at church and they passed you your next denial talking point? I know where this is going - and no - it's not as simple as you think!