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Does the "reign in the influence of Israel" movement need a Tucker Carlson to be credible?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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the UK had a "mandate" over the southern Levant which was partitioned into two future state, one Jewish, one Arab.

As you noted earlier, these Arab states didn't want the Arabs of Palestine in their territories. Clearly they also needed their own state. Looks like partition is working reasonably well at this point in the argument.

If that land was in Israel, then it was in Israel, but if it was in the Arab partition, then it was just land owned by Jews in the Arab Palestinian partition. Israel has nothing to do with it.

Think of it this way. There is a lot of talk about foreigners buying up land in the US, particularly Chinese. Suppose some Chinese citizen who does not reside in the US buys a large Montana ranch. Does that make that piece of land in Montana part of China? What about if the land is owned by an ethnic Chinese person living in Singapore? Taiwan? Canada? the US?


It would still be part of the USA.
OK. The last part is that all the surrounding countries were made from land they got the same way Israel did. Your example is not really relevant because the US is a country and so is China. The land in the US is part of the US.
 
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Hans Blaster

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OK. The last part is that all the surrounding countries were made from land they got the same way Israel did. Your example is not really relevant because the US is a country and so is China. The land in the US is part of the US.
Not all countries surrounding Israel were formed in the same way. Egypt has existed for ~5000 years in roughly the same place with few gaps (and once controlled all of what is Israel today, about 3300 years ago). Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon were formed through mandates to Britain (Jordan) and France (Lebanon and Syria) that Israel and Palestine were. That does not justify a war of conquest.
 
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rjs330

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Not all countries surrounding Israel were formed in the same way. Egypt has existed for ~5000 years in roughly the same place with few gaps (and once controlled all of what is Israel today, about 3300 years ago). Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon were formed through mandates to Britain (Jordan) and France (Lebanon and Syria) that Israel and Palestine were. That does not justify a war of conquest.
Wars of conquest can be of two types. Unnecessary or necessary. Unnecessary ones is where you just want to take over another area and expand your power and influence.

Necessary ones would be to take over another area to stop them from continuing to attack you.

That would be Israel. The question will be answered some day if this really is a war of conquest. If Israel holds onto and ends up controlling and governing Gaza then it was. That remains to be seen.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Not all countries surrounding Israel were formed in the same way. Egypt has existed for ~5000 years in roughly the same place with few gaps (and once controlled all of what is Israel today, about 3300 years ago). Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon were formed through mandates to Britain (Jordan) and France (Lebanon and Syria) that Israel and Palestine were. That does not justify a war of conquest.
All of them got land from the same deal. Palestine was a name given to the land Israel was on by the Romans The Arabs co-opted the name. That land Jordan got was to be the "palestinian" state. They reneged on the deal. war of conquest? Israel was attacked by many Arab states as soon as it was re-born in 1948...
 
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Hans Blaster

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All of them got land from the same deal. Palestine was a name given to the land Israel was on by the Romans The Arabs co-opted the name. That land Jordan got was to be the "palestinian" state.
No (Trans-)Jordan was a separate part of the British Mandate (the part beyond the Jordan River, hence the name). Mandatory Palestine was the remaining part and to be partitioned into Jewish and Arab States.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia
They reneged on the deal. war of conquest? Israel was attacked by many Arab states as soon as it was re-born in 1948...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Chesterton

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All of them got land from the same deal. Palestine was a name given to the land Israel was on by the Romans The Arabs co-opted the name. That land Jordan got was to be the "palestinian" state. They reneged on the deal. war of conquest? Israel was attacked by many Arab states as soon as it was re-born in 1948...
Some fun trivia: the Arabic language does not have the letter "p" as in Palestine, and Arabic speakers can have a hard time pronouncing it. An Arab waiter might offer you a cub of soub, rather than a cup of soup. Strange. It would be as if Germans couldn't pronounce the "d" in Deutschland.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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What happened is that you were wrong about Jordan being the Arab part of Palestine.
No I wasn't. Jordan, originally known as Transjordan, was created out of the British Mandate for Palestine. Specifically, the eastern portion of the Palestine Mandate, east of the Jordan River, was designated as Transjordan and given a separate administration. After the failure of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, the 1947–1949 Palestine war ended with Mandatory Palestine divided among Israel, the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank and the Egyptian All-Palestine Protectorate in the Gaza Strip. The West Bank, west of the Jordan River, was part of the original British Mandate for Palestine. It was later annexed by Jordan in 1950, but this annexation was not widely recognized.

A past PLO leader (Zuheir Mohsen )said it himself:
"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Some fun trivia: the Arabic language does not have the letter "p" as in Palestine, and Arabic speakers can have a hard time pronouncing it. An Arab waiter might offer you a cub of soub, rather than a cup of soup. Strange. It would be as if Germans couldn't pronounce the "d" in Deutschland.
Filashtin
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I see that you don't think facts are a thing. Not sure how a discussion is possible under those conditions.
I see historical revisionism is your thing...so not sure how a discussion is possible under those conditions.

A past PLO leader (Zuheir Mohsen) said it himself:
"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
 
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Hans Blaster

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I see historical revisionism is your thing...so not sure how a discussion is possible under those conditions.
It is not.
A past PLO leader (Zuheir Mohsen) said it himself:
"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
First this is propaganda/political posturing. I was referring to the international legal situation. Zuheir Mohsen was a politician who died almost 40 years ago. .
Second you have made no reply or acknowledgement of the condition of Mandatory Palestine (which is *not* Jordan) and *its* partition.
Third Israel has no right under international law to possession of the West Bank or the Gaza Strip.

Finally, the formation of ethnic groups is complicated. Whether there were group self-identified as "Jordanians" or "Palestinians" when the Ottomans fell a century ago, does not imply that those aren't identities today.
 
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Pommer

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Some fun trivia: the Arabic language does not have the letter "p" as in Palestine, and Arabic speakers can have a hard time pronouncing it. An Arab waiter might offer you a cub of soub, rather than a cup of soup. Strange. It would be as if Germans couldn't pronounce the "d" in Deutschland.
So the Arab population couldn’t easily pronounce the word for their own land that outsiders gave to it?
 
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Chesterton

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So the Arab population couldn’t easily pronounce the word for their own land that outsiders gave to it?
Um, no. They can't easily pronounce the word for the land that they conquered and colonized.
 
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Chesterton

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What? Back a millennium and a half? Kewl.
I don't know what difference time makes. By your logic, the English can claim to be indigenous to upper North America.
 
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