Should pulpits remain silent on politics?

[public hermit]

But that's what it entails since you oppose Christians having power or sovereignty over themselves as a community, right? We need a non Christian ruling class over us right?

You seem ignorant of the phenomenal growth of Christianity prior to Constantine. Why the growth? They were genuinely followers, come hell or high water. They established hostels and treated the outcast and stranger with dignity and love. They were persecuted and yet responded with love. What did the institution/empire do? It slaughtered those who stepped outside the pale of doctrine. Those are two different kinds of kingdoms. One is of God, the other is of this world.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Valid point, but that was just a bump in the road. It didn't change the trajectory of the institution.

Would you have preferred Julian succeed?

 

[timothyu]

Well they did because Christians opposed it as a punishment and this influenced the Emperor. Was this bad?

Nonsense. An emperor who saw himself a god would have followed no such influence. He was the governor over man and the church. The Father took second place and that is where the church failed God. His Kingdom come, His will be done... not the Emperor's or the churches.

 

[public hermit]

Would you have preferred Julian succeed?

If you must, would you ask a relevant question, please?

 

[timothyu]

They should speak to issues and principles but not candidates.

Yes and regarding issues, ask the people to discern whether they follow the self-serving will of man or the 'other' serving will of the Father. The human governments themselves will never represent God but some policy can, but sadly usually only if it serves some side benefit.,

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Nonsense. An emperor who saw himself a god would have followed no such influence. He was the governor over man and the church. The Father took second place and that is where the church failed God. His Kingdom come, His will be done... not the Emperor's or the churches.

As far as I can see no Christian Emperor viewed themselves as a god. But are you opposed to Christians having influence on power at all? Because if we've never had influence over power how can you condemn Christians before you?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you must, would you ask a relevant question, please?

I think it's relevant since you and Julian appear to be kindred spirits. He too sought Christians to be out of power and influence and enacted measures hostile to the Church in order to accomplish that. He was smart enough to realize that control of education was imperative and so he forbade Christians to teach the classics which was the standard curriculum of the time.

Would you have liked it if Julian had succeeded and his reformed Greco Paganism dominated the empire instead of Christianity?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You seem ignorant of the phenomenal growth of Christianity prior to Constantine. Why the growth? They were genuinely followers, come hell or high water. They established hostels and treated the outcast and stranger with dignity and love. They were persecuted and yet responded with love. What did the institution/empire do? It slaughtered those who stepped outside the pale of doctrine. Those are two different kinds of kingdoms. One is of God, the other is of this world.

And the Church continued to grow after Constantine, in fact it was preserved mainly due to force of arms against forces like Islam that successfully destroyed Christianity or significantly weakened it in the areas conquered by it.

I just don't agree with you that Christians are a serf or dhimmi class and that God has ordained it so that only non Christians hold power. Evidently God gave Christians power and we are not forbidden to have sovereignty over ourselves.

 

[RileyG]

How about What Jesus taught. He takes precedent over churches.

I am faithful to what Jesus taught. Don’t goad me.

 

[RileyG]

The early church didn't challenge Rome. The early church embraced Romanism and empire. It was a colossal error and ultimately anti-Christ.

No. Rome embraced Christianity and it became legal during the edict of Milan in 313.

 

[RileyG]

Ever heard of Constantine? Keep up, bud. The church became Romanized and still hasn't recovered. The way of Christ and the institution that embraced power are two different things. Church visible vs. church invisible, and so on.

Constantine legalized Christianity and which allowed it to be widespread. He was baptized on his death bed as a Christian.

 

[timothyu]

As far as I can see no Christian Emperor viewed themselves as a god.

Try Constantine.

But are you opposed to Christians having influence on power at all?

No, it happened here with a preacher starting his own political party for the benefit of the people and he stuck to his word much to the disdain of regular politicians. Today it would be called socialist. But even in Constantine's time the influence was on the church, not the other way around. The Empire did not at any time model the kingdom as the church was supposed to do.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Try Constantine.

Where did Constantine declare himself a god?

No, it happened here with a preacher starting his own political party for the benefit of the people and he stuck to his word much to the disdain of regular politicians. Today it would be called socialist. But even in Constantine's time the influence was on the church, not the other way around. The Empire did not at any time model the kingdom as the church was supposed to do.

So your contention is that Christianity has never had any influence over society or government? Why is Christianity particularly weak regarding it's influence in your worldview? How do you explain the appearance of law that reflects Christian values instead of Pagan values in Christian dominated nations? All just pure coincidence?

 

[timothyu]

How do you explain the appearance of law that reflects Christian values instead of Pagan values in Christian dominated nations?

What values? where is the Father as supreme being over human government? Where is loving all as self in human government? Where is repentance of self-interest? As for Constantine declaring himself a god, look it up in non-partisan literature

 

[RDKirk]

And you would have preferred if the Pagans remained Pagans? Im honestly kind of confused at your guys reasoning.

Pagans are still pagans.
And most people, including most Americans, are pagans.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Pagans are still pagans.
And most people, including most Americans, are pagans.

Are they more or less pagan than 200 years ago?

 

[RDKirk]

Are they more or less pagan than 200 years ago?

More. There are more pagans in the US today, for instance, than the entire population of the US 200 years ago.

And that's not even counting India and China.

 

[XrxrX]

Such a nuanced issue.
"The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants." - Congress 1854

The question is, how far the chasm between pulpit and politic, and politic from pulpit before one can span the other?

I think we've seen this before, and in fact over, and over, and over...
I for one, don't think 'Yes sir, may I have another..' is the answer.

Be saved, while you yet may... is.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

More. There are more pagans in the US today, for instance, than the entire population of the US 200 years ago.

And that's not even counting India and China.

And you want there to be even more Pagans going forward?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What values? where is the Father as supreme being over human government? Where is loving all as self in human government? Where is repentance of self-interest? As for Constantine declaring himself a god, look it up in non-partisan literature

Not doing your homework. Provide the source. Also as Rome became Christian, pagan worship was outlawed and the Emperor gave devotion to God. Do you disapprove of this?