Does the "reign in the influence of Israel" movement need a Tucker Carlson to be credible?

[Desk trauma]

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror groups with millions...Israel is our ally, Iran is NOT

Incorrect. We are Israel’s ally, they are not ours.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I support Israel unconditionally with blank check, but you are free to have a different view. That's democracy—everyone has their own opinion, and we must coexist.

So you're saying there's literally nothing they could do with the money we give them that could give you pause or reconsideration?

For instance, if they were to do something extreme with it...like euthanize people with mental disabilities -- that still wouldn't be a red line and you say "keep giving money to Israel, because they're Israel"?

 

[JosephZ]

But the timeline doesn't line up with when the major interventions actually occurred, which was well before Bush's "War on Terror"

1948 through the end of the Shah's reign would've been time period in which which Western powers were doing the most string pulling, correct?

Prior to 1980, Islamist terrorism was rare. The terrorist activity related to the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 was primarily secular in nature until the late 70s. There wasn't a significant rise in Islamist terrorism until the Iranian Revolution and the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

The reason for the sharp uptick post 2008 I think can be more adequately explained by a combination of
1) Increasing pervasiveness of the Salafi and Wahhabi ideologies (which both seek to confine Islam to the strictest interpretation of its earliest forms, and an emphasis on emulation of Muhammed)
2) Technological advances (IE: the internet) that made dissemination of messaging, recruitment, fundraising, planning, and communication 100X easier and faster

The uptick post 2008 was a combination of the 2007 US troop surge, the withdraw in 2009, and the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

As far as the motivations behind the Pulse night club attack, making that one all about US interventionism would be some selective airbrushing

Omar Mateen in his own words during the attack:

"You have to tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq. They are killing a lot of innocent people... What am I to do here when my people are getting killed over there... You need to stop the U.S. airstrikes. They need to stop the U.S. airstrikes, OK? A lot of innocent women and children are getting killed in Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan, OK? The airstrikes need to stop and stop collaborating with Russia. OK?"

"What's going on is that I feel the pain of the people getting killed in Syria and Iraq and all over the Muslim (unidentified word)."

"The air strike that killed Abu Wahid a few weeks ago... that's what triggered it, okay? They should have not bombed and killed Abu Wahid."

He also had several Facebook accounts where he posted criticism of US involvement in the Middle East long before the attack.

A guy who was loud, excitable, had a history with steroids, and had a religiously driven bias against same sex, women, and interracial couples (his father even described it as he would get visibly physically angry at the sight of gay couples and assertive women), and we're supposed to believe the thing that set him off and specifically targeted a gay club was US foreign policy gripes?

The Pulse night club wasn't his first target. According to court documents from his wife's trial, he had initially planned to carry out his attack at the Disney Springs entertainment complex. The Pulse night club wasn't chosen until an hour before the attack and he likely didn't know that the Pulse was a gay bar.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Incorrect. We are Israel’s ally, they are not ours.

We've given them 30B in economic aid over the last decade, they've given us (checks numbers) .... 0

Although, on the monetary front, that's true of pretty much every other country on the planet as well.

 

[Desk trauma]

We've given them 30B in economic aid over the last decade, they've given us (checks numbers) .... 0

Although, on the monetary front, that's true of pretty much every other country on the planet as well.

I guess you could count all the lobbying money…

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Incorrect. We are Israel’s ally, they are not ours.

Wrong...Israel IS one of our strongest allies. Israel provides a strategic American foothold in the region as well as intelligence and advanced technological partnerships.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Wrong...Israel IS one of our strongest allies. Israel provides a strategic American foothold in the region as well as intelligence and advanced technological partnerships.

I'd argue that with the size and scope of our military, we could have a foothold wherever we choose to put our feet.

The intelligence they provide to us is often "skewed in their favor"

The advanced technological partnership is a 80/20 split. (and their 20% has been developed using mostly our dollars)


Anyone familiar with my prior posts knows I'm by no means a Palestinian sympathizer by any stretch of the imagination, however, nobody should kid themselves about the US/Israel partnership being an "even Steven" relationship.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So you're saying there's literally nothing they could do with the money we give them that could give you pause or reconsideration?

For instance, if they were to do something extreme with it...like euthanize people with mental disabilities -- that still wouldn't be a red line and you say "keep giving money to Israel, because they're Israel"?

Are Israel euthanizing people with mental disabilities today? If the answer is no, then I have no interest in hypothetical.

 

[Desk trauma]

Wrong...Israel IS one of our strongest allies. Israel provides a strategic American foothold in the region as well as intelligence and advanced technological partnerships.

Yeah that’s the propaganda. Reality is it’s a totally one way relationship with us subsidizing and enabling Israel for no benefit to US interests.

 

[durangodawood]

Are Israel euthanizing people with mental disabilities today? If the answer is no, then I have no interest in hypothetical.

If your position is no conditions, then theres no need to imagine hypotheticals because nothing they could do would change your support.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Are Israel euthanizing people with mental disabilities today? If the answer is no, then I have no interest in hypothetical.

Then let's go with a non-hypothetical.

Over 70% of Gaza's civilian infrastructure has been damaged/destroyed (most of it housing)

While I've been openly critical of Hamas's tactic of using civilian infrastructure to house/hide munitions and equipment, it's certainly not the case where 70% of it was being used for that. The destruction of civilian sites far exceeds what could be explained solely by Hamas’s military use of such infrastructure. Even the most "give Israel the benefit of the doubt" conservative sources (like Fox News pundits and the like) were giving speculative estimates of 10-15%.


Even if my own family member was the target of some sort of looming threat of violence, and I gave him the money to procure some sort of self defense implement, and he used it to indiscriminately start doing damage to every hospital, house, school, and restaurant in a 5 mile radius based on an assessment that was no more scientific than "The bully might be hiding in one of those places, they've done it before, so I'm going to just preemptively target all of them with the buckshot approach" -- we'd be having a little chat and some ground rules would be set before they got any more of my help.


I'm not so naive as to think there can't be any collateral damage in war...war is ugly. I'm not even holding it to a rigid "even 1 is too many" or "1:1 ratio"

If taking out 3 really bad guys at the top of the organization food chain involves an operation that causes a handful of collateral causalities (as unpopular as it may be to say), Israel could make that case with me.


But, when you're talking about numbers like 60,000 dead and 70% of those are civilians (and the percentage is likely even higher, that "20,000 of them were combatants" is based on Israel's claim which they've never substantiated with anything other than their word, US intelligence suggests the number is more like 10,000, and even that's probably being generous to Israel given our relationship with them)

That's not anything resembling a "strategic operation" that "allows for some unfortunate casualties" anymore , that's just using the buckshot "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" approach, and hoping that some were Hamas members after the fact.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Yeah that’s the propaganda. Reality is it’s a totally one way relationship with us subsidizing and enabling Israel for no benefit to US interests.

The U.S.–Israel alliance brings a wide range of strategic, economic, and technological benefits to the United States. Here’s a breakdown of how this partnership serves American interests:


️ Strategic & Military Cooperation

• Intelligence Sharing: Israel provides high-value intelligence on Middle Eastern threats, including terrorism and weapons proliferation.
• Defense Innovation: Joint development of systems like the Iron Dome and David’s Sling enhances U.S. missile defense capabilities.
• Military Testing Ground: Israel’s battlefield experience offers insights into modern warfare, helping the U.S. refine its own tactics and technologies.
• Forward Presence: Israel acts as a strategic outpost in a volatile region, allowing the U.S. to project power without deploying large numbers of troops.

Economic & Technological Gains

• Tech Collaboration: Israel’s thriving startup ecosystem—second only to Silicon Valley—drives innovation in cybersecurity, AI, and medical tech.
• Job Creation: Bilateral trade and Israeli investment in the U.S. support over 250,000 American jobs, especially in states like California and Massachusetts.
• Clean Energy & Sustainability: Israeli advances in water purification, solar energy, and agriculture contribute to U.S. environmental goals.

Cultural & Ideological Alignment

• Shared Democratic Values: Both nations emphasize pluralism, rule of law, and free elections, reinforcing mutual trust and cooperation.
• Public Support: Strong backing from American Jewish and Evangelical communities bolsters bipartisan political support for Israel.

Diplomatic Leverage

• Regional Stability: Israel’s peace treaties and growing ties with Arab states (e.g., Abraham Accords) help stabilize the Middle East.
• Counterterrorism: Israel’s experience in countering extremist groups complements U.S. efforts in global anti-terror operations.

 

[Pommer]

Wrong...Israel IS one of our strongest allies. Israel provides a strategic American foothold in the region as well as intelligence and advanced technological partnerships.

They spy on us more than many of our “enemies”.

 

[Desk trauma]

The U.S.–Israel alliance brings a wide range of strategic, economic, and technological benefits to the United States. Here’s a breakdown of how this partnership serves American interests:


️ Strategic & Military Cooperation

• Intelligence Sharing: Israel provides high-value intelligence on Middle Eastern threats, including terrorism and weapons proliferation.
• Defense Innovation: Joint development of systems like the Iron Dome and David’s Sling enhances U.S. missile defense capabilities.
• Military Testing Ground: Israel’s battlefield experience offers insights into modern warfare, helping the U.S. refine its own tactics and technologies.
• Forward Presence: Israel acts as a strategic outpost in a volatile region, allowing the U.S. to project power without deploying large numbers of troops.

Economic & Technological Gains

• Tech Collaboration: Israel’s thriving startup ecosystem—second only to Silicon Valley—drives innovation in cybersecurity, AI, and medical tech.
• Job Creation: Bilateral trade and Israeli investment in the U.S. support over 250,000 American jobs, especially in states like California and Massachusetts.
• Clean Energy & Sustainability: Israeli advances in water purification, solar energy, and agriculture contribute to U.S. environmental goals.

Cultural & Ideological Alignment

• Shared Democratic Values: Both nations emphasize pluralism, rule of law, and free elections, reinforcing mutual trust and cooperation.
• Public Support: Strong backing from American Jewish and Evangelical communities bolsters bipartisan political support for Israel.

Diplomatic Leverage

• Regional Stability: Israel’s peace treaties and growing ties with Arab states (e.g., Abraham Accords) help stabilize the Middle East.
• Counterterrorism: Israel’s experience in countering extremist groups complements U.S. efforts in global anti-terror operations.

Thanks for the AIPAC copypasta.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Thanks for the AIPAC copypasta.

Sorry if it embarrassed you.

 

[Desk trauma]

Sorry if it embarrassed you.

Get your mind reading device checked it’s giving inaccurate data.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Then let's go with a non-hypothetical.

Over 70% of Gaza's civilian infrastructure has been damaged/destroyed (most of it housing)

While I've been openly critical of Hamas's tactic of using civilian infrastructure to house/hide munitions and equipment, it's certainly not the case where 70% of it was being used for that. The destruction of civilian sites far exceeds what could be explained solely by Hamas’s military use of such infrastructure. Even the most "give Israel the benefit of the doubt" conservative sources (like Fox News pundits and the like) were giving speculative estimates of 10-15%.


Even if my own family member was the target of some sort of looming threat of violence, and I gave him the money to procure some sort of self defense implement, and he used it to indiscriminately start doing damage to every hospital, house, school, and restaurant in a 5 mile radius based on an assessment that was no more scientific than "The bully might be hiding in one of those places, they've done it before, so I'm going to just preemptively target all of them with the buckshot approach" -- we'd be having a little chat and some ground rules would be set before they got any more of my help.


I'm not so naive as to think there can't be any collateral damage in war...war is ugly. I'm not even holding it to a rigid "even 1 is too many" or "1:1 ratio"

If taking out 3 really bad guys at the top of the organization food chain involves an operation that causes a handful of collateral causalities (as unpopular as it may be to say), Israel could make that case with me.


But, when you're talking about numbers like 60,000 dead and 70% of those are civilians (and the percentage is likely even higher, that "20,000 of them were combatants" is based on Israel's claim which they've never substantiated with anything other than their word, US intelligence suggests the number is more like 10,000, and even that's probably being generous to Israel given our relationship with them)

That's not anything resembling a "strategic operation" that "allows for some unfortunate casualties" anymore , that's just using the buckshot "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" approach, and hoping that some were Hamas members after the fact.

Here are some status before the war


Life in GAZA

1. GDP per capita $5K
2. Unemployment rate 25%
3. Infant Morality 12%
4. Maternal Morality 20%
5. Below poverty level 60%
6. Safe drinking Water 80%

This describes life in Gaza before Israel took any action, when the world sent $2 billion annually in aid.

I never heard anyone complain about the life in Gaza under their elected officials, Hamas.

Suddenly, many people are concerned about 70% of civilian infrastructure in Gaza.

Where were they when 60% of Gaza's civilians lived in poverty and only 80% had access to safe drinking water?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The intelligence they provide to us is often "skewed in their favor"

The advanced technological partnership is a 80/20 split. (and their 20% has been developed using mostly our dollars)

No it isn't. We provide intelligence that we can and so do they. Israel is VERY high tech. We support our ally. the US invests in to technology here and abroad if it is in our interests...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They spy on us more than many of our “enemies”.

all countries spy on their allies as well as enemies...

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

If your position is no conditions, then theres no need to imagine hypotheticals because nothing they could do would change your support.

There is a reason why, since World War II, the United States, NATO, and many other Western democracies have formed alliances and cooperated closely. Despite cultural differences, countries such as India and former adversary Japan are now among America's closest allies. In democratic societies, established norms and codes of conduct are consistently upheld despite varying perspectives. This commitment to shared values is why the United States often leads coalitions in support of democracy. Israel is part of the coalition and is the only full democracy in the Middle East. While we do not support every action taken by Israel, just as we sometimes disagree with France or the UK, they remain our closest allies. As long as democracy endures in these countries and we uphold our values, our alliance will remain strong.