Is This The New Normal?

[rjs330]

“Just following orders” was repudiated in 1946-47; has there been a rescinding of this “principle“?

Immigration law has been a part of this country for a very long time. Its supported by the constitution. Enforcing a constitutionally established law is not rhe same thing as "just following orders." Geez do you say the same thing to the IRS when they seize people's property for not paying their taxes.

I guess we shouldn't enforce that either? What kind of nonsense are you trying to pull?

 

[rjs330]

My main issue with immigration theater is that if they really cared about enforcing the borders they'd be enforcing the penalties on employers rather than rounding up laborers. Disincentivize hiring people here illegally at the expense of the citizenry and the bulk of the issue goes away on its own, no deportations necessary. But they'd rather put on a show and spread terror than actually engage in effective policy action.

I dont disagree. But are you saying rhat because they havent done that on a regular basis we should not enforce other immigration law?

Do you have any idea what it takes to prosecute an employer for that? How hard that is to prove? I'm not saying they shouldn't they should. But because one is far more difficult to enforce doeant mean we shouldnt enforce another part. Correct?

 

[Fervent]

I dont disagree. But are you saying rhat because they havent done that on a regular basis we should not enforce other immigration law?

No, I'm simply saying that the way they're going about it makes it seem like they're more interested in making a show of it rather than actually addressing the issue.

Do you have any idea what it takes to prosecute an employer for that? How hard that is to prove? I'm not saying they shouldn't they should. But because one is far more difficult to enforce doeant mean we shouldnt enforce another part. Correct?

So let's just go for the low hanging fruit, despite the fact that so long as the employers continue to have incentives to employing people here illegally there will continue to be people willing to risk it and the influx will continue.

 

[JosephZ]

It would be more accurate to ask, what has Mayor Bass NOT lied about.

(staff edit)

I read the article twice and can't find where she lied.

Militarized federal agents, with the assistance of the military, conducting raids on city streets and public parks is "outrageous" and "un-American" as Mayor Bass stated.

The article goes on to say:

Bass claimed on social media that there were children playing at the park. -- True

"Minutes before, there were more than 20 kids playing, and then, the MILITARY comes through." -- True

"I went to the park to speak to the person in charge to tell them it needed to end NOW." -- True

 

[rjs330]

No, I'm simply saying that the way they're going about it makes it seem like they're more interested in making a show of it rather than actually addressing the issue.

So let's just go for the low hanging fruit, despite the fact that so long as the employers continue to have incentives to employing people here illegally there will continue to be people willing to risk it and the influx will continue.

Completely understand. It only seems like a show because media and left and other citizens and illegals have made it a show. If they would have just let them do their job, make their raids and pick up illegals there would just be action.

But because we have leftist politicians, media, and Americans siding with illegals and their actions to obstruct and attack this has been a necessary response.

The DOJ has pledged to go after employers too. But with what it takes to prove the issues it makes it a long arduous process to try and prove it.

Do you think we should not go after illegals?

 

[Saucy]

Why? Why do you wish to see our country turned into a police state?

Obama somehow managed to do just that at greater numbers and never had to turn any US city into Falujah to get it done.


I don’t believe you. If you support terrorizing American citizens with their own military like this, I highly doubt you’re gonna be so welcoming to foreigners.

Um, Obama did carry out ICE raids in people's homes and businesses. Obama is the one who built the cages to house kids, separated families, and all that stuff the left says Trump is racist for, while pretending he started all of that and is so, so cruel for doing it. This has been going on for a long time. Do you remember Elian Gonzalez under Clinton, who sent men with guns to snatch a 6-year-old? It's just selective outrage and short memories for Democrats who only pretend it's racist when it's a Republican in office.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/obama-family-deportation-raids-217329

 

[Saucy]

Btw, I'd rather have cities that have a bit of law and order, where criminals are being rounded up and carried out, than anything these Democrat sanctuary cities are doing, where crime is rampant and goes unpunished. Only in liberal cities can you riot, smash windows, burn cars, take over entire city blocks, get arrested by evil law enforcement agents, then turn around and get bailed out by Democrat officials (Like Kamala Harris) so you can go back out and do it again.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Um, Obama did carry out ICE raids in people's homes and businesses. Obama is the one who built the cages to house kids, separated families, and all that stuff the left says Trump is racist for, while pretending he started all of that and is so, so cruel for doing it. This has been going on for a long time. Do you remember Elian Gonzalez under Clinton, who sent men with guns to snatch a 6-year-old? It's just selective outrage and short memories for Democrats who only pretend it's racist when it's a Republican in office.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/obama-family-deportation-raids-217329

Cool. Throw Obama in jail for the rest if his life for all I care.

We’re dealing with an entirely new president now, if you’d like to join us.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Btw, I'd rather have cities that have a bit of law and order, where criminals are being rounded up and carried out, than anything these Democrat sanctuary cities are doing, where crime is rampant and goes unpunished. Only in liberal cities can you riot, smash windows, burn cars, take over entire city blocks, get arrested by evil law enforcement agents, then turn around and get bailed out by Democrat officials (Like Kamala Harris) so you can go back out and do it again.

Do you live in one of these cities?

 

[Vambram]

I read the article twice and can't find where she lied.

Militarized federal agents, with the assistance of the military, conducting raids on city streets and public parks is "outrageous" and "un-American" as Mayor Bass stated.

The article goes on to say:

Bass claimed on social media that there were children playing at the park. -- True

"Minutes before, there were more than 20 kids playing, and then, the MILITARY comes through." -- True

"I went to the park to speak to the person in charge to tell them it needed to end NOW." -- True

Read the rest of the quotes in the article which refutes what she said.

 

[Vambram]

Um, Obama did carry out ICE raids in people's homes and businesses. Obama is the one who built the cages to house kids, separated families, and all that stuff the left says Trump is racist for, while pretending he started all of that and is so, so cruel for doing it. This has been going on for a long time. Do you remember Elian Gonzalez under Clinton, who sent men with guns to snatch a 6-year-old? It's just selective outrage and short memories for Democrats who only pretend it's racist when it's a Republican in office.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/obama-family-deportation-raids-217329

Btw, I'd rather have cities that have a bit of law and order, where criminals are being rounded up and carried out, than anything these Democrat sanctuary cities are doing, where crime is rampant and goes unpunished. Only in liberal cities can you riot, smash windows, burn cars, take over entire city blocks, get arrested by evil law enforcement agents, then turn around and get bailed out by Democrat officials (Like Kamala Harris) so you can go back out and do it again.

These 2 posts are amongst the very best and top 5 posts in this thread, in my opinion. Thank you @Saucy

 

[Vambram]

Cool. Throw Obama in jail for the rest if his life for all I care.

We’re dealing with an entirely new president now, if you’d like to join us.

This appears to be selective outrage. The Democratic Party supporters were probably just fine with President Obama putting illegal immigrants in cages and separating families.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

This appears to be selective outrage. The Democratic Party supporters were probably just fine with President Obama putting illegal immigrants in cages and separating families.

No there were plenty of protests against Obama’s immigration policies as well. You just didn’t care back then because the narrative on the right was that Obama wasn’t enforcing immigration laws.

Turns out he was even better at it than Trump!

 

[Vambram]

No there were plenty of protests against Obama’s immigration policies as well. You just didn’t care back then because the narrative on the right was that Obama wasn’t enforcing immigration laws.

Turns out he was even better at it than Trump!

Obama didn't have to try to clean up the illegal actions of the Biden administration which allowed millions upon millions of illegal immigrants to flood into the United States of America.

 

[Fervent]

Completely understand. It only seems like a show because media and left and other citizens and illegals have made it a show. If they would have just let them do their job, make their raids and pick up illegals there would just be action.

No, it seems like a show because they're making a show of it. It's immigration theater, highly visible actions with little actual impact.

But because we have leftist politicians, media, and Americans siding with illegals and their actions to obstruct and attack this has been a necessary response.

The obstruction is an issue, but it's not the full story. The actions they've taken are not going to have a major impact, but instead are manufactured to produce the kind of outrage they're producing even though they really don't make a dent in the problem.

The DOJ has pledged to go after employers too. But with what it takes to prove the issues it makes it a long arduous process to try and prove it.

"Pledged"....I'll believe it when I see it.

Do you think we should not go after illegals?

I think it's a mismanagement of resources, because the heart of the problem goes largely unaddressed in exchange for flashy, but ultimately futile, enforcement operations. Stemming the flow requires addressing the incentives, not rounding up a few dozen unfortunates.

 

[JosephZ]

Read the rest of the quotes in the article which refutes what she said.

I can't find anything in the article that refutes what she said.

 

[Gene2memE]

This appears to be selective outrage. The Democratic Party supporters were probably just fine with President Obama putting illegal immigrants in cages and separating families.

They most certainly weren't. It was one of the things that dogged the Obama administration throughout its tenure.

See this post for some details: Karoline Leavitt accuses CNN of 'encouraging violence' against agents for reports on new ICE tracking app

Obama didn't have to try to clean up the illegal actions of the Biden administration which allowed millions upon millions of illegal immigrants to flood into the United States of America.

Weird political mudslinging aside, the Obama administration did have to deal with "millions upon millions" of undocumented migrants. The George W Bush administration averaged just under 1.2 million border encounters per year, with a known "gotaway" rate of above 30%. It also had to deal with the 2013/2014 'Border crisis' which saw the Obama administration conduct record numbers of migrant expulsions.

The Obama administration dealt with a very similar situation to that faced by the Trump administration currently - it came into power as border crossings were rapidly dropping after a spike during the previous administration.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Obama didn't have to try to clean up the illegal actions of the Biden administration which allowed millions upon millions of illegal immigrants to flood into the United States of America.

Uh huh. And Trump never campaigned on the issue of immigration not being addressed by the Obama administration.

 

[rjs330]

No, it seems like a show because they're making a show of it. It's immigration theater, highly visible actions with little actual impact.

It seems like a show because of the media and leftist politicians, and leftist citizens and illegals attacking and obstructing. They created the necessity of these actions by their actions.

Mobile phones video taping LE actions then propegandizing the actions. Actions that are perfectly legal and appropriate. Twisting to make it seem like its not. Plain clothes suddenly become horrible. Claiming there were no warrants as if thats somehow bad or illegal when its not. People being placed in unmarked vans and accusing them of being like the 3rd Reich or KGB, when this has been standard police practice and perfectly legal for our entire history.

The obstruction is an issue, but it's not the full story. The actions they've taken are not going to have a major impact, but instead are manufactured to produce the kind of outrage they're producing even though they really don't make a dent in the problem.

Actions have been taken to protect and prevent the attacks and obstructions. The left is doing all they can to manufacture outrage. And I noticed you only used "obstruction" as a problem. When the problems are even bigger. Like assault, and threats to officers families.

"Pledged"....I'll believe it when I see it.

Me too.

I think it's a mismanagement of resources, because the heart of the problem goes largely unaddressed in exchange for flashy, but ultimately futile, enforcement operations. Stemming the flow requires addressing the incentives, not rounding up a few dozen unfortunates.

Yes the heart if the problem is past administrations failures to stem the tide of illegals and inviting them in.

Are you for then rounding up all those farmers who are using illegals too? Every hotel manager, every contractor, every McDonalds manager, every local business?

Until you do that you have to prove that every single one of them KNEW the person was illegal.

This is a two pronged probelm. And whether or not prosecutions are made against managers who actually do the hiring, its still against the law to come here illegally. And since ICE the is primarily ICEs job thats what rhey should do. We've already seen that DHS has teemed up with other LE including the IRS when raiding businesses. And it takes months and months of investigations, interviews etc to pin down businesses. And of course when people assert their rights then its even harder. Or did you forget that? You then have to prove it another way. And since we've seen that illegals will steal others identities including SSN well, its nearly impossible to prove the manager knew.

Oh yeah, not saying it cant be done, its just not as easy as "hey just charge the business."

 

[rjs330]

They most certainly weren't. It was one of the things that dogged the Obama administration throughout its tenure.

See this post for some details: Karoline Leavitt accuses CNN of 'encouraging violence' against agents for reports on new ICE tracking app



Weird political mudslinging aside, the Obama administration did have to deal with "millions upon millions" of undocumented migrants. The George W Bush administration averaged just under 1.2 million border encounters per year, with a known "gotaway" rate of above 30%. It also had to deal with the 2013/2014 'Border crisis' which saw the Obama administration conduct record numbers of migrant expulsions.

The Obama administration dealt with a very similar situation to that faced by the Trump administration currently - it came into power as border crossings were rapidly dropping after a spike during the previous administration.

The thing is you guys didn't care when Obama did it. Because it was Obama.