EXCLUSIVE: Official Vatican Report Exposes Major Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes

[Gnarwhal]

The CDF report confirmed Benedict’s intuition, expressed in Summorum Pontificum, that younger people would find in the traditional Roman liturgy “a form of encounter with the mystery of the Holy Eucharistic particularly suited to them.” It notes:

“A constant observation made by the bishops is that it is young people who are discovering and choosing this older form of the liturgy. The majority of the stable groups present in the Catholic world are composed of young people, often converts to the Catholic faith or those returning after a time away from the Church and the sacraments. They are drawn by the sacredness, seriousness, and solemnity of the liturgy. What strikes them most, also amid a society that is excessively noisy and verbose, is the rediscovery of silence within sacred actions, the restrained and essential words, preaching that is faithful to the Church’s doctrine, the beauty of liturgical chant, and the dignity of the celebration: a seamless whole that is deeply attractive.”

EXCLUSIVE: Official Vatican Report Exposes Major Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes

Previously undisclosed documents raise serious questions about the stated rationale for Pope Francis’ 2021 decree restricting the Traditional Latin Mass.

dianemontagna.substack.com

 

[Michie]

#7-Let the people be free to choose.

It is what I have always said. I was taught the Church is big enough for both the NO and TLM. I do not understand the hostility to the TLM.

 

[chevyontheriver]

#7-Let the people be free to choose.

It is what I have always said. I was taught the Church is big enough for both the NO and TLM. I do not understand the hostility to the TLM.

If the Church is big enough for about 23 different rites it is big enough for the TLM.

Consistent anti-TLM activism would also shut down those other rites, God forbid.

If there is room for the TLM and for the Anglican Ordinariates there is also room for a Lutheran Ordinariate and Orthodox rites and a Moravian Ordinariate and maybe an Amish Ordinariate. If there is no room for the TLM I would be one worried Anglican Ordinariate member and very leery if I were Orthodox or Lutheran thinking of becoming Catholic. In particular if there is no room in the Catholic Church for the TLM the Orthodox will see there is no room for them. The TLM MUST be reallowed for the future of ecumenism.

 

[zippy2006]

Do we have the document this journalist is drawing from?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Do we have the document this journalist is drawing from?

Here is the story in some detail: EXCLUSIVE: Official Vatican Report Exposes Major Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes

Here is the underlying summary document: https://dianemontagna.substack.com/api/v1/file/9a37b1bb-b3e2-4d0d-96cf-eb34269e165d.pdf

Diane Montagna does seem to me to be an honest and careful reporter. I hope this story shakes loose the 'part 1' report in it's greater detail. As it is, the summary confirms the suspicions that there was no overwhelming reason to suppress the TLM by pope Francis though he claimed there was solid episcopal consensus that it needed to be suppressed.

Particularly interesting in light of the suppression now going on in Detroit is the comment of former archbishop Vigneron for this survey which has also been made public. No problem in Detroit. No change needed.

 

[RileyG]

#7-Let the people be free to choose.

It is what I have always said. I was taught the Church is big enough for both the NO and TLM. I do not understand the hostility to the TLM.

Me either! Thankfully there is a chapel in my city that offers the TLM from the FSSP. It’s quite well attended!

 

[RileyG]

If the Church is big enough for about 23 different rites it is big enough for the TLM.

Consistent anti-TLM activism would also shut down those other rites, God forbid.

If there is room for the TLM and for the Anglican Ordinariates there is also room for a Lutheran Ordinariate and Orthodox rites and a Moravian Ordinariate and maybe an Amish Ordinariate. If there is no room for the TLM I would be one worried Anglican Ordinariate member and very leery if I were Orthodox or Lutheran thinking of becoming Catholic. In particular if there is no room in the Catholic Church for the TLM the Orthodox will see there is no room for them. The TLM MUST be reallowed for the future of ecumenism.

I think a Lutheran Ordinariate, which could include Moravians, would be an excellent idea in the future! Only minor changes would probably occur based on everything I’ve read about the Lutheran liturgy.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Diane Montagna does seem to me to be an honest and careful reporter. I hope this story shakes loose the 'part 1' report in it's greater detail. As it is, the summary confirms the suspicions that there was no overwhelming reason to suppress the TLM by pope Francis though he claimed there was solid episcopal consensus that it needed to be suppressed.

Indeed, she's highly regarded and is accredited by the Vatican.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed, she's highly regarded and is accredited by the Vatican.

What I’m hearing now from pope Francis loyalists is what a bad reporter she is and how pope Francis relied on some other ‘hidden’ document to make his decision. Well, WHAT hidden document?

My hunch is that pope Francis decided based on feeling the need to punch ‘backwardists’ in the nose. Nothing based on any documents. Which all at the moment show no need to destroy Catholics based on liturgy. That he may have hoped that they/we would all leave and thus purify what remained of non-backwards Catholicism. But not enough people left, and so the mess pope Francis hoped for did not resolve in the way he hoped. He made a mess, and it backfired. Now pope Leo is stuck with it and probably needs to fix it quickly. If only pope Francis had left it alone. But he had to attack backwardists. Why are backwardists so evil?

 

[Michie]

Cue the hyperpapalists
​

Online defenders of Francis — for yes, they still exist, and rose up again out of the woodwork (relax, fellahs, he’s dead, you don’t have to defend his every word and action any more; indeed, you never did) — have made a rather pathetic showing, as Kevin Tierney explains in two pieces: “The Beginning of the End of Traditionis custodes” and “The Shifting Sands of Traditionis custodes” explains. For, no matter what line they take, they will have egg on their face in copious quantity.

Once again I had the opportunity to reflect on how hyperpapalism is a mental disorder. Have a look at this comment by someone online who calls himself “Pope Respecter” and the responses by LB236 and Hilary White:



A friend sent me a book about Napoleon III, and to be honest, my first reaction was: “Shucks, someone’s already taken the perfect title for a book on the last pontificate.”



The problem with the hyperpapalists is above all epistemological in nature: it has to do with the theory of how we know truth, how we can know what we know. Let me briefly explain.

Continued below.

Francis Caught Red-Handed & Weekly Roundup, July 4

Synodality bites the dust, gaslighting returns, externals matter, Spain lectures, round table, recommended reading

www.traditionsanity.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

Do we have the document this journalist is drawing from?

Did you notice a book was just published with the same exact contents and even more? It tells the same story too. And so pope Francis supporters are hypothesizing some third secret document that was the real basis for the decision. Uh huh.

Cue the hyperpapalists​

​

Online defenders of Francis — for yes, they still exist, and rose up again out of the woodwork (relax, fellahs, he’s dead, you don’t have to defend his every word and action any more; indeed, you never did) — have made a rather pathetic showing, as Kevin Tierney explains in two pieces: “The Beginning of the End of Traditionis custodes” and “The Shifting Sands of Traditionis custodes” explains. For, no matter what line they take, they will have egg on their face in copious quantity.

Once again I had the opportunity to reflect on how hyperpapalism is a mental disorder. Have a look at this comment by someone online who calls himself “Pope Respecter” and the responses by LB236 and Hilary White:


A friend sent me a book about Napoleon III, and to be honest, my first reaction was: “Shucks, someone’s already taken the perfect title for a book on the last pontificate.”


The problem with the hyperpapalists is above all epistemological in nature: it has to do with the theory of how we know truth, how we can know what we know. Let me briefly explain.

Continued below.

Francis Caught Red-Handed & Weekly Roundup, July 4

Synodality bites the dust, gaslighting returns, externals matter, Spain lectures, round table, recommended reading

www.traditionsanity.com

Yup. A lot of gaslighting and shadow.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Documents on Latin Mass assessment 'incomplete,' says Vatican​

Without verifying their authenticity, the director of the Holy See Press Office said that a series of documents purporting to reveal bishops' input into Pope Francis' decision to restrict celebrations of the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass are "incomplete."

EXCLUSIVE: Official Vatican Report Exposes Major Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes

The CDF report confirmed Benedict’s intuition, expressed in Summorum Pontificum, that younger people would find in the traditional Roman liturgy “a form of encounter with the mystery of the Holy Eucharistic particularly suited to them.” It notes: “A constant observation made by the bishops is...

www.christianforums.com

The report was biased based on the fact that Diane Montagna did not have access to the full document, but only leaks of sections which
were probably take out of context.

 

[Michie]

Tradition and transparency: Vatican speaks on Latin Mass documents

The Vatican disputes leaked documents on bishops' views behind Pope Francis’ 2021 limits on the Latin Mass, calling them incomplete.

www.oursundayvisitor.com

 

[zippy2006]

Here is the underlying summary document

Thanks. There are obviously a lot of theories swirling around, so it's nice to have actual documents instead of hearsay.

The problem with this from the beginning was that Pope Francis made a claim about the opinion of the worldwide bishops without releasing any evidence for his claim. Imagine if Trump conducted a secret poll of all the American people, made a drastic change based on that poll, and refused to release the poll data. That's actually called "tyranny," however we want to sugar-coat it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thanks. There are obviously a lot of theories swirling around, so it's nice to have actual documents instead of hearsay.

The problem with this from the beginning was that Pope Francis made a claim about the opinion of the worldwide bishops without releasing any evidence for his claim. Imagine if Trump conducted a secret poll of all the American people, made a drastic change based on that poll, and refused to release the poll data. That's actually called "tyranny," however we want to sugar-coat it.

It's my guess, and purely a guess that Pope Francis was asked not to reveal the results of the poll, so as
to not make it look like his decision was based on a poll. There has been a call for quite a while now that
polls should be taken on other issues as well as this one. That's not going to happen.

We can see the damage speculation by Diane Montagna made on the report which is causing deeper
divisions within the Church.

A similar thing happened to Pope Paul VI before he issued Humane Vitae. The commission he formed
provided a report that no one saw, but was revealed my members of the commission later,
which stated that married couples could use artificial birth control as long as it was not done for
selfish purposes.

 

[zippy2006]

It's my guess, and purely a guess that Pope Francis was asked not to reveal the results of the poll, so as
to not make it look like his decision was based on a poll.

He basically claimed that his action was based on the consensus of the worldwide bishops. If you don't want to release the poll, then you shouldn't claim that your action is based on it.

A similar thing happened to Pope Paul VI before he issued Humane Vitae. The commission he formed
provided a report that no one saw, but was revealed my members of the commission later,
which stated that married couples could use artificial birth control as long as it was not done for
selfish purposes.

That's different, insofar as the pope sided with the minority and did not base his decision on the consensus of the working group. If Paul VI had said that his decision was based on the consensus of the working group, and then someone leaked the documents, then that case would be similar to this one. The only outcome of that leak was, "Paul VI disagreed with the majority of those he consulted." The potential outcome of this leak is, "Francis lied about the poll." This is much more significant.

 

[Gnarwhal]

What I’m hearing now from pope Francis loyalists is what a bad reporter she is and how pope Francis relied on some other ‘hidden’ document to make his decision. Well, WHAT hidden document?

Classy move by the progressive wing to smear a reporter. Too bad for them Montagna's credentials were established long before this story broke.

My hunch is that pope Francis decided based on feeling the need to punch ‘backwardists’ in the nose. Nothing based on any documents. Which all at the moment show no need to destroy Catholics based on liturgy. That he may have hoped that they/we would all leave and thus purify what remained of non-backwards Catholicism. But not enough people left, and so the mess pope Francis hoped for did not resolve in the way he hoped. He made a mess, and it backfired. Now pope Leo is stuck with it and probably needs to fix it quickly. If only pope Francis had left it alone. But he had to attack backwardists. Why are backwardists so evil?

He might've seen a tiny bit of thread to pull on and ran with it but ultimately his rationale was contradicted. I also have to consider Ryan Grant's suggestion that it's entirely possible he was presented with different information than what the survey reported and acted based on that. I think there are plenty of Cardinals who aren't above lying and twisting things, even to the Holy Father, in order to get what they want: which is to see trads suffer.

 

[zippy2006]

it's entirely possible he was presented with different information than what the survey reported and acted based on that.

True.

I think Rome basically needs to release the contextual information if they are going to claim that contextual information is important. ...lol

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks. There are obviously a lot of theories swirling around, so it's nice to have actual documents instead of hearsay.

The problem with this from the beginning was that Pope Francis made a claim about the opinion of the worldwide bishops without releasing any evidence for his claim. Imagine if Trump conducted a secret poll of all the American people, made a drastic change based on that poll, and refused to release the poll data. That's actually called "tyranny," however we want to sugar-coat it.

Diane Montagna was very up front that she only had the summary. The book just published two days ago looks like it has the national results and appears to be the other part of the report. But it seems like the hyperpapalists are now beginning to claim that there is another secret part of the report with the REAL reason pope Francis felt himself compelled to do as he did. Being ‘secret’ there isn’t much evidence for the existence of this document. Even if it is contrary to the known two parts of the report.

I wish somebody I could trust would get to the truth of it all. I think Msgr Bux and Diane Montagna fit the bill as people I can trust. Waiting to see how they follow it up.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

He basically claimed that his action was based on the consensus of the worldwide bishops. If you don't want to release the poll, then you shouldn't claim that your action is based on it.

What he actually said according to this article.

In March 2020, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s prefect Cardinal Luis Ladaria wrote to the presidents of bishops’ conferences, asking them to distribute a questionnaire about how Benedict XVI’s Latin Mass rules affected bishops’ dioceses.

Pope Francis said the responses to the survey “reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene.”

Traditionis Custodes: What you need to know about the Traditional Mass restrictions

New moves by Pope Francis mean changes for Catholics dedicated to the Traditional Latin Mass —and for the priests and bishops responsible for these communities.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Pope Francis didn't say one way or another what was in the survey. Perhaps it merely revealed the division that exist
in the Church, which saddens him.