The rise of Democratic Socialism

[Landon Caeli]

USA just do not know how to work with them. How to work with mentally ill people, how to work with addicts.

Just because you and I don't like the homeless life, does not mean we can force others to live as we do. Or can we? Is it against people's will that it's accomplished in Europe?

 

[Landon Caeli]

USA still try to work with problematic people like in the 19th century.

Actually, we've become extremely weak (progressive) on drug use, by decriminalizing it.

 

[trophy33]

Just because you and I don't like the homeless life, does not mean we can force others to live as we do. Or can we? Is it against people's will that it's accomplished in Europe?

I guess every successful country has its own flavor how they managed to do it, but there are some common grounds. AI summarized it:

Health-Centered, Non-Punitive Approach: Treating addiction as a health issue rather than a criminal one, focusing on support and rehabilitation instead of punishment.

Comprehensive Harm Reduction Services: Wide availability of needle and syringe programs, supervised consumption rooms, and take-home naloxone to prevent overdoses and reduce health risks.

Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT): Broad access to opioid substitution therapies such as methadone, buprenorphine, and in some cases heroin-assisted treatment for severe cases, improving treatment retention and health outcomes.

Low-Threshold Access to Treatment: Removing barriers so that drug users can enter treatment quickly without mandatory abstinence or heavy restrictions.

Integrated Social and Medical Support: Combining addiction treatment with social services, mental health care, housing, and counseling to address the whole person and their environment.

Community-Based and Residential Treatment Options: Offering a range of treatment modalities including therapeutic communities and residential programs that focus on recovery beyond detoxification.

Public Funding and Universal Healthcare: Ensuring treatment and harm reduction services are publicly funded and accessible to all, removing financial barriers.

Focus on Prevention and Early Intervention: Implementing school programs, community outreach, and early detection to prevent addiction and support at-risk populations.

Or here is some US-based article: Lessons from Abroad: How Europeans have tackled opioid addiction and what the U.S. could learn from them.

 

[trophy33]

Actually, we've become extremely weak (progressive) on drug use, by decriminalizing it.

You have one of the highest incarceration rate in the whole world. Truly the land of the free.

The USA - approximately 580 per 100,000 residents. The EU from 50 to 150 per 100,000.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I guess every successful country has its own flavor how they managed to do it, but there are some common grounds. AI summarized it:

Health-Centered, Non-Punitive Approach: Treating addiction as a health issue rather than a criminal one, focusing on support and rehabilitation instead of punishment.

Comprehensive Harm Reduction Services: Wide availability of needle and syringe programs, supervised consumption rooms, and take-home naloxone to prevent overdoses and reduce health risks.

Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT): Broad access to opioid substitution therapies such as methadone, buprenorphine, and in some cases heroin-assisted treatment for severe cases, improving treatment retention and health outcomes.

Low-Threshold Access to Treatment: Removing barriers so that drug users can enter treatment quickly without mandatory abstinence or heavy restrictions.

Integrated Social and Medical Support: Combining addiction treatment with social services, mental health care, housing, and counseling to address the whole person and their environment.

Community-Based and Residential Treatment Options: Offering a range of treatment modalities including therapeutic communities and residential programs that focus on recovery beyond detoxification.

Public Funding and Universal Healthcare: Ensuring treatment and harm reduction services are publicly funded and accessible to all, removing financial barriers.

Focus on Prevention and Early Intervention: Implementing school programs, community outreach, and early detection to prevent addiction and support at-risk populations.

Or there is some US-based article: Lessons from Abroad: How Europeans have tackled opioid addiction and what the U.S. could learn from them.

Over here, we let them do drugs in the open, on the streets. And we provide them with free food, narcan, and street "watchers" who call ambulances when people croak.

...It's actually more progressive than Europe, because we don't force people into designated areas against their will.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You have one of the highest incarceration rate in the whole world. Truly the land of the free.

True, we could allow the murders, assaults and theft to carry on without resistance. I suspect that *is* what people here actually want.

 

[trophy33]

Over here, we let them do drugs in the open, on the streets. And we provide them with free food, narcan, and street "watchers" who call ambulances when people croak.

...It's actually more progressive than Europe, because we don't force people into designated areas against their will.

You think it is better to let them live like animals on public streets and just call ambulance when they collapse or die than to work with them properly?

What about public health and safety?

 

[bèlla]

I think that if the Bible authors knew about social democracy as is implemented in countries like Scandinavia, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands etc., which eliminated the worst forms of poverty and created the most advanced social mobility in history, they would recommend this system wholeheartedly.

This is the reality of democracy. You can’t have it both ways. If you want the freedom of being heard you must accept that others will disagree. They can find that information in minutes like I did.

Austria has the 4th largest personal income tax rate at 55% and 20% sales tax.
The Netherlands are 10th and their rate is 49.5% and 21%.
Switzerland is 40% and 8.1%.
Scandinavia wasn’t listed.

While our highest is 37% and applies to people earning over $610,000 per year.

We don’t have blanket consensus on the issue among christians let alone our citizens. The elephant in the room is less. We can talk about inclusion and policies until we get to the part of who pays. That’s the linchpin. Many will sacrifice for their loved ones and friends to some degree. They’ll help strangers too. But they’re not going to compromise what matters most for others.

In 2020, Biden slightly improved with voters earning under $50,000 annually, garnering 54% support, and with those making $50,000-$100,000, earning 56%. However, in 2024, Trump flipped both income brackets, securing 50% support among voters making under $50,000 and 52% among those earning $50,000-$100,000. Trump’s success in winning working-class and lower- and middle-income support was in part due to inflation and his outreach to unions.

They supported a candidate who didn’t promise socialism and it wasn’t a priority.

~bella

 

[trophy33]

True, we could allow the murders, assaults and theft to carry on without resistance. I suspect that *is* what people here actually want.

Wild Wild West.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Wild Wild West.

Yes, "defund the police" = wild, wild west.

 

[bèlla]

I'm not sure how you turn that into "Stash your bread in offshore accounts," but OK.

That isn’t what the verse means at all. If you want to remain ignorant that’s your choice.

~bella

 

[trophy33]

This is the reality of democracy. You can’t have it both ways. If you want the freedom of being heard you must accept that others will disagree. They can find that information in minutes like I did.

Austria has the 4th largest personal income tax rate at 55% and 20% sales tax.
The Netherlands are 10th and their rate is 49.5% and 21%.
Switzerland is 40% and 8.1%.
Scandinavia wasn’t listed.

While our highest is 37% and applies to people earning over $610,000 per year.

We don’t have blanket consensus on the issue among christians let alone our citizens. The elephant in the room is less. We can talk about inclusion and policies until we get to the part of who pays. That’s the linchpin. Many will sacrifice for their loved ones and friends to some degree. They’ll help strangers too. But they’re not going to compromise what matters most for others.

In 2020, Biden slightly improved with voters earning under $50,000 annually, garnering 54% support, and with those making $50,000-$100,000, earning 56%. However, in 2024, Trump flipped both income brackets, securing 50% support among voters making under $50,000 and 52% among those earning $50,000-$100,000. Trump’s success in winning working-class and lower- and middle-income support was in part due to inflation and his outreach to unions.

They supported a candidate who didn’t promise socialism and it wasn’t a priority.

~bella

If we stick to what would Bible recommend, Bible would (in my opinion) certainly recommend higher taxes and social and health safety for all, with great social mobility. Against low personal taxes and the survival of the fittest and poor people lying naked on the streets or afraid to call an ambulance because they would not be able to afford it.

Even though the US has lower taxes, almost everybody there lives in a debt and the majority of people do not have any financial reserve. Something is not right. Because when you actually calculate it, high taxes and free health care, free education, long paid vacations, paid sick leave, free high quality services will actually make you wealthier and healthier than having lower taxes but paying 20 years for your University degree or for your cancer treatment or dentist.

 

[bèlla]

USA just do not know how to work with them. How to work with mentally ill people, how to work with addicts, how to work with people in prison etc.

USA still try to work with problematic people like in the 19th century.

Last Sunday a man drove to a church and got out of his car with two firearms and began shooting as he walked towards the building. They were in the middle of a play during service and there were a lot of women and children. Thankfully the employees were armed and the threat was neutralized or there could have been casualties. We know how to handle business when we have to.

Police credit staffers for stopping gunman at Wayne Co. church: They 'prevented a mass shooting'

Congregants were gathered Sunday for a special vacation Bible school service at CrossPointe Community Church when the shooting happened. A security guard killed gunman.

www.detroitnews.com

~bella

 

[Landon Caeli]

You think it is better to let them live like animals on public streets and just call ambulance when they collapse or die than to work with them properly?

What about public health and safety?

Well, they refuse to stay in shelters, because they don’t want to follow the rules.. They also don't like being observed like zoo animals when they're on drugs. So they leave.

Are you suggesting we arrest them for returning to the streets? To do so, would greatly increase the incarceration rate.

 

[BCP1928]

Well, they refuse to stay in shelters, because they don’t want to follow the rules.. They also don't like being observed like zoo animals when they're on drugs. So they leave.

Are you suggesting we arrest them for returning to the streets? To do so, would greatly increase the incarceration rate.

Couldn't you just deport them for not being Real True Americans?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Couldn't you just deport them for not being Real True Americans?

Yes, if they're here illegally, they can be deported.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, if they're here illegally, they can be deported.

Haven't figured out what to do with citizens who don't play the game the way they're supposed to?

 

[bèlla]

If we stick to what would Bible recommend, Bible would (in my opinion) certainly recommend higher taxes and social and health safety for all, with great social mobility. Against low personal taxes and the survival of the fittest and poor people lying naked on the streets or afraid to call an ambulance because they would not be able to afford it.

America isn’t a theocracy. We have freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. Which means one person’s beliefs won’t mirror another‘s. The majority rules. That doesn’t prohibit you from helping people or supporting organizations that do.

Even though the US has lower taxes, almost everybody there lives in a debt and the majority of people do not have any financial reserve. Something is not right. Because when you actually calculate it, high taxes and free health care, free education, free high quality services will actually make you wealthier than having lower taxes but paying 20 years for your University degree or for your cancer treatment or dentist.

Most Americans are financially illiterate. They aren’t taught how wealth is really built at home or in school. Which places them at a disadvantage. I have a different opinion about debt. The bible says the borrower is the slave of the lender. Before you get in debt you should learn the rudiments of money to go about it wisely.

As for resources, all health care isn’t equal nor is insurance or education and quality is subjective. What’s acceptable for one may be less so for another. And the best people of the lot aren’t working in those systems. If they were you wouldn’t have more expensive options for each. There’s a world outside the norm and when you discover it life looks different.

~bella

 

[Landon Caeli]

Haven't figured out what to do with citizens who don't play the game the way they're supposed to?

Oh, I don't care what people do - in certain areas. Just don't do it in my neighborhood, or around my kids.

 

[trophy33]

Oh, I don't care what people do - in certain areas. Just don't do it in my neighborhood, or around my kids.

Or else? You would suddenly not care about their freedom?